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Leafs 2012/2013 Schedule in 10 game chunks

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Things are starting to look bad.  This year's Carlyle team now has 1 less point after 27 games than last season's Wilson team after 27.

Leafs were 15-10-2 after 27 last season
Leafs are 15-11-1 currently.

Goal differential is also coming back down.  +2 after 27 games with Wilson, only +6 now with Carlyle.

29 goals against in the last 7 games.  Even the wins they were giving up way too many goals.
 
Zee said:
Things are starting to look bad.  This year's Carlyle team now has 1 less point after 27 games than last season's Wilson team after 27.

Even after 48 last season the Leafs had 53 or something points (probably off by 1 or 2, going from memory), and to make 8th this season it should probably take something like 55 I think?  It's more what happened after the first 27 last season, and what can't happen after 27 this season.  They just can't fall off completely.
 
Potvin29 said:
Zee said:
Things are starting to look bad.  This year's Carlyle team now has 1 less point after 27 games than last season's Wilson team after 27.

Even after 48 last season the Leafs had 53 or something points (probably off by 1 or 2, going from memory), and to make 8th this season it should probably take something like 55 I think?  It's more what happened after the first 27 last season, and what can't happen after 27 this season.  They just can't fall off completely.

I'm looking at the trends though.  In the previous 10 game chunk Leafs only had 1 game where they gave up 4 or more goals.  In this 10 game chunk so far, there's 6 games with 4 or more goals.  This is not good.
 
My point in comparing is the fact that the hallmark of Wilson teams were shoddy defense and suspect goaltending.  They were winning games early last season because they were scoring a ton of goals while giving up a ton.  Winning 5-4 isn't sustainable long term once your offense dries up.  This last 10 game stretch so far resembles that Wilson team far too closely in my opinion.  I'd have to agree with the above poster that it's looking grim now for they playoffs.  Lose against the Pens tomorrow and the players will get that "here we go again" feeling.
 
Zee said:
My point in comparing is the fact that the hallmark of Wilson teams were shoddy defense and suspect goaltending.  They were winning games early last season because they were scoring a ton of goals while giving up a ton.  Winning 5-4 isn't sustainable long term once your offense dries up.  This last 10 game stretch so far resembles that Wilson team far too closely in my opinion.  I'd have to agree with the above poster that it's looking grim now for they playoffs.  Lose against the Pens tomorrow and the players will get that "here we go again" feeling.

The hallmark of Carlyle so far has been get outchanced and rely on the goaltending.
 
Potvin29 said:
Zee said:
My point in comparing is the fact that the hallmark of Wilson teams were shoddy defense and suspect goaltending.  They were winning games early last season because they were scoring a ton of goals while giving up a ton.  Winning 5-4 isn't sustainable long term once your offense dries up.  This last 10 game stretch so far resembles that Wilson team far too closely in my opinion.  I'd have to agree with the above poster that it's looking grim now for they playoffs.  Lose against the Pens tomorrow and the players will get that "here we go again" feeling.

The hallmark of Carlyle so far has been get outchanced and rely on the goaltending.

I don't recall many games that you can say the goalie stole the game for us this season.  Looking at our un-scientific "man of the match" standings it shows that Reimer/Scrivens have only won it 4 times combined out of 15 wins.
 
Zee said:
Potvin29 said:
Zee said:
My point in comparing is the fact that the hallmark of Wilson teams were shoddy defense and suspect goaltending.  They were winning games early last season because they were scoring a ton of goals while giving up a ton.  Winning 5-4 isn't sustainable long term once your offense dries up.  This last 10 game stretch so far resembles that Wilson team far too closely in my opinion.  I'd have to agree with the above poster that it's looking grim now for they playoffs.  Lose against the Pens tomorrow and the players will get that "here we go again" feeling.

The hallmark of Carlyle so far has been get outchanced and rely on the goaltending.

