Most Improved Team?
- Thread starter Kin
- Start date
Madferret said:
They add Heatley's 64 pts and Setoguchi's 41 pts for a total of 105 pts added.
They give up Havlat's 62 pts and Brunette's 46 pts for a total of 108 pts lost.
Where's the big win offensively (which is what Minny sorely needs)? Chemistry? Ok but seriously, how many more points is that likely to produce?
Meanwhile among the forwards, Miettinen's 35pts and defence has moved on and Madden (their #3 faceoff guy) is unsigned.
On the backend, who replaces Burns 46 pts? Can Heatley & Setoguchi continue to produce the points they did in SJ on a team that is even weaker offensively on paper than they were last year and they were considerably weaker offensively than SJ last year?
I have my doubts. Not only do they not look like they've improved substantially. They may well have taken a step backward offensively.
It's possible I'm missing something here in terms of a player they're adding but that's my quick assessment of it.
Madferret
New member
cw said:
I think they're hoping to catch lightening in a bottle. Heater could resurge. Setoguchi could finally break out. If that line explodes it won't really matter how suspect the blueline may or may not be - as well as having Backstrom. They have goaltending and that's half the battle.
Madferret said:
Yes but they had that goaltending last year. It hasn't improved materially. Harding, who is decent, is back from injury to replace Theodore who played decent.
If they get a full season out of Zidlicky rather than a half, they'll get back half of Burns. If Latendresse plays all season, that helps replace Miettinen.
Koivu's a nice center but he's no Joe Thornton and I'd probably also prefer Patrick Marleau.
I just don't see the big improvement unless it's coming from some great kids coming along (which I did not see in their D depth chart for offensive dmen).
The biggest improvement is probably in the number of Wild fans crossing their fingers hoping for the media hype over rational talent judgment.
It's not really fair to call Heatley a 64-point player. He had an off-year with some injuries thrown in too, I'm sure he'll get back to his PPG rate. He's a definite improvement over Havlat.
bustaheims
Well-known member
CarltonTheBear said:
I don't know. He's definitely going to experience a downgrade in the quality of his linemates - as much as I like Koivu and Setoguchi, they're a pretty clear step down from Thornton and Marleau. Meanwhile, Havlat likely upgrades his linemates to Thornton and Marleau. It actually wouldn't surprise me is Havlat out produces Heatley this season (if he can stay healthy).
L K
Well-known member
Busta Reims said:
I think that's a bit unfair to assume. Havlat has broken 70 points once since the lockout whereas this was the first time that Heatley fell below it since the lockout. Minnesota picked up a guy who puts the puck in the net in exchange for a guy who is more of a passer than pure goalscorer, so from that standpoint, I think it was a better deal for Minnesota simply because Minnesota doesn't have guys who can finish. San Jose picked up a guy who has hit 30 goals once, and is now going to be paired up with Jumbo Joe who is notorious for being a guy who struggles to hit 20 goals (while putting up insane assist totals). Maybe Havlat gets a bump in his goals total from Thornton's feeds, but I think Minnesota needed what Heatley provides more than San Jose needed another guy who is more of an assists first guy.
Busta Reims said:
I've always thought of Heatley to be the type of player who can produce without top linemates. I'm not saying playing with Thornton and Marleau didn't help, but I still think he can hit PPG numbers next season. But I wasn't debating who puts up better numbers next season between Heatley and Havlat. It was implied that the trade didn't improve Minnesota offensively, which I completely disagree with. Heatley will do more in Minnesota than Havlat did/would.
CarltonTheBear said:
Heatley only missed two games due to a suspension last year.
Heatley 1.03ppg career
Setoguchi 0.60ppg career (with two most recent seasons below that)
===============
Total 1.63ppg
Havlat 0.82ppg career
Brunette 0.68ppg career
===============
Total 1.50ppg
I would suggest that some of Healey's ppg is a result of his years with Spezza-Alfredsson and Thornton-Marleau and that Havlat hasn't enjoyed that talent in MN. When Havlat did in Chicago, he was close to a ppg player as he was in Ottawa in the years when he got top 3 ice and linemates.
