Leafs trade Colborne

[Boston Leaf]

He's had more than enough chances in the Bosotn org and with the TO org to prove himself. Ive never been impressed. Im afraid Biggs will be the next in the line of busts

 

[Champ Kind]

I think the debate over whether it is Orr / McLaren > Joe Colborne is premature.  In my opinion - or maybe it's that I hope it so - Carter Ashton beat Colborne out of a spot on the team.  Once Clarkson returns, Ashton rolls down the lineup and takes the place of one of the fighters,

 

[Strangelove]

Regardless of the various good and bad reasons for doing this, if the move means I have to watch Orr loaf around with Kadri for even one shift due to injuries (a la last season), I'm going to be mighty pissed.

 

[moon111]

What does Colborne do really well?  What does he bring to the team?  Is he great on face-offs?  Passing?  Shooting?  Fighting?  Pestering?  Defending?  Skating?

 

[Champ Kind]

Regardless of the various good and bad reasons for doing this, if the move means I have to watch Orr loaf around with Kadri for even one shift due to injuries (a la last season), I'm going to be mighty pissed.

Well, if you're being objective you can't say Orr 'loafs' around with anyone.  His effort is not the issue.

 

[ZBBM]

I agree with pmrules.  As much as I don't like having both Orr and MacLaren on the roster (one is plenty) the only one to blame for Colborne's not making this team is Colborne.  He had a couple of decent games against the Bruins in the playoffs but the rest of the time played like a big bottle of vanilla extract.  A spot was there for the taking, and he didn't do anything to grab the brass ring.  This guy's burner looks permanently set on Medium Low.

But apart from "blame" and all its moral implications -- finding villains in thuggish Randy, his goon squad, and all that -- wouldn't you rather a bottom 6 of Kuli, Bolland, Raymond, Colborne, McClement, Orr/McLaren than Kuli, Bolland, Raymond, McLaren, McClement, and Orr?

The moral implication of blame is responsibility for one's own actions.  Yes?

Sure I'd rather, but not if Colborne among all the players named is the only one gifted his slot.  Which, to the Leafs credit, he wasn't.  It's kind of the whole point of competition and such.

 

[TML fan]

Don't discount the popularity of guys like Orr and McLaren in the dressing room. Team chemistry can be just as important as the talent level. As we have seen in the past, not everyone can be a role player.

 

[Bender]

I think the debate over whether it is Orr / McLaren > Joe Colborne is premature.  In my opinion - or maybe it's that I hope it so - Carter Ashton beat Colborne out of a spot on the team.  Once Clarkson returns, Ashton rolls down the lineup and takes the place of one of the fighters,

I agree - it was never about Colborne getting Orr's spot. I don't think we need Orr all that much honestly but how on earth could Joe Colborne be useful in a 4th line role playing 5-6mins a night? He couldn't even remotely put it together in pre-season either.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I think the debate over whether it is Orr / McLaren > Joe Colborne is premature.  In my opinion - or maybe it's that I hope it so - Carter Ashton beat Colborne out of a spot on the team.  Once Clarkson returns, Ashton rolls down the lineup and takes the place of one of the fighters,

I agree - it was never about Colborne getting Orr's spot. I don't think we need Orr all that much honestly but how on earth could Joe Colborne be useful in a 4th line role playing 5-6mins a night? He couldn't even remotely put it together in pre-season either.

I think he would be more useful than Orr or McLaren.  The more skilled players you can get into the lineup, the better IMO.  I don't know why the team never wants to have a 4th line that can do more than fight and occasionally hold onto the puck for 5 seconds - it would be to the team's benefit to have better overall players on the 4th line.  You're going to have games where you might want them to play some more minutes, but as it stands, I wouldn't trust them to.

 

[Corn Flake]

I think the debate over whether it is Orr / McLaren > Joe Colborne is premature.  In my opinion - or maybe it's that I hope it so - Carter Ashton beat Colborne out of a spot on the team.  Once Clarkson returns, Ashton rolls down the lineup and takes the place of one of the fighters,

I agree - it was never about Colborne getting Orr's spot. I don't think we need Orr all that much honestly but how on earth could Joe Colborne be useful in a 4th line role playing 5-6mins a night? He couldn't even remotely put it together in pre-season either.