I don't recall many games that you can say the goalie stole the game for us this season.  Looking at our un-scientific "man of the match" standings it shows that Reimer/Scrivens have only won it 4 times combined out of 15 wins.

We're consistently outshot, and outchanced.  Good teams outshoot the opposition (for the most part).  We're 5th worst in SA and 6th worst in S.  Look at the teams around us that give up a similar number of SA - Edmonton, Ottawa, Buffalo, Colorado, Washington, Carolina, Tampa Bay, Florida.  Carolina and Ottawa are the only 2 out of that group that either shoot more than they allow per game, or in Ottawa's case, their S/SA are the same.  They are also the only teams with winning records of that group.

The combined records of those other teams is 58-78-20.  Toronto's been able to sustain it this long because for most of the season they've been getting .930-ish goaltending.

I'm not saying it's exact by any means, but I think overall and over the years, the better teams aren't consistently outshot.
 
Potvin29 said:
Zee said:
Potvin29 said:
Zee said:
My point in comparing is the fact that the hallmark of Wilson teams were shoddy defense and suspect goaltending.  They were winning games early last season because they were scoring a ton of goals while giving up a ton.  Winning 5-4 isn't sustainable long term once your offense dries up.  This last 10 game stretch so far resembles that Wilson team far too closely in my opinion.  I'd have to agree with the above poster that it's looking grim now for they playoffs.  Lose against the Pens tomorrow and the players will get that "here we go again" feeling.

The hallmark of Carlyle so far has been get outchanced and rely on the goaltending.

I don't recall many games that you can say the goalie stole the game for us this season.  Looking at our un-scientific "man of the match" standings it shows that Reimer/Scrivens have only won it 4 times combined out of 15 wins.

We're consistently outshot, and outchanced.  Good teams outshoot the opposition (for the most part).  We're 5th worst in SA and 6th worst in S.  Look at the teams around us that give up a similar number of SA - Edmonton, Ottawa, Buffalo, Colorado, Washington, Carolina, Tampa Bay, Florida.  Carolina and Ottawa are the only 2 out of that group that either shoot more than they allow per game, or in Ottawa's case, their S/SA are the same.  They are also the only teams with winning records of that group.

The combined records of those other teams is 58-78-20.  Toronto's been able to sustain it this long because for most of the season they've been getting .930-ish goaltending.

I'm not saying it's exact by any means, but I think overall and over the years, the better teams aren't consistently outshot.

Fair enough, but my original point is that Carlyle's team isn't any better than Wilson's and has looked more like Wilson's in the last 7-10 games.  I can't argue quality of scoring chances vs. total shots against, but lately it seems that the "quality" chances are going up as opposed to earlier in the season.  I'm specifically talking about the 2 on 1s and breakaways that usually account for goals being scored.  We're basically saying the same thing, that Carlyle hasn't been an improvement over the Wilson team, but it seems like your point is it's looked better for Carlyle because the goalies have been better than they were for Wilson.
 
Potvin29 said:
Zee said:
My point in comparing is the fact that the hallmark of Wilson teams were shoddy defense and suspect goaltending.  They were winning games early last season because they were scoring a ton of goals while giving up a ton.  Winning 5-4 isn't sustainable long term once your offense dries up.  This last 10 game stretch so far resembles that Wilson team far too closely in my opinion.  I'd have to agree with the above poster that it's looking grim now for they playoffs.  Lose against the Pens tomorrow and the players will get that "here we go again" feeling.

The hallmark of Carlyle so far has been get outchanced and rely on the goaltending.

Which really isn't all that different from the Wilson teams.  Just Reimer/Scrivens have been better (until the last few games where they haven't played nearly as well).

Bottom line for me, Carlyle doesn't seem to reward solid play with additional opportunities.  His lines stay the same regardless of the score or performance of the team.  Pretty much the only guys who move around during the game are the occassional move of Jay/Leo from the 4th line.
 
drummond said:
Start of last season: 27gp; 32pts.

