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Leafs @ Lightning - Apr. 8th, 7:30pm - SN, TSN 1050

Nik the Trik said:
Really? Like, you need Carlyle to add "...and that's why we're putting him in that role tonight so we can see how he responds" or "...but so far he hasn't really earned his way in on merit" so that you don't think that he's saying the equivalent of "Ashton should have been in the top 6 all year but I, the head coach of the team, haven't been able to figure out how"? Do you really think he's some sort of idiot man-child who can't quite work out the rubik's cube that is a line-up?

Look, I get that you don't like the guy and want someone else to be coach but you're doing a disservice to that point of view by parsing every sentence the guy says and interpreting it in the worst possible light.
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We're obviously having a bit of fun here, but I think there is some merit to questioning that statement. One of the teams biggest problems all season long was secondary scoring, and here's a guy pegged to be a top-6 forward who was scoring at a very high rate in the AHL this season when given top-6 minutes. But in the NHL he could barely crack the 6 minute mark and spent the majority of his time with Jay McClement and Colton Orr. We can look at his goal and point totals and say he wasn't successful but that's really unfair considering his surroundings. He had a fairly high shot rate and significantly improved his linemates corsi ratings when they were together. He was performing well with what he had. And if Carlyle really wanted to see what he could do in a top-6 role he could have easily been swapped in the line-up with Clarkson, who certainly wasn't earning his ice time on merit.
 
I really think you're reading too much into my response. I'm really not that invested into either Carlyle's decisions or Ashton's success as you seem to think.

So, no, I don't need Carlyle to add that because I'm quite aware that's what it means. No, I don't think that's he's saying the equivalent of what you wrote, and no, I don't think he's some sort of idiot man-child. I have the feeling you're confusing me with someone else because I don't analyze every sentence the guy says, nor do I interpret it in the worst possible light every time. In all honesty, I'm really not that interested.

That said, I am critical of how Ashton has been used and I do believe the coach has made mistakes and I do believe he hasn't given Ashton a fair chance at succeeding on a scoring line. However, I put it all in context and recognize that Ashton isn't going to solve anything and that his success or failure isn't that critical to the team except that it might provide cap flexibility if we can start replacing players from within.

I'll admit I'm not able to understand the many call-ups of Ashton and his use and whether or not this suggests any disconnect between management and coaching.

So saying I have no words was just a way of expressing frustration over the past treatment of the player and that I found the manner in which it was expressed to be ironic because it was the coaching staff that has so far placed him on that 4th line and it was my desire long ago to see him higher in the lineup.
 
CarltonTheBear said:
Nik the Trik said:
Really? Like, you need Carlyle to add "...and that's why we're putting him in that role tonight so we can see how he responds" or "...but so far he hasn't really earned his way in on merit" so that you don't think that he's saying the equivalent of "Ashton should have been in the top 6 all year but I, the head coach of the team, haven't been able to figure out how"? Do you really think he's some sort of idiot man-child who can't quite work out the rubik's cube that is a line-up?

Look, I get that you don't like the guy and want someone else to be coach but you're doing a disservice to that point of view by parsing every sentence the guy says and interpreting it in the worst possible light.
Click to expand...

We're obviously having a bit of fun here, but I think there is some merit to questioning that statement. One of the teams biggest problems all season long was secondary scoring, and here's a guy pegged to be a top-6 forward who was scoring at a very high rate in the AHL this season when given top-6 minutes. But in the NHL he could barely crack the 6 minute mark and spent the majority of his time with Jay McClement and Colton Orr. We can look at his goal and point totals and say he wasn't successful but that's really unfair considering his surroundings. He had a fairly high shot rate and significantly improved his linemates corsi ratings when they were together. He was performing well with what he had. And if Carlyle really wanted to see what he could do in a top-6 role he could have easily been swapped in the line-up with Clarkson, who certainly wasn't earning his ice time on merit.
Click to expand...

IMO Ashton is not going to be a top 6 ever. I see him as a 3rd line player who can put up 10 -15 goals a season. RC is just trying to save his job, by listening to what the fans want. Maybe with more energy in the line up they can win the next 3 and make things interesting in the standings. IMO we have to many points to better our draft position. So they might as well win the games.
 
Bullfrog said:
That said, I am critical of how Ashton has been used and I do believe the coach has made mistakes and I do believe he hasn't given Ashton a fair chance at succeeding on a scoring line. However, I put it all in context and recognize that Ashton isn't going to solve anything and that his success or failure isn't that critical to the team except that it might provide cap flexibility if we can start replacing players from within.