This is the thing... it needs to be highlighted how lousy a camp and pre-season Colborne had.  It was his job to lose and he lost it in a big hurry. Dosen't really matter whether you like Orr & McLaren in the lineup - Colborne was undeserving of an NHL job based on this camp, and his track record in past camps doesn't help much either.

it's unfortunate, but he is unlikely to pan out as much of an NHL player unless this trade wakes him up.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I think the debate over whether it is Orr / McLaren > Joe Colborne is premature.  In my opinion - or maybe it's that I hope it so - Carter Ashton beat Colborne out of a spot on the team.  Once Clarkson returns, Ashton rolls down the lineup and takes the place of one of the fighters,

I agree - it was never about Colborne getting Orr's spot. I don't think we need Orr all that much honestly but how on earth could Joe Colborne be useful in a 4th line role playing 5-6mins a night? He couldn't even remotely put it together in pre-season either.

This is the thing... it needs to be highlighted how lousy a camp and pre-season Colborne had.  It was his job to lose and he lost it in a big hurry. Dosen't really matter whether you like Orr & McLaren in the lineup - Colborne was undeserving of an NHL job based on this camp, and his track record in past camps doesn't help much either.

it's unfortunate, but he is unlikely to pan out as much of an NHL player unless this trade wakes him up.

So he has to have a good camp to make the team, but Orr and McLaren can do almost nothing but exclusively fight and their jobs are secure?  It's been gone over again and again, but that kind of managing makes no sense to me.  They don't contribute offensively, they don't contribute defensively, they don't take faceoffs, they don't kill penalties, they occasionally throw some nice hits (when they can catch up to someone) - to me, Colborne could have done snow angels all camp and he'd still be more deserving of a spot on the team than them.  Taking penalties isn't a skill, and I've yet to be shown any tangible impact upon a team that fighting or intimidation has (and Chicago and Detroit are two pretty good test cases against it having any impact).

 

[Corn Flake]

I think the debate over whether it is Orr / McLaren > Joe Colborne is premature.  In my opinion - or maybe it's that I hope it so - Carter Ashton beat Colborne out of a spot on the team.  Once Clarkson returns, Ashton rolls down the lineup and takes the place of one of the fighters,

I agree - it was never about Colborne getting Orr's spot. I don't think we need Orr all that much honestly but how on earth could Joe Colborne be useful in a 4th line role playing 5-6mins a night? He couldn't even remotely put it together in pre-season either.

This is the thing... it needs to be highlighted how lousy a camp and pre-season Colborne had.  It was his job to lose and he lost it in a big hurry. Dosen't really matter whether you like Orr & McLaren in the lineup - Colborne was undeserving of an NHL job based on this camp, and his track record in past camps doesn't help much either.

it's unfortunate, but he is unlikely to pan out as much of an NHL player unless this trade wakes him up.

So he has to have a good camp to make the team, but Orr and McLaren can do almost nothing but exclusively fight and their jobs are secure?  It's been gone over again and again, but that kind of managing makes no sense to me.  They don't contribute offensively, they don't contribute defensively, they don't take faceoffs, they don't kill penalties, they occasionally throw some nice hits (when they can catch up to someone) - to me, Colborne could have done snow angels all camp and he'd still be more deserving of a spot on the team than them.  Taking penalties isn't a skill, and I've yet to be shown any tangible impact upon a team that fighting or intimidation has (and Chicago and Detroit are two pretty good test cases against it having any impact).

Boston is a pretty good test case FOR intimidation having an impact.  A team we happen to have to play against a lot. I don't really want to have the debate on having enforcers in the lineup again.  It's really not relevant as to whether Colborne played well enough to make the team.  Even if those two guys weren't there, he wouldn't have made it. Others would have beat him out.

 

[Frank E]

I think the debate over whether it is Orr / McLaren > Joe Colborne is premature.  In my opinion - or maybe it's that I hope it so - Carter Ashton beat Colborne out of a spot on the team.  Once Clarkson returns, Ashton rolls down the lineup and takes the place of one of the fighters,

I agree - it was never about Colborne getting Orr's spot. I don't think we need Orr all that much honestly but how on earth could Joe Colborne be useful in a 4th line role playing 5-6mins a night? He couldn't even remotely put it together in pre-season either.