Start of this season: 27gp; 31pts

Last season after 27 games: 87 goals for, 87 goals against.

This season after 27 games: 81 goals for, 75 goals against.

They're allowing almost half a goal less per game. Let's not just look at their respective records and determine their future from there.
 
bustaheims said:
drummond said:
Start of last season: 27gp; 32pts.

Start of this season: 27gp; 31pts

Last season after 27 games: 87 goals for, 87 goals against.

This season after 27 games: 81 goals for, 75 goals against.

They're allowing almost half a goal less per game. Let's not just look at their respective records and determine their future from there.

I think panic is starting to creep in to their game.  Hopefully they are able to get rid of it.
 
bustaheims said:
drummond said:
Start of last season: 27gp; 32pts.

Start of this season: 27gp; 31pts

Last season after 27 games: 87 goals for, 87 goals against.

This season after 27 games: 81 goals for, 75 goals against.

They're allowing almost half a goal less per game. Let's not just look at their respective records and determine their future from there.

Are you sure about those goal totals...? ;)
 
Deebo said:
bustaheims said:
drummond said:
Start of last season: 27gp; 32pts.

Start of this season: 27gp; 31pts

Last season after 27 games: 87 goals for, 87 goals against.

This season after 27 games: 81 goals for, 75 goals against.

They're allowing almost half a goal less per game. Let's not just look at their respective records and determine their future from there.

Are you sure about those goal totals...? ;)

I'm only as good as my abacus.
 
Zee said:
Potvin29 said:
Zee said:
My point in comparing is the fact that the hallmark of Wilson teams were shoddy defense and suspect goaltending.  They were winning games early last season because they were scoring a ton of goals while giving up a ton.  Winning 5-4 isn't sustainable long term once your offense dries up.  This last 10 game stretch so far resembles that Wilson team far too closely in my opinion.  I'd have to agree with the above poster that it's looking grim now for they playoffs.  Lose against the Pens tomorrow and the players will get that "here we go again" feeling.

The hallmark of Carlyle so far has been get outchanced and rely on the goaltending.

I don't recall many games that you can say the goalie stole the game for us this season.  Looking at our un-scientific "man of the match" standings it shows that Reimer/Scrivens have only won it 4 times combined out of 15 wins.

They might not have stolen us games but, losing streak aside, we got to where we are in the standings because we were getting a .920 save percentage out of our goalies. That's top-10 goaltending. There's no way Reimer and Scrivens were going to keep that up. So if we're only going to get average goaltending from this point out Carlyle needs to tighten up the defence and the team needs to stop getting outchanced on a consistent basis.
 
bustaheims said:
drummond said:
Start of last season: 27gp; 32pts.

Start of this season: 27gp; 31pts

Last season after 27 games: 87 goals for, 87 goals against.

This season after 27 games: 81 goals for, 75 goals against.

They're allowing almost half a goal less per game. Let's not just look at their respective records and determine their future from there.

While being outshot by wide margin every second game - how long is that sustainable?
 
drummond said:
bustaheims said:
drummond said:
Start of last season: 27gp; 32pts.

Start of this season: 27gp; 31pts

Last season after 27 games: 87 goals for, 87 goals against.

This season after 27 games: 81 goals for, 75 goals against.

They're allowing almost half a goal less per game. Let's not just look at their respective records and determine their future from there.

While being outshot by wide margin every second game - how long is that sustainable?

When that team shows up, I can't even watch. The games are so boring. It's like watching Team Switzerland play. Just how much of a beating can you sustain before the other team makes a mistake you can potentially capitalize on? Sometimes I feel like they are trying to set the record for most games won with least amount of TOA. The only thing keeping the Leafs interesting is that you could also get the team that hems Pittsburgh in their end for 45 minutes. It's like a mystery box every time you tune in!
 
