Matthias to Avs for Colin Smith and a 4th round pick

[Kin]

Not getting Matthews would suck, but you don't need generational talent to win a team game -- it sure does help a lot though.

Yeah, this is where we get a little too caught up in labels like "generational" talent. There's a pretty good case that both Chicago and LA have built their teams without a player like that, even if they both have a number of guys who could credibly be involved in a discussion for being the best in the league at their position.

And, for that matter, while Matthews is certainly putting up big numbers I don't think he's discussed in that sort of way regardless. If "generational" talents are limited to your Crosby-Ovechkin-McDavid types then they can't really be your sole aim because they come along every 10 years or so.

 

[herman]

Not getting Matthews would suck, but you don't need generational talent to win a team game -- it sure does help a lot though.

It does help, but, honestly, the list of teams with generational talent forwards who have won the Cup in the last 20 years is pretty slim. Having a number of "elite" but not necessarily generational talents is much more important.

That'd be... Crosby/Malkin in 2009, Ducks in 2008 with Niedermayer/Pronger? Stretching it a bit further back: the Avalanche in 2001 had Roy (also Sakic and Forsberg).

Who else is 'generational' that hasn't won?

Usually it's a nice core of top 5 (in the league) players in key positions.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Not getting Matthews would suck, but you don't need generational talent to win a team game -- it sure does help a lot though.

It does help, but, honestly, the list of teams with generational talent forwards who have won the Cup in the last 20 years is pretty slim. Having a number of "elite" but not necessarily generational talents is much more important.

That'd be... Crosby/Malkin in 2009, Ducks in 2008 with Niedermayer/Pronger? Stretching it a bit further back: the Avalanche in 2001 had Roy (also Sakic and Forsberg).

Who else is 'generational' that hasn't won?

Usually it's a nice core of top 5 (in the league) players in key positions.

Going back 20 years...Lindros?

 

[rdowdall]

Not getting Matthews would suck, but you don't need generational talent to win a team game -- it sure does help a lot though.

It does help, but, honestly, the list of teams with generational talent forwards who have won the Cup in the last 20 years is pretty slim. Having a number of "elite" but not necessarily generational talents is much more important.

That'd be... Crosby/Malkin in 2009, Ducks in 2008 with Niedermayer/Pronger? Stretching it a bit further back: the Avalanche in 2001 had Roy (also Sakic and Forsberg).

Who else is 'generational' that hasn't won?

Usually it's a nice core of top 5 (in the league) players in key positions.

Ovechkin.

The talent doesn't have to be "once in a generation to win".  I wouldn't consider anyone in the Hawks core to be generational.  You need to be able to build the best team.

 

[herman]

Not getting Matthews would suck, but you don't need generational talent to win a team game -- it sure does help a lot though.

Yeah, this is where we get a little too caught up in labels like "generational" talent. There's a pretty good case that both Chicago and LA have built their teams without a player like that, even if they both have a number of guys who could credibly be involved in a discussion for being the best in the league at their position.

And, for that matter, while Matthews is certainly putting up big numbers I don't think he's discussed in that sort of way regardless. If "generational" talents are limited to your Crosby-Ovechkin-McDavid types then they can't really be your sole aim because they come along every 10 years or so.

Indeed. It's hard to say where Matthews slots into the conversation between McDavid and Eichel as well. Laine might force his way in, but centres are just valued more.

Chicago and LA definitely highlight how getting as many players in key positions from the tier immediately below the Crosbys/Ovechkins/McDavids level, from all over the draft, is how championships can be built.

 

[bustaheims]

That'd be... Crosby/Malkin in 2009, Ducks in 2008 with Niedermayer/Pronger? Stretching it a bit further back: the Avalanche in 2001 had Roy (also Sakic and Forsberg).

Who else is 'generational' that hasn't won?

Usually it's a nice core of top 5 (in the league) players in key positions.

Roy, Pronger and Niedermayer aren't forwards. Also, Ovechkin hasn't won. Jagr hasn't won since 92 - and he needed another generational type talent to help him (as did Crosby). As Potvin point out, Lindros never won.

And, that's assuming Matthews is, in fact, a generational talent rather than a "franchise" level talent, and the list of franchise players that haven't won the Cup is a long one.

 

[herman]

That'd be... Crosby/Malkin in 2009, Ducks in 2008 with Niedermayer/Pronger? Stretching it a bit further back: the Avalanche in 2001 had Roy (also Sakic and Forsberg).

Who else is 'generational' that hasn't won?

Usually it's a nice core of top 5 (in the league) players in key positions.

