Leafs Bottom 6/Depth Chart

[Kin]

Nylander doesn't just have to be "better than Clarkson" and just because Clarkson may be given the opportunity it doesn't mean he's the "best they can do". Nylander would be competing with basically every winger on the Leafs roster not named Van Reimsdyk, Kessel or Lupul for the spot.

Sure. Would you agree though, that for a skilled guy like Nylander, he should either crack the top 6 or go play in the AHL?

It all depends on how ready he is and how the team plans to use their lines. If, for instance, the team wanted to use their 3rd line in offensive situations primarily and have the 4th line in the defensive roles then if Nylander was getting 14-15 minutes a night on the third line with some second unit power play time that would be a good option too. Even getting 12 minutes a night on a 4th line can be a good place for a player to develop.

I don't think there's a one size fits all to player development. We'll probably never have all of the information needed to really have a strong opinion on where Nylander would be best served but there's absolutely no point to trying and guess before camp.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Nylander doesn't just have to be "better than Clarkson" and just because Clarkson may be given the opportunity it doesn't mean he's the "best they can do". Nylander would be competing with basically every winger on the Leafs roster not named Van Reimsdyk, Kessel or Lupul for the spot.

Sure. Would you agree though, that for a skilled guy like Nylander, he should either crack the top 6 or go play in the AHL?

I don't think it always has to be top 6 or bust.  If the bottom 6 were purely defensive players maybe, but if Nylander was to get, say, sheltered 3rd line minutes with decent linemates it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.  All depends on a lot of lineup decisions though.

 

[Frank E]

Nylander doesn't just have to be "better than Clarkson" and just because Clarkson may be given the opportunity it doesn't mean he's the "best they can do". Nylander would be competing with basically every winger on the Leafs roster not named Van Reimsdyk, Kessel or Lupul for the spot.

Sure. Would you agree though, that for a skilled guy like Nylander, he should either crack the top 6 or go play in the AHL?

I don't think it always has to be top 6 or bust.  If the bottom 6 were purely defensive players maybe, but if Nylander was to get, say, sheltered 3rd line minutes with decent linemates it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.  All depends on a lot of lineup decisions though.

Wasn't Kadri given those kinds of minutes?  He came along fine.

 

[hap_leaf]

Nylander doesn't just have to be "better than Clarkson" and just because Clarkson may be given the opportunity it doesn't mean he's the "best they can do". Nylander would be competing with basically every winger on the Leafs roster not named Van Reimsdyk, Kessel or Lupul for the spot.

Sure. Would you agree though, that for a skilled guy like Nylander, he should either crack the top 6 or go play in the AHL?

I don't think it always has to be top 6 or bust.  If the bottom 6 were purely defensive players maybe, but if Nylander was to get, say, sheltered 3rd line minutes with decent linemates it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.  All depends on a lot of lineup decisions though.

Wasn't Kadri given those kinds of minutes?  He came along fine.

I never did agree with the way they treated Kadri and his development.  He did everything asked of him when called up but would continually be sent down to the point that he seemed to lose confidence.  I hope they learn something from that and how to show some respect to Nylander in a way that rewards him for his progress. 

 

[Deebo]

I never did agree with the way they treated Kadri and his development.  He did everything asked of him when called up but would continually be sent down to the point that he seemed to lose confidence.

How do you know what they asked of him?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Nylander doesn't just have to be "better than Clarkson" and just because Clarkson may be given the opportunity it doesn't mean he's the "best they can do". Nylander would be competing with basically every winger on the Leafs roster not named Van Reimsdyk, Kessel or Lupul for the spot.

Sure. Would you agree though, that for a skilled guy like Nylander, he should either crack the top 6 or go play in the AHL?

I don't think it always has to be top 6 or bust.  If the bottom 6 were purely defensive players maybe, but if Nylander was to get, say, sheltered 3rd line minutes with decent linemates it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.  All depends on a lot of lineup decisions though.

Wasn't Kadri given those kinds of minutes?  He came along fine.

I never did agree with the way they treated Kadri and his development.  He did everything asked of him when called up but would continually be sent down to the point that he seemed to lose confidence.  I hope they learn something from that and how to show some respect to Nylander in a way that rewards him for his progress.

How did he seem to lose confidence?  He had 66 points in his last 75 AHL games and 44 points in his first 48 games as an NHL regular.  You could just as easily argue that the extra time in the minors helped prepare him to step into the 2nd line in 2013.

 

[Frank E]

I don't think that Carlyle and co. get enough kudos for developing some of these now regular young Leafs.

I think they developed Kadri quite well, Gardiner certainly took some patience, Rielly seemed to make a good adjustment, not to mention the emergence of JVR and Franson.

You could make an argument that they haven't hit a homerun with Ashton or Holland, but let's see how those guys make out this year.