This is the thing... it needs to be highlighted how lousy a camp and pre-season Colborne had.  It was his job to lose and he lost it in a big hurry. Dosen't really matter whether you like Orr & McLaren in the lineup - Colborne was undeserving of an NHL job based on this camp, and his track record in past camps doesn't help much either.

it's unfortunate, but he is unlikely to pan out as much of an NHL player unless this trade wakes him up.

So he has to have a good camp to make the team, but Orr and McLaren can do almost nothing but exclusively fight and their jobs are secure?  It's been gone over again and again, but that kind of managing makes no sense to me.  They don't contribute offensively, they don't contribute defensively, they don't take faceoffs, they don't kill penalties, they occasionally throw some nice hits (when they can catch up to someone) - to me, Colborne could have done snow angels all camp and he'd still be more deserving of a spot on the team than them.  Taking penalties isn't a skill, and I've yet to be shown any tangible impact upon a team that fighting or intimidation has (and Chicago and Detroit are two pretty good test cases against it having any impact).

Who would you have doing the fighting then?  You want $5 mil bucks worth of Clarkson sitting in the box for 5 minutes a game?

If Colborne could fight, he may very well have taken McLaren's or Orr's spot.

He can't fight much, so he'd better bring something else to the table...he didn't.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I think the debate over whether it is Orr / McLaren > Joe Colborne is premature.  In my opinion - or maybe it's that I hope it so - Carter Ashton beat Colborne out of a spot on the team.  Once Clarkson returns, Ashton rolls down the lineup and takes the place of one of the fighters,

I agree - it was never about Colborne getting Orr's spot. I don't think we need Orr all that much honestly but how on earth could Joe Colborne be useful in a 4th line role playing 5-6mins a night? He couldn't even remotely put it together in pre-season either.

This is the thing... it needs to be highlighted how lousy a camp and pre-season Colborne had.  It was his job to lose and he lost it in a big hurry. Dosen't really matter whether you like Orr & McLaren in the lineup - Colborne was undeserving of an NHL job based on this camp, and his track record in past camps doesn't help much either.

it's unfortunate, but he is unlikely to pan out as much of an NHL player unless this trade wakes him up.

So he has to have a good camp to make the team, but Orr and McLaren can do almost nothing but exclusively fight and their jobs are secure?  It's been gone over again and again, but that kind of managing makes no sense to me.  They don't contribute offensively, they don't contribute defensively, they don't take faceoffs, they don't kill penalties, they occasionally throw some nice hits (when they can catch up to someone) - to me, Colborne could have done snow angels all camp and he'd still be more deserving of a spot on the team than them.  Taking penalties isn't a skill, and I've yet to be shown any tangible impact upon a team that fighting or intimidation has (and Chicago and Detroit are two pretty good test cases against it having any impact).

Boston is a pretty good test case FOR intimidation having an impact.  A team we happen to have to play against a lot. I don't really want to have the debate on having enforcers in the lineup again.  It's really not relevant as to whether Colborne played well enough to make the team.  Even if those two guys weren't there, he wouldn't have made it. Others would have beat him out.

Boston intimidates (if they even do) because they have a big team whose big players can also play a regular shift.  Chara, Lucic, etc.  But they're good because they're a solid possession team who have solid team defense (Chara, Bergeron and Rask are among the elite at their respective positions).

They don't employ players who do nothing but fight.  The closest? Shawn Thornton - and he manages to both get more ice-time than either Orr or McLaren, as well as half the PIMs.

If those two weren't here and he still wouldn't have made it, then why aren't there guys taking their jobs?  I'm not letting it go because it makes no sense to intentionally ice worse hockey players.

 

[Corn Flake]

If those two weren't here and he still wouldn't have made it, then why aren't there guys taking their jobs?  I'm not letting it go because it makes no sense to intentionally ice worse hockey players.

Because clearly the Leafs value having enforcers in the lineup. Until another player shows they can play better AND enforce, they aren't going anywhere.  In the system, Devane is close. Very close to taking McLaren's job, IMO.  Broll is another but he's less fighter and more checker.

