Average Joes
New member
Nik the Trik said:
LOL
Lou Will Not Return
- Thread starter Guilt Trip
- Start date
LOL
Guilt Trip
Active member
Lmao...and you will keep responding as long as someone disagrees with you. Dubas wasn't ready or he would have had the job 3 years ago. Shanny might not think he's ready now. I guess we'll find out in the coming days/weeks.Nik the Trik said:
Guru Tugginmypuddah
Active member
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:I couldn't even graduate from that because I lost track of the argument.
In any case, I guess I'm OK with either Dubas or Hunter.
Or, if not them, Francis and Nieuwendyk are suddenly available.
Brian Burke too!
Bullfrog said:
In a 31 Thoughts Podcast sometime earlier this year apparently Friedman said something about how the league overall is cooling off on promoting scout-types to GM jobs.
Zee
Active member
CarltonTheBear said:
I don't know how much actual experience Hunter would have with GM type duties. I know he's officially listed as AGM, but by all accounts he's always in a rink scouting and evaluating talent. Dubas on the other hand has been running the Marlies as the GM the last few seasons, so he has way more practical GM experience it would seem. I have no idea if Hunter performed the GM duties in London or left that to his brother and he handled the scouting.
herman
Well-known member
Scouts are very good for certain things (talent evaluation). Coaches are very good for certain things (tactics, motivation). Those are not the sole priorities of a modern NHL GM -- i.e. what makes a good scout doesn't necessarily translate to general management.
GMs are generally the interface between ownership and operations and the public/media. Depending on the team's management structure and where the chains of command are spooled, it's far more than just making draft picks and chumming up with the buddies and shooting trade ideas.
Where teams have faltered is when they really dig in on one great thing, but the rest of their operation lies fallow. Florida's non-Tallon GMs had pretty excellent talent evaluation, but burned all their relationship bridges (and thus, public perception and support). Buffalo was so focused on tanking that they got pretty solidly stuck. Vancouver's GM has no spine to stand up to ownership and as a result has no draft picks to even leverage his scouting talent.
What Lou, who previously had zero hockey experience when he started, was good at was treating people very well internally (they buy in; there is a ridiculous amount of love and respect for Lou regardless of his hockey decisions out there in the industry), setting up an environment conducive to going about business (leak-free!), and being ice cold in executing business decisions (Robidas Island).
Generally, I think it's a good idea for tear downs to be executed by a different person than the one who first built it, and in turn should be built up again by another person. Lou tore things down excellently: Winnik x2, Polak+Spaling = 2 2nds!, Phanuef, Lupul, Robidas, Olli Jokinen got an asset!. Lou hasn't really built very well in the time he has started pulling things together.
My current theory about the 3-year Lamoriello era is not so much one of apprenticeship as I first surmised, but more like giving time for the true management team to learn to work together. I think Babcock coming in was a bit of a surprise (Guy Boucher was practically touring MLSE offices when the decision came down). I think Shanahan knew the benefits of Babcock on the ice and in the dressing room, but also understanding that the gravity that Babcock exerts on everyone (i.e. the team Shanahan had already built) presented a danger to any new executives working with him.
In comes Lamoriello, who Babcock knows and respects implicitly, and everyone falls in line under that umbrella, while at the same time still falling under Shanahan's umbrella of collaboration. This forces Babcock to work with Dubas and to work with Hunter, to argue their various sides and execute their authority over their domains, with the buck stopping at Lou (who I'm guessing sided with Babcock more often than not).
After 3 years, Babcock has seen what some of Hunter's and Dubas' decisions have wrought: Marner > Hanifin/Werenski/Provorov, the rise of speedy skilled players even on the lower lines, successful Marlies runs. I can imagine Babcock buying in more readily now to whatever Dubas and co. are building.
GMs are generally the interface between ownership and operations and the public/media. Depending on the team's management structure and where the chains of command are spooled, it's far more than just making draft picks and chumming up with the buddies and shooting trade ideas.
Where teams have faltered is when they really dig in on one great thing, but the rest of their operation lies fallow. Florida's non-Tallon GMs had pretty excellent talent evaluation, but burned all their relationship bridges (and thus, public perception and support). Buffalo was so focused on tanking that they got pretty solidly stuck. Vancouver's GM has no spine to stand up to ownership and as a result has no draft picks to even leverage his scouting talent.
What Lou, who previously had zero hockey experience when he started, was good at was treating people very well internally (they buy in; there is a ridiculous amount of love and respect for Lou regardless of his hockey decisions out there in the industry), setting up an environment conducive to going about business (leak-free!), and being ice cold in executing business decisions (Robidas Island).
Generally, I think it's a good idea for tear downs to be executed by a different person than the one who first built it, and in turn should be built up again by another person. Lou tore things down excellently: Winnik x2, Polak+Spaling = 2 2nds!, Phanuef, Lupul, Robidas, Olli Jokinen got an asset!. Lou hasn't really built very well in the time he has started pulling things together.
My current theory about the 3-year Lamoriello era is not so much one of apprenticeship as I first surmised, but more like giving time for the true management team to learn to work together. I think Babcock coming in was a bit of a surprise (Guy Boucher was practically touring MLSE offices when the decision came down). I think Shanahan knew the benefits of Babcock on the ice and in the dressing room, but also understanding that the gravity that Babcock exerts on everyone (i.e. the team Shanahan had already built) presented a danger to any new executives working with him.
In comes Lamoriello, who Babcock knows and respects implicitly, and everyone falls in line under that umbrella, while at the same time still falling under Shanahan's umbrella of collaboration. This forces Babcock to work with Dubas and to work with Hunter, to argue their various sides and execute their authority over their domains, with the buck stopping at Lou (who I'm guessing sided with Babcock more often than not).
After 3 years, Babcock has seen what some of Hunter's and Dubas' decisions have wrought: Marner > Hanifin/Werenski/Provorov, the rise of speedy skilled players even on the lower lines, successful Marlies runs. I can imagine Babcock buying in more readily now to whatever Dubas and co. are building.
Highlander
Active member
That was never 5 minutes just now!Nik the Trik said:
Highlander
Active member
I just looked at a picture of Dubas with those Clark Kent glass's and imagined Superman Jr. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Phileas Fogg
New member
herman said:
I agree with this. I think Lamoriello's role was less to do with the on-ice product, and more with building a solid management foundation to insulate against the soap opera effect that plagued prior Leafs management groups - particularly difficult and relevant in this market. No one will ever know for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if players/acquisitions/etc were more of a consensus decision, including the decision not to trade JVR/Bozak.
As well, like it or not, the NHL GM fraternity are still for the most part, a very old-school, blue-blood type. While one could argue about the relevance of "mentorship" at the NHL level, I think there's something to be said for the benefit of gradual integration of Dubas to these people and conversations in particular via Lamoriello.
Nothing ground-breaking here but Brian Burke talked to MacLean about the Lou situation last night:
https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/brian-burke-weighs-maple-leafs-lamoriello-replacement/
I enjoy Burke much more on the camera than behind a GM's desk. Wonder if his plan is to make this more of a full-time gig (Cherry replacement maybe one day?)
https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/brian-burke-weighs-maple-leafs-lamoriello-replacement/
I enjoy Burke much more on the camera than behind a GM's desk. Wonder if his plan is to make this more of a full-time gig (Cherry replacement maybe one day?)