J
Jalili
Guest
mr grieves said:
I'd be interested to see what those stats are like from team to team. Off the top of my head there's a few teams that always seem to have a knack for pulling off some late game heroics.
Leafs @ Penguins - Dec. 16th, 7:00pm - SN, SN 590
- Thread starter CarltonTheBear
- Start date
I'd be interested to see what those stats are like from team to team. Off the top of my head there's a few teams that always seem to have a knack for pulling off some late game heroics.
bustaheims
Active member
Stickytape said:
Honestly, I don't think they did. They were outplayed significantly in the 1st. Played well, but not noticeably better than Pittsburgh in the 2nd, and both teams were bad in the 3rd. Based on the roster Pittsburgh had to play with, they probably should have done better, but, based on the way they played, I'd say they got what they deserved.
dappleganger
Active member
And in other news...
Greg Millen doesn't know what a shoulder is. Explains a lot about his playing career.
Greg Millen doesn't know what a shoulder is. Explains a lot about his playing career.
mr grieves
New member
Snoopzilla said:
Me too. But I can't find how.
In the meantime, I looked at the goal-game section, mostly to confirm what we already sensed. Their record in one goal games is 7-2-3, perhaps better than expected. But:
6 of those wins were in OT/SO. One was against Edmonton, which was the game Lupul scored with the empty net -- their only such goal this year (heroic comeback!).
Of the other 5 SO/OT wins:
10/6 vs. Ottawa - JvR scores early in 3rd to tie it (semi-heroic comeback!)
11/9 vs. NJ - Ryder scores a PP goal with 5 minutes left to tie (choke, recovery)
11/23 vs WSH - Ovie scores with 4 min let to tie (choke, recovery)
12/6 vs. DAL - Horcoff scores PPG with under 3 minutes left to tie (choke, recovery)
12/8 vs. Ottawa - 2 unanswered goals in third let Ottawa tie (choke, recovery)
The 3 OT/SO losses:
11/14 vs. MIN - Parise scores with 4 minutes left to tie (choke)
11/27 vs. Pittsburgh - 2 unanswered goals in 3rd let Pitt tie (choke)
11/30 vs. Buffalo - game tied at the end of the second, though 3rd (tight one... against Buffalo. Choke)
Things that occur to me:
1.) 4 of their 7 wins involved giving up the lead. That is, they screwed up, but made it right in the end. Still, it's not really evidence of a killer instinct (on the flip side, they've scored 3 EN goals -- and I don't think any since Bolland went down)
2.) In 6 of 8 OT/SO games (all but 10/6 vs. Ottawa, 10/12 vs. Edmonton), the Leafs weren't the ones to get back into the game. They were the ones to let the other team back in.
3.) There've been 7 times that the Leafs have tried to tie it up late, they've both failed to do so and given up a goal in failing to do so (7 games that were one-goal games until they became two-goal ones).
So, by my count (perhaps off) that's 21 close games, and in only two cases did the Leafs rally to a win or overtime point.
I've come around to Nik's view that a big problem here is that the best guys on this team -- the ones you put out late with the goalie out -- aren't executing. But I can still find ways to put a bit of the blame Carlyle and Nonis. The former keeps putting Phaneuf on the point, even when it's been Gardiner and Rielly who've made the most happen on the PP, leading to pucks bobbled at the blueline and poor zone entries (e.h. tonight). Nonis dumped 2 skill guys who were good on the boards, leaving Kessel to get pushed off the puck (LA?) -- meanwhile, I've seen at least a couple games where Grabo's board work helped get the puck back to the point and down to Ovechkin for the equalizer.
bustaheims
Active member
I think the bigger issue is how often the team needs their big players to come up with clutch plays late in the 3rd.
Britishbulldog
Active member
L K said:
I wonder if McLaren has been reeled in or something. He seems lathargic. I have followed him for years now (yes even before he was a Leaf) and he has always been willing to fight, try to get to the net, throw hits in his limited icetime. Last year in his limited 4th line role in 33 games he scored 3 goals, 2 of which were game winning.
This year he doesn't seem to even know which direction the net is let alone trying to score or make plays. I was hoping McLaren might be able to score 5 goals and 200 PIMs but I am worried that he might not get 5 shots as he only has 3 all this season.
I feel with his ability to skate and hit that McLaren could be a top enforcer like Boston's Thornton who could play up to 10 minutes a game, chip in the odd goal and fight the idiots in the league successfully. He won't win many super heavyweight fights it appears but he should keep the other Leafs from worrying about it. I also wanted to see McLaren play hockey and fight when a Leaf player or goalie gets messed with and avoid staged fights entirely but this year he has only done the opposite.