Also, finding guys who can go with heavyweights AND can play are few and far between.  It's why the Leafs got Clarkson.. he's a light heavyweight but not afraid of anyone, and can play in the top six. 

 

[Kin]

Yes.  A repetitive series of sucky minor moves eventually add up. 

I just re-watched Colborne play a nice game last year against the Bruins in the playoffs.  His play was significantly better than anything one could ever dream of getting out of a guy like Orr.  And Colborne has lots of time to improve.  And Colborne has a smaller cap hit.  And injuries will likely strike during the season and we have a lack of NHL center-depth but plenty of wingers.

I wasn't comparing him to Orr, though, I was talking about the general thinking about players "developing" while on a team's fourth line. It doesn't seem as though Colborne really had a chance to develop in Toronto regardless of whether or not Orr or McLaren were on the team.

 

[bustaheims]

Boston is a pretty good test case FOR intimidation having an impact.  A team we happen to have to play against a lot. I don't really want to have the debate on having enforcers in the lineup again.  It's really not relevant as to whether Colborne played well enough to make the team.  Even if those two guys weren't there, he wouldn't have made it. Others would have beat him out.

As I've gone over before and Potvin brought up here, Boston's "intimidation" doesn't come from guys who only contribute by fighting. It comes from having a bunch of guys in their lineup who are physically tough to play against. There's no one on their roster who only really contributes with their fists. Their most prevalent fighter has also played a significant role on their PK in past seasons (not so much last season, but very much so in the previous 2).

 

[Kin]

I think part of the problem has to be how stinking rich this kid is. Its very hard to get motivated for a season to be making 900,000 G when he has more money than that tied up in vehicles.  Unbelievably rich kids just dont have the desire.  And dont think Burkie's a fool. Find one of the richest families in Calgary and trade for his kid.  He did it in Toronto. I mean he gets a bigger allowance from his dad then he got payed by the leafs. I wish him well though. Burke will be in the room tying his skates no doubt.

Mike Comrie came from a pretty wealthy family and he had a pretty decent NHL career. Likewise there are lots of second generation NHL players who grew up in wealthy families. If NHL scouts seriously doubted the ambition of players who grew up in privileged circumstances someone like Seth Jones would never get drafted in the top 5.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I'm not crazy about having fighters on the team. But I have accepted that as long as Carlyle's the coach we're stuck with it. But what I don't get is why he sticks with Orr (and likely McLaren) when there's players like Broll, Devane, and Bodie in the system that can throw fists at other players faces AND be half decent at hockey. My problem with our current enforcers is that's all they are, face punchers. Other than in the playoffs when Orr was hitting Chara, they rarely get involved with the forecheck, they aren't good at cycling the puck around the boards, and they aren't good defensively.

You always hear how your 4th line is supposed to be your energy line, but I just don't see that with ours. When they come out I'm usually just hoping we don't get scored on, and a lot of the time I end up pretty disappointed. I think guys like Bodie/Broll/Devane would compete a lot harder just for the sake of keeping their jobs and bring a lot more energy to the ice when they're out there. Orr and McLaren just seem to skate around and follow the play.

 

[Kin]

I'm not crazy about having fighters on the team. But I have accepted that as long as Carlyle's the coach we're stuck with it. But what I don't get is why he sticks with Orr (and likely McLaren) when there's players like Broll, Devane, and Bodie in the system that can throw fists at other players faces AND be half decent at hockey. My problem with our current enforcers is that's all they are, face punchers. Other than in the playoffs when Orr was hitting Chara, they rarely get involved with the forecheck, they aren't good at cycling the puck around the boards, and they aren't good defensively.

You always hear how your 4th line is supposed to be your energy line, but I just don't see that with ours. When they come out I'm usually just hoping we don't get scored on, and a lot of the time I end up pretty disappointed. I think guys like Bodie/Broll/Devane would compete a lot harder just for the sake of keeping their jobs and bring a lot more energy to the ice when they're out there. Orr and McLaren just seem to skate around and follow the play.

For what it's worth, McLaren actually ranked 63rd in the league in goals per 60 minutes, ahead of guys like Bobby Ryan, Anze Kopitar and Patrick Marleau.