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Lou Will Not Return

Nik the Trik said:
Frank E said:
Nik the Trik said:
I mean, not to put too fine a point on it but we are talking about whether or not Dubas needed a lengthy apprenticeship before he could be hired to run a NHL team by...Brendan Shanahan.

You think Shanahan is in control of a billion dollar company?  Come on, Nik.

...No? I think it's his first job in the front office of a NHL team though. And that he only had a few years of experience in a tangentially related job prior to running the Leafs.

Of course I am arguing that Shanahan goofed by not hiring Dubas as GM so maybe he did need a few more years experience before he was hired.

LOL
 
Nik the Trik said:
Of course I am arguing
Lmao...and you will keep responding as long as someone disagrees with you. Dubas wasn't ready or he would have had the job 3 years ago. Shanny might not think he's ready now. I guess we'll find out in the coming days/weeks.
 
Guilt Trip said:
Nik the Trik said:
Of course I am arguing
Lmao...and you will keep responding as long as someone disagrees with you. Dubas wasn't ready or he would have had the job 3 years ago. Shanny might not think he's ready now. I guess we'll find out in the coming days/weeks.

Another graduate of Monty Pythons prestigious argument clinic.
 
I couldn't even graduate from that because I lost track of the argument.

In any case, I guess I'm OK with either Dubas or Hunter.

Or, if not them, Francis and Nieuwendyk are suddenly available.  :o :o :P
 
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
I couldn't even graduate from that because I lost track of the argument.

Don't worry. I'll figure out a way to make it a parable about septic tanks or something.
 
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
I couldn't even graduate from that because I lost track of the argument.

In any case, I guess I'm OK with either Dubas or Hunter.

Or, if not them, Francis and Nieuwendyk are suddenly available.  :o :o :P

Brian Burke too!
 
Nik the Trik said:
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
I couldn't even graduate from that because I lost track of the argument.

Don't worry. I'll figure out a way to make it a parable about septic tanks or something.

Text me when you got it together.
 
Guru Tugginmypuddah said:
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
I couldn't even graduate from that because I lost track of the argument.

In any case, I guess I'm OK with either Dubas or Hunter.

Or, if not them, Francis and Nieuwendyk are suddenly available.  :o :o :P

Brian Burke too!

Eep.
 
Former scouts that became GMs:
Jim Benning
Tim Murray
Don Sweeney
Marc Bergevin
Pierre Dorion
John Ferguson Jr.

You really want us to be on this list again?
 
Figures that the only guy I read who didn't really approve of the Lou dismissal was Steve Simmons.  Colour me not shocked.
 
Bullfrog said:
so you're suggesting that former scouts can't be good GMs?

In a 31 Thoughts Podcast sometime earlier this year apparently Friedman said something about how the league overall is cooling off on promoting scout-types to GM jobs.
 
CarltonTheBear said:
Bullfrog said:
so you're suggesting that former scouts can't be good GMs?

In a 31 Thoughts Podcast sometime earlier this year apparently Friedman said something about how the league overall is cooling off on promoting scout-types to GM jobs.

I don't know how much actual experience Hunter would have with GM type duties.  I know he's officially listed as AGM, but by all accounts he's always in a rink scouting and evaluating talent.  Dubas on the other hand has been running the Marlies as the GM the last few seasons, so he has way more practical GM experience it would seem.  I have no idea if Hunter performed the GM duties in London or left that to his brother and he handled the scouting.
 
Scouts are very good for certain things (talent evaluation). Coaches are very good for certain things (tactics, motivation). Those are not the sole priorities of a modern NHL GM -- i.e. what makes a good scout doesn't necessarily translate to general management.

GMs are generally the interface between ownership and operations and the public/media. Depending on the team's management structure and where the chains of command are spooled, it's far more than just making draft picks and chumming up with the buddies and shooting trade ideas.

Where teams have faltered is when they really dig in on one great thing, but the rest of their operation lies fallow. Florida's non-Tallon GMs had pretty excellent talent evaluation, but burned all their relationship bridges (and thus, public perception and support). Buffalo was so focused on tanking that they got pretty solidly stuck. Vancouver's GM has no spine to stand up to ownership and as a result has no draft picks to even leverage his scouting talent.