Kin
New member
mr grieves said:
I never doubted you for a second.
Seriously though, I don't think where I am and assigning aspects of "blame" to Carlyle and Nonis are incompatible because for the record there are lots of things I don't like about what Carlyle and Nonis have done. I don't like how stubborn Carlyle's been about Orr/McLaren and Fraser and I think we can all agree that some of Nonis' off-season moves look bad at this point.
I just think that those things tend to be window dressing when the team's core just isn't good enough.
mr grieves
New member
Nik the Trik said:
And I never doubted you'd put this all in the perspective of the deep history of the modern Maple Leafs. Which I don't think is incompatible with where I am... I mostly agree with your assessment of the core. I'm just more at peace with the Leafs not being the Chicago Blackhawks for the foreseeable future.
mr grieves
New member
Nik the Trik said:
The Leafs do have among the fewest one-goal games in the league (about a third vs. the league average of about 50%). On the other hand, they have the most two-goal losses in the league, the vast majority of which (7 of the 8) were one-goal games before the EN was given up. Add those back in, and I'm sure they're around the average.
Anyhow, seems there's a resolution to this dispute: the team has its problems with their core and with the rest of their line-up. One problem they've had for several years, the other seems to be a mixture of "Carlyle hockey" and management overrating the core.
GhostofPotvin29
New member
It's being discussed on Twitter, but I don't get how you play McClement 17:41 but Lupul 16:41 (and that's with 3:00+ of PP time) and Holland 16:18 (with 3:00 pp time). The thinking is that they were trying to shutdown Crosby, but it seems like it would have made more sense to try to ride your offensive guys against a depleted D corps on Pittsburgh. Instead it felt like the whole team was sitting back and not pushing the pace - not that it's McClement's fault, but it seems like most of the games that McClement is up around 17:00 - 20:00 minutes are some of the Leafs worst offensive games.
OldTimeHockey
Active member
Potvin29 said:
While I don't disagree that playing McClement 17:00 minutes is too much, did it not seem that his line was the only one that was able to apply sustained pressure in the 1st period? It almost felt like they were the only line with some jump to start.
GhostofPotvin29
New member
OldTimeHockey said:
Yeah, the Lupul line had that awful shift to start the game. Maybe they were thrown in the doghouse after that. But I think as the game wore on, if you're struggling to get offense, just ride your big guns and if you lose, then you lose with your best players. They were coming off a 4 point game, so I think you gotta play Lupul and Holland more than McClement. Let Phaneuf/Gunnarsson handle Crosby, IMO.
OldTimeHockey
Active member
Potvin29 said:
True enough.
As a side note, am I the only one that doesn't like Kadri with the big boys. Yes he had the big game, but I find his game doesn't mesh. I actually think Holland may be more suited to play with Kessel and JvR. Kadri, IMO is more suited with Lupul.
Kessel and JvR seem to be a high flying act with little to no dipsy doodle while Kadri on the other hand likes to slow it down and dance at the blue line.
I do prefer Kadri to Bozak though
bustaheims
Active member
Nik the Trik said:
Sure, but good teams are in that position less than middle of the pack and bad teams. The Leafs are in that position too often. That's all I'm saying.
OldTimeHockey
Active member
bustaheims said:
Are the Leafs not a middle of the pack/bad team? I'd rate them closer to being a bad team than to being a good team.
GhostofPotvin29
New member
OldTimeHockey said:
I think Kessel does that too though. He often cuts back before making a pass through the middle. Kessel has very good passing ability, and I think Kadri does too. I don't think it's necessarily bad to have a guy like Kadri on that line who can make some moves and find those two. I think he would work well with Lupul too, but that's just because he's very skilled.
But yeah, better than Bozak for sure.
What bothers me the most:
We give the puck away with poor dump ins and lack of a forecheck.
We NEVER circle back and wait for fresh linemates to pass the puck too.
We have way to much tunnel vision... get the puck, dump it out and await the onslaught from the other team. We don't value the puck at all, we just give it to the other team.
We give the puck away with poor dump ins and lack of a forecheck.
We NEVER circle back and wait for fresh linemates to pass the puck too.
We have way to much tunnel vision... get the puck, dump it out and await the onslaught from the other team. We don't value the puck at all, we just give it to the other team.
bustaheims
Active member
OldTimeHockey said:
I wouldn't have said so before the season started, but, it's hard to argue against that now. However, in order to become a good team, the amount they rely on clutch plays late in the game to put up points is one of the areas they're going to have to work on.