Leafs @ Rangers - Nov. 15th, 7:00pm - SN, TSN 1050

[Kin]

Yes, thank you. That in no way explains why anyone would hope for a mediocre team but, well, you've certainly said words.

 

[Frank E]

Yes, thank you. That in no way explains why anyone would hope for a mediocre team but, well, you've certainly said words.

Not sure where you're getting that I suggested that anyone was hoping for a mediocre team...I was talking about getting average goaltending.

I was expecting a bad team...but bad because they can't score goals, not because of brutal goaltending.

 

[Bullfrog]

Yes, thank you. That in no way explains why anyone would hope for a mediocre team but, well, you've certainly said words.

Not sure where you're getting that I suggested that anyone was hoping for a mediocre team...I was talking about getting average goaltending.

I was expecting a bad team...but bad because they can't score goals, not because of brutal goaltending.

I thought what you said was clear. You were expecting (or hoping for) around average goaltending but for the team to still lose based on the rest of the roster's talent level.

 

[Frank E]

Yes, thank you. That in no way explains why anyone would hope for a mediocre team but, well, you've certainly said words.

Not sure where you're getting that I suggested that anyone was hoping for a mediocre team...I was talking about getting average goaltending.

I was expecting a bad team...but bad because they can't score goals, not because of brutal goaltending.

I thought what you said was clear. You were expecting (or hoping for) around average goaltending but for the team to still lose based on the rest of the roster's talent level.

Precisely.

 

[Kin]

Not sure where you're getting that I suggested that anyone was hoping for a mediocre team...I was talking about getting average goaltending.

I was expecting a bad team...but bad because they can't score goals, not because of brutal goaltending.

And average goaltending with a bad offense is a team that's likely to be mediocre, not bottom of the barrel. Really bad teams tend to be bad at preventing and scoring goals. The Leafs forwards/D aren't good, but they're not so bad that average goaltending wouldn't see them winning a fair number of games. To be at Buffalo or Arizona levels from last year, basically nothing can be "average". 

So, again, why would anyone hope for a team that was neither particularly awful nor particularly good? What positive outcome did that person foresee and hope would result out of this forward/defensive group and average goaltending that is not better accomplished by the same group and bad goalending?

 

[Frank E]

Not sure where you're getting that I suggested that anyone was hoping for a mediocre team...I was talking about getting average goaltending.

I was expecting a bad team...but bad because they can't score goals, not because of brutal goaltending.

And average goaltending with a bad offense is a team that's likely to be mediocre, not bottom of the barrel. Really bad teams tend to be bad at preventing and scoring goals. The Leafs forwards/D aren't good, but they're not so bad that average goaltending wouldn't see them winning a fair number of games. To be at Buffalo or Arizona levels from last year, basically nothing can be "average". 

So, again, why would anyone hope for a team that was neither particularly awful nor particularly good? What positive outcome did that person foresee and hope would result out of this forward/defensive group and average goaltending that is not better accomplished by the same group and bad goalending?

Neuvirth went 7-20 with the Sabres last year with a .918.  That'll do for me.  Hell, I'd even take Bernier's .912 of last year that helped us to a top 5 pick.  The Leafs are less offensively gifted this year, so I figured that'd be enough to get them in the bottom 5 again.

Let me make this point clear to you:  I wasn't hoping for the Leafs to win very many hockey games. I don't think anyone was claiming that they were hoping that they'd even be a mediocre team. 

I think what most expected was a tight checking team that would lose a lot of close games based on a lack of offensive firepower, not Bernier's .895 goaltending. 

 

[louisstamos]

Not sure where you're getting that I suggested that anyone was hoping for a mediocre team...I was talking about getting average goaltending.

I was expecting a bad team...but bad because they can't score goals, not because of brutal goaltending.

And average goaltending with a bad offense is a team that's likely to be mediocre, not bottom of the barrel. Really bad teams tend to be bad at preventing and scoring goals. The Leafs forwards/D aren't good, but they're not so bad that average goaltending wouldn't see them winning a fair number of games. To be at Buffalo or Arizona levels from last year, basically nothing can be "average". 