 

[ZBBM]

What's interesting, I think, about the way the offseason changes to the forwards are shaping up is what effect it will have, if any, on the defensive strategy.  I can only hope that Shanahan has told RC to drop the passive, absorb-punches philosophy.  The guys they've added to the likely bottom 6 (which, except Holland, would be a complete overhaul) all profile as more aggressive defensive players as far as I can see.

It appears that the bottom 6 should be better on D and the PK than last season's.  The problem, defensively, is still in the top 6 ... who get most of the icetime.  Maybe somebody like Winnik replaces Clarkson on the second line?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I don't think that Carlyle and co. get enough kudos for developing some of these now regular young Leafs.

I think they developed Kadri quite well

I'm not sure why he would get credit for developing Kadri when almost all of that development took place in the AHL and before Carlyle was hired.  He got a full-time gig at 23, so the majority of his developing into an NHL player would have taken place already.  That's not old by any stretch, but it's not particularly young to be entering the league either.

EDIT: I suppose he would get credit for giving him a spot and rolling with him (I'm unconvinced any other coach wouldn't have done the same but it's impossible to say so he'll get benefit of the doubt).

 

[bustaheims]

I don't think that Carlyle and co. get enough kudos for developing some of these now regular young Leafs.

I think they developed Kadri quite well, Gardiner certainly took some patience, Rielly seemed to make a good adjustment, not to mention the emergence of JVR and Franson.

You could make an argument that they haven't hit a homerun with Ashton or Holland, but let's see how those guys make out this year.

Potvin already touched on Kadri. I'd also say most of Gardiner's development came outside of Carlyle. He had a 3/4 of an NHL season before Carlyle got here and spent most of the next in the AHL. Carlyle may have helped with some of the rough edges that remained, but, most of his development came under other coaches. Same with JvR - his development occurred while he was in Philly. It's more than he was given the right opportunity with the Leafs. As for Franson . . . he showed a lot of the same things he's shown here while he was in Nashville. Other than throwing more hits (which often leaves him out of position), there hasn't really been much change in his game since the trade. I don't think there's really been much of an emergence there at all.

Carlyle gets some credit for Rielly, but, at the same time, I think Rielly really deserves most of the credit himself. He's a smart and very talented hockey player, and I think he would have gotten to where he is on his own.

 

[Corn Flake]

It appears that the bottom 6 should be better on D and the PK than last season's.  The problem, defensively, is still in the top 6 ... who get most of the icetime.  Maybe somebody like Winnik replaces Clarkson on the second line?

But one of the biggest problems with the top six was simply about the amount of ice time they played vs. tough opponents.  Not being the absolute strongest group defensively was made worse.  Now that they have built up a rather solid looking stack of bottom six guys who are good enough to run up against other team's top lines, the heat the top six take for defensive limitations should be greatly reduced (along with their ice time).

Points well illustrated here: http://mapleleafshotstove.com/2014/07/29/brendan-shanahan-addresses-depth-not-core-of-maple-leafs/

ie: a 4th line of Winnik, Ashton and Bodie could handle most 2nd and 3rd lines on other teams.  Last year our 4th line couldn't handle other 4th lines.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

It appears that the bottom 6 should be better on D and the PK than last season's.  The problem, defensively, is still in the top 6 ... who get most of the icetime.  Maybe somebody like Winnik replaces Clarkson on the second line?

But one of the biggest problems with the top six was simply about the amount of ice time they played vs. tough opponents.  Not being the absolute strongest group defensively was made worse.  Now that they have built up a rather solid looking stack of bottom six guys who are good enough to run up against other team's top lines, the heat the top six take for defensive limitations should be greatly reduced (along with their ice time).

Points well illustrated here: http://mapleleafshotstove.com/2014/07/29/brendan-shanahan-addresses-depth-not-core-of-maple-leafs/

ie: a 4th line of Winnik, Ashton and Bodie could handle most 2nd and 3rd lines on other teams.  Last year our 4th line couldn't handle other 4th lines.

Yep, and rather than try to say what Petrielli's said, I'll use his better words:

The Leafs third line had the worst points per game in the league compared to other third lines.
The bottom six couldn?t help kill penalties.
The bottom six couldn?t help protect a lead, in which the Leafs led the league in blown third period leads.

The bad penalty kill and inability to protect a lead don?t fall solely on the bottom six, but in the big picture they couldn?t help offensively, defensively, or on special teams. There is no nice way of saying that. That is how the Leafs ended up having three forwards in the top 12 of average time on ice (for forwards) in the league. The only other team in the league to have three forwards average 20+ minutes of ice time per game was Vancouver, and only 29 forwards in the entire league averaged 20+ minutes. To say nothing of JVR and Kessel playing in the Olympics too. The second line had two 20+ goal scorers, and nearly a third (Raymond had 19). Both Lupul and Raymond are listed as left wingers on NHL.com, and they both finished in the top 30 at that position in ice time. They each would have finished in the top 30 as right wingers too. This is getting magnified to really make it clear how bad the Leafs bottom six was, how much they relied on their top players because of it, and to highlight how the Leafs ran their top forwards right into the ground.