What Lou, who previously had zero hockey experience when he started, was good at was treating people very well internally (they buy in; there is a ridiculous amount of love and respect for Lou regardless of his hockey decisions out there in the industry), setting up an environment conducive to going about business (leak-free!), and being ice cold in executing business decisions (Robidas Island).

Generally, I think it's a good idea for tear downs to be executed by a different person than the one who first built it, and in turn should be built up again by another person. Lou tore things down excellently: Winnik x2, Polak+Spaling = 2 2nds!, Phanuef, Lupul, Robidas, Olli Jokinen got an asset!. Lou hasn't really built very well in the time he has started pulling things together.

My current theory about the 3-year Lamoriello era is not so much one of apprenticeship as I first surmised, but more like giving time for the true management team to learn to work together. I think Babcock coming in was a bit of a surprise (Guy Boucher was practically touring MLSE offices when the decision came down). I think Shanahan knew the benefits of Babcock on the ice and in the dressing room, but also understanding that the gravity that Babcock exerts on everyone (i.e. the team Shanahan had already built) presented a danger to any new executives working with him.

In comes Lamoriello, who Babcock knows and respects implicitly, and everyone falls in line under that umbrella, while at the same time still falling under Shanahan's umbrella of collaboration. This forces Babcock to work with Dubas and to work with Hunter, to argue their various sides and execute their authority over their domains, with the buck stopping at Lou (who I'm guessing sided with Babcock more often than not).

After 3 years, Babcock has seen what some of Hunter's and Dubas' decisions have wrought: Marner > Hanifin/Werenski/Provorov, the rise of speedy skilled players even on the lower lines, successful Marlies runs. I can imagine Babcock buying in more readily now to whatever Dubas and co. are building.
 
Nik the Trik said:
Guilt Trip said:
Nik the Trik said:
Of course I am arguing
Lmao...and you will keep responding as long as someone disagrees with you. Dubas wasn't ready or he would have had the job 3 years ago. Shanny might not think he's ready now. I guess we'll find out in the coming days/weeks.

Another graduate of Monty Pythons prestigious argument clinic.
That was never 5 minutes just now!
 
herman said:
My current theory about the 3-year Lamoriello era is not so much one of apprenticeship as I first surmised, but more like giving time for the true management team to learn to work together.

I agree with this. I think Lamoriello's role was less to do with the on-ice product, and more with building a solid management foundation to insulate against the soap opera effect that plagued prior Leafs management groups - particularly difficult and relevant in this market. No one will ever know for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if players/acquisitions/etc were more of a consensus decision, including the decision not to trade JVR/Bozak.

As well, like it or not, the NHL GM fraternity are still for the most part, a very old-school, blue-blood type. While one could argue about the relevance of "mentorship" at the NHL level, I think there's something to be said for the benefit of gradual integration of Dubas to these people and conversations in particular via Lamoriello.
 
herman said:
Lou tore things down excellently: Winnik x2, Polak+Spaling = 2 2nds!, Phanuef, Lupul, Robidas, Olli Jokinen got an asset!.

Yeah...no. See, for instance, the Armchair GM thread.
 
Nik the Trik said:
herman said:
Lou tore things down excellently: Winnik x2, Polak+Spaling = 2 2nds!, Phanuef, Lupul, Robidas, Olli Jokinen got an asset!.

Yeah...no. See, for instance, the Armchair GM thread.

I did forget to mention he did not tear it down enough, so touche. He eked a lot of value out of our valueless assets, but opted to not trade in our bigger chits.
 
Nothing ground-breaking here but Brian Burke talked to MacLean about the Lou situation last night:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/brian-burke-weighs-maple-leafs-lamoriello-replacement/

I enjoy Burke much more on the camera than behind a GM's desk. Wonder if his plan is to make this more of a full-time gig (Cherry replacement maybe one day?)
 

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