Zee said:I don't think it's somewhere in between, I think it's closer to the lower end.
Fwiw that actually does count as being somewhere in between...
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Zee said:I don't think it's somewhere in between, I think it's closer to the lower end.
Erndog said:Sarge said:Erndog said:It hit me last night. We aren't a playoff team. And it's not because of 1 loss or anything but I've come to grips with a lot of things lately. Since the first 2-3 weeks of the year we've been a .500 team (worse!). We just have too many holes to plug, and too many teams around us are winning now (Ottawa, Washington, NJ, etc).
We still need a #1 center, a power forward, heck any sort of team toughness, and probably above all, consistent goaltending. Our goaltending might be okay if we were a powerhouse offensively or if we allowed the least shots on goal or something but we're neither. We need above average goaltending 9 games out of 10 and we just aren't getting it.
So no, this isn't a chicken little post or anything but I've really been looking at things objectively lately and I don't see a playoff team here. I do see a decent young team (last night Phaneuf was our oldest Dman at what? 26?), some moveable parts, some good guys going forward but as it stands, today, this is not a playoff team.
I'm with you 100% - My feelings exactly. I think the difference here is that we have more "parts" that real contenders may want for their run than we did last year so in that regard, YAY?
I would think so. Grabovski immediately comes to mind but really, what is he worth? Would some team give us a late 1st for him? Even if they did, is that worth it to us or do we try to extend him?
Same can be said for Liles. If we get a 2nd for him... whoopdy doo... chances are that 2nd won't turn into a Lucic/Bergeron type.
Those 2 are really the only 2 I think that might have some decent value and we would consider moving.
Tigger said:For me that wouldn't be the end of the world if it happened and for others it could even be a happy dance day as Wilson would likely be gone.
Last year Burke made a similar determination and I think it had a net benefit, one more year like that could be a good thing overall for long term success.
L K said:Erndog said:Sarge said:Erndog said:It hit me last night. We aren't a playoff team. And it's not because of 1 loss or anything but I've come to grips with a lot of things lately. Since the first 2-3 weeks of the year we've been a .500 team (worse!). We just have too many holes to plug, and too many teams around us are winning now (Ottawa, Washington, NJ, etc).
We still need a #1 center, a power forward, heck any sort of team toughness, and probably above all, consistent goaltending. Our goaltending might be okay if we were a powerhouse offensively or if we allowed the least shots on goal or something but we're neither. We need above average goaltending 9 games out of 10 and we just aren't getting it.
So no, this isn't a chicken little post or anything but I've really been looking at things objectively lately and I don't see a playoff team here. I do see a decent young team (last night Phaneuf was our oldest Dman at what? 26?), some moveable parts, some good guys going forward but as it stands, today, this is not a playoff team.
I'm with you 100% - My feelings exactly. I think the difference here is that we have more "parts" that real contenders may want for their run than we did last year so in that regard, YAY?
I would think so. Grabovski immediately comes to mind but really, what is he worth? Would some team give us a late 1st for him? Even if they did, is that worth it to us or do we try to extend him?
Same can be said for Liles. If we get a 2nd for him... whoopdy doo... chances are that 2nd won't turn into a Lucic/Bergeron type.
Those 2 are really the only 2 I think that might have some decent value and we would consider moving.
I think you need to turf MacArthur, and quite frankly, if someone would take Connolly, I would get rid of him too. He's not bad, but he doesn't seem to work with Kessel and isn't a long-term solution player.
Personally, I would like to keep Grabovski, he's not a smasher physically but he plays the game the right way and he's one of the few guys who throws his body at guys AND is willing to take contact to make plays. That and I think he's really become a decent two-way player since his first few games in Toronto.
Erndog said:Championship caliber!
bustaheims said:Tigger said:For me that wouldn't be the end of the world if it happened and for others it could even be a happy dance day as Wilson would likely be gone.
Last year Burke made a similar determination and I think it had a net benefit, one more year like that could be a good thing overall for long term success.
Yeah, as much as I'd like the Leafs to make the playoffs, the potential returns from moving Liles, Grabovski, whoever at the deadline could very well be that much more beneficial to the team in terms of becoming long-term contenders - and, that's a much bigger concern to me than just making the playoffs this season.
L K said:bustaheims said:Tigger said:For me that wouldn't be the end of the world if it happened and for others it could even be a happy dance day as Wilson would likely be gone.
Last year Burke made a similar determination and I think it had a net benefit, one more year like that could be a good thing overall for long term success.
Yeah, as much as I'd like the Leafs to make the playoffs, the potential returns from moving Liles, Grabovski, whoever at the deadline could very well be that much more beneficial to the team in terms of becoming long-term contenders - and, that's a much bigger concern to me than just making the playoffs this season.
I guess my one counter to that would be that I think it is unfortunate that we would essentially be half tearing down the roster for the 3rd or 4th time since JFJ was fired without once firing the coach to see if maybe it was that his message/system just wasn't getting the team up to that next level. I don't think the Leafs have ever quit on Wilson like the Penguins looked before they brought in Bylsma, but it's that one big "what if" I have with the team.