So, again, why would anyone hope for a team that was neither particularly awful nor particularly good? What positive outcome did that person foresee and hope would result out of this forward/defensive group and average goaltending that is not better accomplished by the same group and bad goalending?

I don't know about that - last year's Devils team I thought had above average goaltending from Corey Schneider (granted, they were middle-of-the-pack in terms of goals allowed), but were still a bad team.

 

[Kin]

I don't know about that - last year's Devils team I thought had above average goaltending from Corey Schneider (granted, they were middle-of-the-pack in terms of goals allowed), but were still a bad team.

In what way are the Devils not a perfect example of what I'm saying? They were 20+ points better than the bottom rung of the league with a sizable gap between them at #6 and the Hurricanes at #5.

And that's with, I think you'd agree, a collection of forwards and defensemen that are substantially worse than what the Leafs have.

 

[Kin]

Neuvirth went 7-20 with the Sabres last year with a .918.  That'll do for me.  Hell, I'd even take Bernier's .912 of last year that helped us to a top 5 pick.  The Leafs are less offensively gifted this year, so I figured that'd be enough to get them in the bottom 5 again.

Let me make this point clear to you:  I wasn't hoping for the Leafs to win very many hockey games. I don't think anyone was claiming that they were hoping that they'd even be a mediocre team. 

And you can say that a thousand times more and it still won't make sense without addressing the fundamental disconnect between wanting the Leafs to have average goaltending, something that is a key component in a team not being terrible, an wanting them to draft as high as possible. It's like saying "I don't want the Blue Jays to have a good offense, I just want them to hit lots of home runs".

There's a reason the Sabres traded Neuvirth.

 

[Tigger]

I suppose one could just use the Leafs as a comparison, unless you have to be one of Buffalo, Edmonton and Arizona to be a 'bad' team, which is ludicrous.

 

[Kin]

Fun fact: The Flyers, who drafted #7 last year, were closer to the President's Trophy than they were to the bottom of the league.

 

[L K]

I don't know about that - last year's Devils team I thought had above average goaltending from Corey Schneider (granted, they were middle-of-the-pack in terms of goals allowed), but were still a bad team.

In what way are the Devils not a perfect example of what I'm saying? They were 20+ points better than the bottom rung of the league with a sizable gap between them at #6 and the Hurricanes at #5.

And that's with, I think you'd agree, a collection of forwards and defensemen that are substantially worse than what the Leafs have.

New Jersey was an interesting team.  While the Leafs/Sabres/Edmonton/Arizona group fell off the map down the stretch, New Jersey did the opposite.  On January 31st the Devils had 45 points and the Leafs had 50 points.  The Devils played .500 hockey over the final 33 games of the year.  It also coincided with Schneider posting a .934 SV% over the final 28 games he played on the year.

 

[MetalRaven]

Neuvirth went 7-20 with the Sabres last year with a .918.  That'll do for me.  Hell, I'd even take Bernier's .912 of last year that helped us to a top 5 pick.  The Leafs are less offensively gifted this year, so I figured that'd be enough to get them in the bottom 5 again.

Let me make this point clear to you:  I wasn't hoping for the Leafs to win very many hockey games. I don't think anyone was claiming that they were hoping that they'd even be a mediocre team. 

And you can say that a thousand times more and it still won't make sense without addressing the fundamental disconnect between wanting the Leafs to have average goaltending, something that is a key component in a team not being terrible, an wanting them to draft as high as possible. It's like saying "I don't want the Blue Jays to have a good offense, I just want them to hit lots of home runs".

There's a reason the Sabres traded Neuvirth.

This entire re-build thing is a practice in cognitive dissonance. Im happy and cheer when we win although I should be disappointed that we gained points and potentially hurt our end draft position and in the end ruined the team forever. But im not...In the same vein I can be disappointed (read loss of hope rather then loss of expectation) that Bernier didn't wake up this morning and become Belfour in his prime even if it would mean we won more games and ultimately made things worse for the future.
Hope is where people hide from reality, and if being a fan had anything to do with reality we'd all jump ship to the top 10 teams every year.
Reality has no place here...they want us to want what fans don't want.

I guess you could break it down to logical vs emotional thinking.