Roy, Pronger and Niedermayer aren't forwards. Also, Ovechkin hasn't won. Jagr hasn't won since 92 - and he needed another generational type talent to help him (as did Crosby). As Potvin point out, Lindros never won.

And, that's assuming Matthews is, in fact, a generational talent rather than a "franchise" level talent, and the list of franchise players that haven't won the Cup is a long one.

Oops! I missed your specification for generational forwards.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Roy, Pronger and Niedermayer aren't forwards. Also, Ovechkin hasn't won. Jagr hasn't won since 92 - and he needed another generational type talent to help him (as did Crosby). As Potvin point out, Lindros never won.

And, that's assuming Matthews is, in fact, a generational talent rather than a "franchise" level talent, and the list of franchise players that haven't won the Cup is a long one.

Pffff, good, I didn't want a generational talent anyway. Enjoy McDavid, suckers.

 

[bustaheims]

Pffff, good, I didn't want a generational talent anyway. Enjoy McDavid, suckers.

Well, we all know the Oilers aren't going anywhere, with or without him.

 

[hap_leaf]

In that respect, I'd take a star player with leadership qualities just as much as a 'generational' talent (who has none) any day.
Messier, Sakic, Iginla, Toews, Modano, Brett Hull...thank you very much.  That's going to win you the Cup.

That's where Gretzky had everything.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

the list of franchise players that haven't won the Cup is a long one.

To be that guy, wouldn't there be a "franchise" player winning the Cup every time?

 

[herman]

the list of franchise players that haven't won the Cup is a long one.

To be that guy, wouldn't there be a "franchise" player winning the Cup every time?

Yes, but there is also a list of franchise players that did not win. Sundin for example *weeps

More:
Iginla
Alfredsson
Luongo
Ovechkin
Nash
Lundqvist
Weber

 

[bustaheims]

the list of franchise players that haven't won the Cup is a long one.

To be that guy, wouldn't there be a "franchise" player winning the Cup every time?

Don't be that guy. But, yes, in theory. There is a long list of franchise players who have won a Cup, but the list that hasn't is longer. The point is that, just because the Leafs might miss out on one franchise guy doesn't mean that the season is a failure.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

the list of franchise players that haven't won the Cup is a long one.

To be that guy, wouldn't there be a "franchise" player winning the Cup every time?

Yes, but there is also a list of franchise players that did not win. Sundin for example *weeps

Then clearly if generational talents and franchise players often don't win the Cup, the only answer is obvious: Dave Bolland.

 

[rdowdall]

the list of franchise players that haven't won the Cup is a long one.

To be that guy, wouldn't there be a "franchise" player winning the Cup every time?

Don't be that guy. But, yes, in theory. There is a long list of franchise players who have won a Cup, but the list that hasn't is longer. The point is that, just because the Leafs might miss out on one franchise guy doesn't mean that the season is a failure.

How do you define failure?  Because in essence, this season has been a failure.  It's just that they wanted it to be a failure, so they succeeded.

 

[Kin]

Yes, but there is also a list of franchise players that did not win. Sundin for example *weeps

More:
Iginla
Alfredsson
Luongo
Ovechkin
Nash
Lundqvist
Weber

But isn't Ovechkin generational, not franchise? And by including the likes of Nash and Alfredsson on a list with Sundin or Iginla(where with the former it would be tough to argue that they were ever really the best player on a cup contending team) aren't you stretching the definition of Franchise player to sort of a meaningless point?

I'll be honest, I've lost track of the discussion. Franchise player good, Generational player better, high draft pick make happy, yes?

 

[bustaheims]

How do you define failure?  Because in essence, this season has been a failure.  It's just that they wanted it to be a failure, so they succeeded.

I'd define failure as not meeting your goals. Their goal was to land a high draft pick. That looks like it's almost certainly going to happen.

 

[herman]

the list of franchise players that haven't won the Cup is a long one.

To be that guy, wouldn't there be a "franchise" player winning the Cup every time?

Don't be that guy. But, yes, in theory. There is a long list of franchise players who have won a Cup, but the list that hasn't is longer. The point is that, just because the Leafs might miss out on one franchise guy doesn't mean that the season is a failure.

How do you define failure?  Because in essence, this season has been a failure.  It's just that they wanted it to be a failure, so they succeeded.

I see what you did there.

 

[bustaheims]

Then clearly if generational talents and franchise players often don't win the Cup, the only answer is obvious: Dave Bolland.

Genius. We need 23 David Bollands!

 

[Highlander]

agreed with Nik, what we are building is going to be a roller coaster fast team of very talented scorers. Should be fun to watch in a few years.