Madferret said:Optimus Reimer said:Significantly Insignificant said:BlueWhiteBlood said:Significantly Insignificant said:They are in the playoffs and the Leafs are not. Realistically, that is the first step. Once you get in anything can happen. I would say the basis for cup contention begins with making the playoffs.
Good thing it doesn't matter until the end of the season. Even then, qualifying for the playoffs, doesn't mean your a contending team.
But if the Senators are in the playoffs, and the Leafs aren't, which one is further along for contending for the cup?
I do not expect the turds to be a long term cup contender. Having too many young players who have no playoff experience will come back to haunt them, and long term, there are no guarantees.
So if / when the too many young Leaf players <youngest in the league right?> make the playoffs what happens to this logic? Out the window right?
L K said:bustaheims said:Tigger said:For me that wouldn't be the end of the world if it happened and for others it could even be a happy dance day as Wilson would likely be gone.
Last year Burke made a similar determination and I think it had a net benefit, one more year like that could be a good thing overall for long term success.
Yeah, as much as I'd like the Leafs to make the playoffs, the potential returns from moving Liles, Grabovski, whoever at the deadline could very well be that much more beneficial to the team in terms of becoming long-term contenders - and, that's a much bigger concern to me than just making the playoffs this season.
I guess my one counter to that would be that I think it is unfortunate that we would essentially be half tearing down the roster for the 3rd or 4th time since JFJ was fired without once firing the coach to see if maybe it was that his message/system just wasn't getting the team up to that next level. I don't think the Leafs have ever quit on Wilson like the Penguins looked before they brought in Bylsma, but it's that one big "what if" I have with the team.
L K said:I guess my one counter to that would be that I think it is unfortunate that we would essentially be half tearing down the roster for the 3rd or 4th time since JFJ was fired without once firing the coach to see if maybe it was that his message/system just wasn't getting the team up to that next level. I don't think the Leafs have ever quit on Wilson like the Penguins looked before they brought in Bylsma, but it's that one big "what if" I have with the team.
Sarge said:I think it's important to re-sign Liles. The defence as a whole just seems to play much better when he's there. In doing that, it probably means you have to move a good young kid (Aulie maybe) in a deal with a "part" (Mac or say, Connolly) for something else. I have no idea what the return would be but assuming we're sellers, maybe we'll see something like that happen.
bustaheims said:Sarge said:I think it's important to re-sign Liles. The defence as a whole just seems to play much better when he's there. In doing that, it probably means you have to move a good young kid (Aulie maybe) in a deal with a "part" (Mac or say, Connolly) for something else. I have no idea what the return would be but assuming we're sellers, maybe we'll see something like that happen.
I'm with you, but, at the same time, that wouldn't be enough to stop me from moving him at the deadline if the Leafs are out of it. If he gets back soon, produces well and shows he's symptom free, he could conceivably bring back a Kaberle-esque return, considering who else appears to be available and isn't under contract next season. With a new CBA coming up and some uncertainty surrounding it, the lack of commitment potentially increases his value on the trade market.
Sarge said:I think it's important to re-sign Liles. The defence as a whole just seems to play much better when he's there. In doing that, it probably means you have to move a good young kid (Aulie maybe) in a deal with a "part" (Mac or say, Connolly) for something else. I have no idea what the return would be but assuming we're sellers, maybe we'll see something like that happen.
Zee said:Yeah the 7-2-1 start really skewed the perception of this team. Since then the Leafs are 15-16-4, or 15 wins and 20 losses. That's not good enough by any stretch of the imagination.
Sarge said:I really appreciate your enthusiasm nutman but this isn't looking like our year. I do believe it's a better/deeper squad than last year but still - just not good enough.
Sarge said:I really appreciate your enthusiasm nutman but this isn't looking like our year. I do believe it's a better/deeper squad than last year but still - just not good enough.
Bullfrog said:Zee said:Yeah the 7-2-1 start really skewed the perception of this team. Since then the Leafs are 15-16-4, or 15 wins and 20 losses. That's not good enough by any stretch of the imagination.
But there's very value in selectively removing games. The fact is they're going to win a certain number and they're going to lose a certain number of games; you have to count them all.
Erndog says they have to go 22-15-0 (or thereabouts) to make the playoffs. That's really not far off from their current record of 22-18-5.
So arbitrarily removing the first 9 games then saying the leftover record is really not a valuable exercise. How do we know they won't fire off a 5 game winning streak?
Bullfrog said:But there's very value in selectively removing games. The fact is they're going to win a certain number and they're going to lose a certain number of games; you have to count them all.
Erndog says they have to go 22-15-0 (or thereabouts) to make the playoffs. That's really not far off from their current record of 22-18-5.
So arbitrarily removing the first 9 games then saying the leftover record is really not a valuable exercise. How do we know they won't fire off a 5 game winning streak?