Leafs acquire Michael Grabner

[Kin]

I'm thinking now there is some shorthanded goal hype with him, especially with the Toronto media.

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=562711

Well, he's scored 5 shorthanded goals in his last 201 games. Someone like Bozak, over the same stretch, has scored 4.

And the 2 goals in that clip above, I mean, they really don't speak to his speed. Both are pretty horrible plays by the Leafs to cough up the puck in their own zone.

 

[Bill_Berg]

I'm thinking now there is some shorthanded goal hype with him, especially with the Toronto media.

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=562711

Well, he's scored 5 shorthanded goals in his last 201 games. Someone like Bozak, over the same stretch, has scored 4.

And the 2 goals in that clip above, I mean, they really don't speak to his speed. Both are pretty horrible plays by the Leafs to cough up the puck in their own zone.

Right, so it generated hype, but likely unwarranted hype.

 

[Bill_Berg]

Ya, healthy scratch... I really don't know much about him, I suppose your argument is that by me saying 'specialist' that implies he excels at the position, and maybe it does imply that. So I'll change it to, I was under the impression he was brought in to kill penalties, possibly poorly.

Well, I suppose it's more along the lines of, even if he is a pretty good penalty killer, does that combined with his seeming inability to score much combine to make him a particularly good player. I mean, Jay McClement is a PK specialist who I think is pretty good in the role but if the Leafs acquired him I wouldn't call him a very good player either.

Maybe a limited player, but if he has a role and fills it well, and doesn't become a burden in other places, then I would be willing to call him a good player. Much like I would call a left-handed pitcher that can get out left-handed batters with ease but can't get righties out a good player.

I might not call him a very good player, but I took from you saying that he isn't a very good player that you think he's not even a good player, much like I say I'm not very good at tennis, I actually down right suck at tennis.

 

[Kin]

Right, so it generated hype, but likely unwarranted hype.

Well, I think one of the thing that clip maybe shows is that in general SH goals are largely the result of luck and that, in general, there really isn't a way to reliably be able to score beyond A) spending time on the PK and B) being a relatively good goal scorer regardless. I don't know if there's a special skillset that makes someone a good SH goal scorer beyond just being good at scoring goals. I mean, Grabner scored 6 in his rookie season which was also by far just his best goal scoring season. Rick Nash, who's about as good a goal scorer as there is, seems to be able to reliably score a handful a year while on the PK but Patrice Bergeron has never scored more than a couple.

I don't know. Maybe someone's looked at the issue with more depth but right now it's hard to see an ability to score SH goals as being a distinct attribute.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Which is this argument in a nutshell. The Leafs, somehow, are going to improve because they add other teams' detritus. Healthy scratches and vets nobody else wants for the minimum.

At this point "magic" would genuinely be a more defensible position.

QFT.

 

[Bill_Berg]

Right, so it generated hype, but likely unwarranted hype.

Well, I think one of the thing that clip maybe shows is that in general SH goals are largely the result of luck and that, in general, there really isn't a way to reliably be able to score beyond A) spending time on the PK and B) being a relatively good goal scorer regardless. I don't know if there's a special skillset that makes someone a good SH goal scorer beyond just being good at scoring goals. I mean, Grabner scored 6 in his rookie season which was also by far just his best goal scoring season. Rick Nash, who's about as good a goal scorer as there is, seems to be able to reliably score a handful a year while on the PK but Patrice Bergeron has never scored more than a couple.

I don't know. Maybe someone's looked at the issue with more depth but right now it's hard to see an ability to score SH goals as being a distinct attribute.

It's flashy, people love that stuff. When people love something, they put it up on a pedestal, give it a title and try to convince everyone else there's something there that may not actually be there.

This quote was what had me before I saw that he's frequently a healthy scratch.

?He brings exceptional speed,? Leafs GM Lou Lamoriello said of Grabner. ?There?s no question he?s one of the top penalty-killers in the league. He pushes other people, and he pushes the defence back. We?ve seen enough of him to know that. And we?re looking forward to getting him.?

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/2015/09/17/maple-leafs-acquire-michael-grabner-from-islanders-in-six-player-trade.html

 

[Kin]

At this point Lamoriello liking him might just mean that he wears very shiny shoes.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

This quote was what had me before I saw that he's frequently a healthy scratch.

?He brings exceptional speed,? Leafs GM Lou Lamoriello said of Grabner. ?There?s no question he?s one of the top penalty-killers in the league. He pushes other people, and he pushes the defence back. We?ve seen enough of him to know that. And we?re looking forward to getting him.?

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/2015/09/17/maple-leafs-acquire-michael-grabner-from-islanders-in-six-player-trade.html

It's not exactly rare for a GM to talk-up a recent trade acquisition. Grabner was the 5th most used penalty-killer among forwards for New York. "One of the top penalty-killers" is definitely pushing it.

 

[Redleaf]

At some point does it become relevant that Grabner has only scored 20 goals and 39 points in his last 98 games?

He's not a very good player.

He was also a healthy scratch in 14 of NYI's last 21 games (including playoffs).

This however does make me think he may not be a very good player.

I was unaware of this as well. Even more perturbed with the deal  now.