CarltonTheBear said:
Zee said:
Potvin29 said:
Zee said:
My point in comparing is the fact that the hallmark of Wilson teams were shoddy defense and suspect goaltending.  They were winning games early last season because they were scoring a ton of goals while giving up a ton.  Winning 5-4 isn't sustainable long term once your offense dries up.  This last 10 game stretch so far resembles that Wilson team far too closely in my opinion.  I'd have to agree with the above poster that it's looking grim now for they playoffs.  Lose against the Pens tomorrow and the players will get that "here we go again" feeling.

The hallmark of Carlyle so far has been get outchanced and rely on the goaltending.

I don't recall many games that you can say the goalie stole the game for us this season.  Looking at our un-scientific "man of the match" standings it shows that Reimer/Scrivens have only won it 4 times combined out of 15 wins.

They might not have stolen us games but, losing streak aside, we got to where we are in the standings because we were getting a .920 save percentage out of our goalies. That's top-10 goaltending. There's no way Reimer and Scrivens were going to keep that up. So if we're only going to get average goaltending from this point out Carlyle needs to tighten up the defence and the team needs to stop getting outchanced on a consistent basis.

To further this point, as of recently, the leafs were 3rd last in the league in "fenwick close" (basically, shot differential, including both shots on goal and missed shots when tied or up or down one goal) and *last* in "fenwick tied" (basically, shot differential when tied):

http://behindthenet.ca/fenwick_2012.php?sort=1&section=close

Now, you might ask, why should anyone care about this esoteric stat?  Well, apparently, if you are interested in trying to predict how a team will play in the future, the best way people know how to of do so is to use Fenwick.  In fact, Fenwick is a better predictor of future success than the number of points accrued in the standings so far!  Yes that is pretty surprising.  For example, a recent blog post:

http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2013/03/12/why-advanced-statistics-approaches-hockey-completely-wrong-but-still-gets-things-right/

A team?s Fenwick percentage when the score is close or tied, for instance, is generally far more predictive of a team?s future results than their current results. The Los Angeles Kings seemed to surprise everyone but the advanced statistics crowd with their dominance in the playoffs: they had the fourth highest Fenwick Close in the league. Then there was the well-predicted slide by the Minnesota Wild from top of the Western Conference to out of the playoffs

So when trying to predict how the leafs will play in the future, you should probably predict that they will play like Columbus, Edmonton or Tampa. It looks like they will play worse than teams like Ottawa, the Islanders and Philly.  And, of course, way worse than Montreal, Pittsburgh and LA.

Now, since the season is short and the leafs have accrued quite a number of points, their chances of maintaining their position probably isn't that bad relative to what it would be if the season was longer.  Also, getting players like Frattin and Lupul back could help (and Gunnar was out for a lot of that period and Liles/Gardiner could be subbed in for a guy like Holzer, who the stats seem to show is a bit of a train wreck).  Obviously, Fenwick isnt going to measure how good a team might be with different players .... Finally, 25 games of Fenwick stats probably isn't that much -- there's probably a lot of error in how that stat measures Toronto's "true skill" -- Toronto may be better than the stat makes us look currently (or we may be worse).

Nevertheless, prior to the Ottawa game a few games back, when Toronto was at a high, I bet my Mum they would miss the playoffs.  It's the sort of bet I win either way: if they make the playoffs, well, THEY MADE THE PLAYOFFS! If not, I drown my sorrows in my Mum's bottle of wine.  We will see.  I didn't actually do any math to calculate what winning percentage one might expect going forward, given these stats, and whether that winning percentage would lead the leafs to making or missing the playoffs.  I just knew the underlying stats were *horrendous*.  We will see. Despite the bet, I still hope they make it, of course.

Last, please don't interpret this post as a suggestion that Fenwick and/or Corsi are the be-all, end-all.  They aren't.  They just happen to be the best individual stats that I've heard of for predicting future success.  But I certainly don't spend as much time thinking about these things as many others in the blogosphere.  I have a job. :-)

Definition of Fenwick:

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2012/7/25/3184137/intro-to-advanced-hockey-statistics-fenwick

 

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