All that right there, and helping fix it, should hopefully have a ripple effect through the entire lineup in a positive way.

 

[hap_leaf]

I never did agree with the way they treated Kadri and his development.  He did everything asked of him when called up but would continually be sent down to the point that he seemed to lose confidence.

How do you know what they asked of him?

I mean he did everything asked of him with a good attitude.  Whatever that may have been.  Having been sent up and down numerous times and still no complaining (let's assume he would prefer to be in the NHL instead of going up and down 7 times).  Given responsibilities on the 2nd line and then having it taken away.  Being stripped of his minutes; finally only seeing some PP time.  Then cast off again.  And every return he produced (albeit with some mistakes typical of his age).
If he was not ready for prime time, he should have just stayed in the AHL until ready as someone else alluded to.  That, in my opinion, is how to potentially ruin your young players - by throwing them into the fire too quickly.  Hopefully things go better with Nylander and he has all the time he needs.

 

[ZBBM]

It appears that the bottom 6 should be better on D and the PK than last season's.  The problem, defensively, is still in the top 6 ... who get most of the icetime.  Maybe somebody like Winnik replaces Clarkson on the second line?

But one of the biggest problems with the top six was simply about the amount of ice time they played vs. tough opponents.  Not being the absolute strongest group defensively was made worse.  Now that they have built up a rather solid looking stack of bottom six guys who are good enough to run up against other team's top lines, the heat the top six take for defensive limitations should be greatly reduced (along with their ice time).

Points well illustrated here: http://mapleleafshotstove.com/2014/07/29/brendan-shanahan-addresses-depth-not-core-of-maple-leafs/

ie: a 4th line of Winnik, Ashton and Bodie could handle most 2nd and 3rd lines on other teams.  Last year our 4th line couldn't handle other 4th lines.

That only works if you have a coach willing to line-match.

 

[lamajama]

Don't you listen to the color guys? Matching
is a real strength of Carlyle.  :

His version of matching was to send Phaneuf
out.

 

[moon111]

As a supervisor, short-term goals were met better by placing weaker individuals in easier situations.  Long-term, it was better to set the weaker up to fail.  The better workers didn't feel exploited, the weaker ones were either eliminated or had to step up.  Maybe Carlyle has been promoting the weaknesses so management knows what to fix?

 

[Bender]

As a supervisor, short-term goals were met better by placing weaker individuals in easier situations.  Long-term, it was better to set the weaker up to fail.  The better workers didn't feel exploited, the weaker ones were either eliminated or had to step up.  Maybe Carlyle has been promoting the weaknesses so management knows what to fix?

Sure, but does that really have a parallel in hockey? I mean, it would be great to can our less talented players, or have them step up against Ovechkin but you have to have them on your roster for cap reasons, and I don't think you can fault them for being worse than elite. They are all paid accordingly.

Why would the better players feel exploited when they make 4-8x what a weaker player would make?

 

[Fanatic]

From Mirtle:

http://www.capgeek.com/armchair-gm/roster/38899

 

[moon111]

As a supervisor, short-term goals were met better by placing weaker individuals in easier situations.  Long-term, it was better to set the weaker up to fail.  The better workers didn't feel exploited, the weaker ones were either eliminated or had to step up.  Maybe Carlyle has been promoting the weaknesses so management knows what to fix?

Sure, but does that really have a parallel in hockey? I mean, it would be great to can our less talented players, or have them step up against Ovechkin but you have to have them on your roster for cap reasons, and I don't think you can fault them for being worse than elite. They are all paid accordingly.

Why would the better players feel exploited when they make 4-8x what a weaker player would make?

Well in some ways, maybe Carlyle decides Bozak and Kadri are his 1st and 2nd line centers and really buries Grabs on the third line with no talented wingers to make him look bad.  Not that Grabs is that bad, but he's not what Carlyle or the team needed.  They needed a Bolland-type instead.  But if Carlyle had Bozak, Kadri and Grabs all doing well... the team's roster is still imbalanced.  Carlyle's defensive strategy to throw out Phaneuf all the time.  It sends a clear signal that he can't use these other guys and it raises the red flag.  Management gets defensive defenseman.  Carlyle over-uses McClement on the P.K..  Management focuses on getting players who can kill penalties.  Carlyle has clearly shown the fail in the roster.  Maybe it was a calculated strategy, maybe it was just desperation.  In any case, it worked and I think the team is better for it.

 

[Highlander]

Does anyone know the status of Teemu Hartikainen, whom we aquired in the Fraser to Edmonton trade. Seems a big strapping Finn may want to join the other Finns that are now signed up. I saw him play with the Oilers in Phoenix a few years back and he made an impression with his play.