It's less perturbing if you reframe it as a contract-freeing transaction, rather than an NHL team improvement move. It's almost like helping someone break a large dollar bill with your pocket change because you didn't really want so many coins in the pockets of pants that were a bit snug.

I suppose thats the only comforting viewpoint to take.

 

[bustaheims]

It's not exactly rare for a GM to talk-up a recent trade acquisition. Grabner was the 5th most used penalty-killer among forwards for New York. "One of the top penalty-killers" is definitely pushing it.

Yeah. It's not like Lou is going to come out and say "Well, the Islanders didn't want to pay him, and so we thought we could fix our reserve list problem by taking on this entirely mediocre player."

 

[Redleaf]

Organization fillers? You can't know that any of these 5 players traded for Grabner will not amount to anything. Again your projecting your option as fact.

That's not just my opinion. That's the opinion of the Leafs' talent evaluators who preferred the contract spaces or the Islanders who felt they needed all 5 to justify moving a pretty mediocre contributor in Grabner. For many, it was the scouts leading up to their draft, who ranked them fairly low. In the case of Beck, there's also Nashville who didn't think he was worth a salary that's not significantly higher than the league minimum. In some cases, they've put up disappointing numbers since being drafted; for others, their ceiling was never seen as more than how I described them. These are the things I base my opinion on.

Ill have to remember your respect for the Leaf talent evaluators. I don't think Ive ever seen you use that one to back an argument.

 

[bustaheims]

Ill have to remember your respect for the Leaf talent evaluators. I don't think Ive ever seen you use that one to back an argument.

Their former talent evaluators? No, never. Their current talent evaluators? Much more hopeful.

 

[Redleaf]

Ill have to remember your respect for the Leaf talent evaluators. I don't think Ive ever seen you use that one to back an argument.

Their former talent evaluators? No, never. Their current talent evaluators? Much more hopeful.

So Grabner was a good pick up?

 

[bustaheims]

So Grabner was a good pick up?

No, Grabner was a salary dump that allowed the Leafs to dump contracts. They didn't target Grabner to improve the team. They saw an opportunity to clear out some of the clutter. They identified a number of guys that had fallen too far down the depth chart to keep around and found a way to move them.

 

[Kin]

So Grabner was a good pick up?

In the sense that he meets the Leafs requirement of adding players who won't help them win much this season but could conceivably be flipped at the deadline for draft picks. He absolutely fits into the Leafs plans in that regard.

 

[bustaheims]

In the sense that he meets the Leafs requirement of adding players who won't help them win much this season but could conceivably be flipped at the deadline for draft picks. He absolutely fits into the Leafs plans in that regard.

Yeah. This is a "bigger picture" type move. The Leafs weren't looking for a player who would help them now - that would have cost them assets they'd prefer to retain. They were looking for someone another team didn't want so they could create some flexibility, with the added bonus of potentially turning that player into future assets at the trade deadline. Grabner really could have been anyone on an expiring contract that their team didn't want to pay.

 

[Kin]

Yeah. This is a "bigger picture" type move. The Leafs weren't looking for a player who would help them now - that would have cost them assets they'd prefer to retain. They were looking for someone another team didn't want so they could create some flexibility, with the added bonus of potentially turning that player into future assets at the trade deadline. Grabner really could have been anyone on an expiring contract that their team didn't want to pay.

Well, I will say this for him, whenever someone has put together a potential Leafs lineup over the last little while I've always felt there was sort of one spot empty. Just as an example:

JVR-Kadri-Parenteau
X-Bozak-Lupul

At various times that X had been filled by Matthias, by Panik and by some other guys who I really think the linemates and potential PP time would be wasted on. If we look at that spot as a place where the linemates, PP time and general ice time could be used to artificially inflate their value for the deadline while still not adding much in the way of genuine value that would result in wins, I think there was a real spot there.

A semi-decent offensive player could conceivably score 15+ goals in that spot almost by just showing up and I think the Leafs did sort of lack an option there. Personally, that's why I thought the Boyes/Glencross PTO's made sense. They were guys who, with a little bit of luck and in the right situation, could be flogged as potential 20 goal guys at the deadline. Grabner, I guess, meets that bill too.

 

[Bill_Berg]

It's not exactly rare for a GM to talk-up a recent trade acquisition. Grabner was the 5th most used penalty-killer among forwards for New York. "One of the top penalty-killers" is definitely pushing it.

Yeah. It's not like Lou is going to come out and say "Well, the Islanders didn't want to pay him, and so we thought we could fix our reserve list problem by taking on this entirely mediocre player."

That's the other end of the spectrum from what he did say though. I'm sure there is some middle ground like, 'we believe Grabner is a valuable player that will add some speed to our roster and help out on the penalty kill'.

 

[bustaheims]

That's the other end of the spectrum from what he did say though. I'm sure there is some middle ground like, 'we believe Grabner is a valuable player that will add some speed to our roster and help out on the penalty kill'.

So, he went a little over the top with the hyperbole. He's excited. It was his first real move as GM in Toronto.

 

[herman]

That's the other end of the spectrum from what he did say though. I'm sure there is some middle ground like, 'we believe Grabner is a valuable player that will add some speed to our roster and help out on the penalty kill'.

So, he went a little over the top with the hyperbole. He's excited. It was his first real move as GM in Toronto.

Was it even his move?