I'll admit I'm not able to understand the many call-ups of Ashton and his use and whether or not this suggests any disconnect between management and coaching.
Click to expand...

It's a fair comment for you to make, considering as Jonas Siegel points out, Ashton has played in 31 games with the Leafs this season, has played fewer than 6 minutes on 21 occasions and fewer than 4:00 on 9 occasions.
 
CarltonTheBear said:
We're obviously having a bit of fun here, but I think there is some merit to questioning that statement. One of the teams biggest problems all season long was secondary scoring, and here's a guy pegged to be a top-6 forward who was scoring at a very high rate in the AHL this season when given top-6 minutes. But in the NHL he could barely crack the 6 minute mark and spent the majority of his time with Jay McClement and Colton Orr. We can look at his goal and point totals and say he wasn't successful but that's really unfair considering his surroundings. He had a fairly high shot rate and significantly improved his linemates corsi ratings when they were together. He was performing well with what he had. And if Carlyle really wanted to see what he could do in a top-6 role he could have easily been swapped in the line-up with Clarkson, who certainly wasn't earning his ice time on merit.
Click to expand...

There's absolutely a valid reason to criticize the way Carlyle has used Ashton this season and, at a push, I suppose you could argue that he's deserved a shot in the top six before now(although Clarkson, who's currently at 8th on the team in TOI/G hasn't really been there either) but there's no legitimacy to questioning that statement because the meaning there is pretty clear. Carlyle wants to see Ashton in that role tonight. He didn't say "I'd have liked to have seen Ashton in that role" in the past tense.

I mean, honestly, there gets to be a point where relentlessly criticizing every decision regarding the line-up and ice-time starts looking less and less like reasoned criticism and more and more like a personal vendetta.
 
Potvin29 said:
It's a fair comment for you to make, considering as Jonas Siegel points out, Ashton has played in 31 games with the Leafs this season, has played fewer than 6 minutes on 21 occasions and fewer than 4:00 on 9 occasions.
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Which, of course, speaks to one of the issues many of us have with Carlyle, and that is his poor bench management this season. Too many times have players played 6 minutes or less this season, while, on the flip side, on many occasions other players have received far more ice time than they should have.
 
Nik the Trik said:
I mean, honestly, there gets to be a point where relentlessly criticizing every decision regarding the line-up and ice-time starts looking less and less like reasoned criticism and more and more like a personal vendetta.
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We're actually praising this line-up decision. We're criticizing the lateness of it.
 
Bullfrog said:
Nik the Trik said:
I mean, honestly, there gets to be a point where relentlessly criticizing every decision regarding the line-up and ice-time starts looking less and less like reasoned criticism and more and more like a personal vendetta.
Click to expand...

We're actually praising this line-up decision. We're criticizing the lateness of it.
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Yeah, nothing quite says praise like "Good for you for not being stupid anymore".
 
2badknees said:
Nik the Trik said:
Yeah, nothing quite says praise like "Good for you for not being stupid anymore".
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I'm guessing you're not married.
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Or maybe just not to the point where I confuse passive-aggressiveness for an actual compliment.
 
I'm really glad Ashton is going to get a chance to play on the second line tonight. Good job Randy, smart choice!
 
This game will be great the Leafs can get a few rounds of Golf in, and go flop around on the ice a bit.
Scout out some courses.
No pressure at all.
Tampa does not need this, and the Leafs do, but after watching them play WPG i thought they were looking ahead to Tampa/golfing.

2-8-0 in the last 10.
Fore.
 
I don't care.  >:(  No Joffrey. No Bernier. and probably no Bolland either.

I hope Steve Stamkos scores five goals against the Leafs tonight. Celebrate Yzerman's contract extension as GM.
 
LittleHockeyFan said:
I don't care.  >:(  No Joffrey. No Bernier. and probably no Bolland either.

I hope Steve Stamkos scores five goals against the Leafs tonight. Celebrate Yzerman's contract extension as GM.
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And that Kessel also scores five goals, right, right?
 
Of all the games this season, tonight's game is the one I'm finding the toughest to get up for. Of course, I'll still watch, but there is nothing left to cheer for accept a loss, and that's such a demoralizing practice.  ::)
 
Bullfrog said:
LittleHockeyFan said:
I don't care.  >:(  No Joffrey. No Bernier. and probably no Bolland either.

I hope Steve Stamkos scores five goals against the Leafs tonight. Celebrate Yzerman's contract extension as GM.
Click to expand...

And that Kessel also scores five goals, right, right?
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Sure. If it wrings out one more oz. of joy before the great ship Maple Leaf crashes and burns...
 
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