I don't think Koivu & Setoguchi measure up to what Heatley has played with in the past.
Heatley may be a little better player offensively than Havlat but I think the gap is narrower than their respective ppgs and I think the switch of locations for the two players and the lack of offence from the back end in MN will curtail Heatley's production some while Havlat should enjoy picking up more points with SJ.
Again, I do not see a big win here for MN's offence. Maybe a slight improvement for the two forwards they replaced in their top 6 but without replacing Burns, they're more likely to slip offensively overall.
bustaheims
Well-known member
CarltonTheBear said:
Sure, but, at the same time, he's never been in a situation where he was the clear number threat like he will be in Minnesota. The defensive team will be able to focus on him a little more now than they could when he was playing with Kovalchuk or Spezza and Alfredsson or Marleau and Thornton.
cw said:
To clarify, I don't disagree that points wise Heatley and Havlat will likely be pretty close to each other next season. But I still think that Heatley is the superior player, by a fair margin. The impact he will have on Minnesota's offence will be greater than the impact Havlat had on it.
With that said, I agree with you on your position of their offence and team in general. I don't like the Burns trade whatsoever.
Busta Reims said:
You could argue that Heatley was the most dangerous player on the ice in each of those situations. He's had to deal with that his entire career, and elite players always manage to produce regardless of it.
bustaheims
Well-known member
CarltonTheBear said:
Yeah, but, the same time, he had guys with multiple 30+ goal seasons and elite playmakers on the ice with him at the same time. The defence had to be more spread out than they'll be able to be now. He may have been the most dangerous goal scorer on the ice in Ottawa and San Jose, but, I'm not sure I'd consider him the most dangerous overall player on either of those lines. In Minnesota, he clearly is, and, the defensive focus will be more on him than it was before. He'll still produce, sure, but his production is likely to drop because of it. I think what we're going to end up seeing is that the gap between Havlat and Heatley is, like cw said, is narrower than their totals thus far suggest.
CarltonTheBear said:
Five years ago, I might agree to "a fair margin". I'm not so sure now. Heatley seems to have become more of a perimeter player and not nearly what he was in Atlanta or Ottawa. I don't think Havlat has slipped as much. You might be right but I have some doubts.
Kin
Active member
princedpw said:
I don't buy that at all. Richards and Carter were legit losses and it's true that they didn't get assets immediately that will replace them in those trades but the idea that Philly will be worse off next year doesn't really make sense to me. They improved their bottom 6, they still have a lot of talent in their top 6, their D will be relatively unchanged and they have a legit #1 goalie for the first time in years. I'd definitely take the team with the weaker forward group/stronger goaltending over just about any team trotting out the Boucher/Bobrovsky tandem.
They gave up a lot of offense but adding Bryzgalov and a decent helping of jam in Talbot and Simmonds along with a promising young player in Schenn ( and a bit of an enigma in Voracek but a decent risk ) a few good draft picks and Jagr ( who should shore up the offense a little but I think is a bit of a nutty signing ) seems like a good trade off overall.
bustaheims
Well-known member
Philly's really a wildcard. I'd say their overall talent level dropped, though, probably not significantly, and, yeah, they definitely added a more talented goalie, but, they sacrificed some of their offensive depth, they top defensive pairing is getting older and slower, with Pronger trying to work through some pretty serious injuries - to the point where he may not be ready for the start of the season - and their team chemistry has really been massively reformulated this summer, and it remains to be seen how they make that work. They could very easily maintain their position as the team to beat in the Atlantic or they could really struggle to come together as a cohesive unit and drop down into to middle of the pack (or lower, though, that seems unlikely). I mean, it certainly wouldn't be the first time we've seen a team go through a fairly significant overhaul in the summer and look pretty good on paper, only to see them really struggle to come together as a team and have a disappointing season.
maplesyrup
New member
I said it in the old forum but Voracek is my pick for break-out player of the year. I don't think 70 pts is out of the question for him. This of course is just my sports-gut talkin' so...