Most Improved Team?

[princedpw]

I think there were very few "losers" this offseason though.

Phoenix was one of them in my opinion.

Philly was another, at least short term.... where their window to compete for the cup is ...

I don't buy that at all. Richards and Carter were legit losses and it's true that they didn't get assets immediately that will replace them in those trades but the idea that Philly will be worse off next year doesn't really make sense to me. They improved their bottom 6, they still have a lot of talent in their top 6, their D will be relatively unchanged and they have a legit #1 goalie for the first time in years. I'd definitely take the team with the weaker forward group/stronger goaltending over just about any team trotting out the Boucher/Bobrovsky tandem.

I guess we'll see.  Philly fans seemed to be pretty high on Bob after a good regular season with a .915 save percentage.  I'm not sure how many more wins Bryz is worth.  I think the thing the Flyers have going for them is that van Reimsdyke could explode with 60-70 points.  The thing they have going against them is it looks like Pronger may not be ready for the beginning of the season and is looking increasingly brittle.  The Flyers just aren't the same without him.  Timonen and Briere are getting up there too.  So the equation might look like:  weaker forward group (especially at center), weaker top-2 defensemen, stronger goalie + huge player turnover and unknown chemistry.

Obviously, the unknowns are huge and I have no real idea how it is going to turn out ...

 

[cw]

I think Philly should make the playoffs. If Pronger can resume his form, they'll contend. But as others have said, there's been so many changes, it may take them a while to figure it all out and at the end of it all, they may not fit together as well as they envisioned or some of the older guys might have health issues. Regardless, they're a good team with a fine looking roster. They're just harder to predict how high they can go right now.

 

[Kin]

I guess we'll see.  Philly fans seemed to be pretty high on Bob after a good regular season with a .915 save percentage.  I'm not sure how many more wins Bryz is worth. 

They were high on him, I'd guess, right up until he lost his job in the playoffs. I think most of them, after that, realized that an upgrade on goaltending was necessary. If Bryzgalov is worth even a handful of extra regular season wins and provides better playoff goaltending then the Flyers will be very dangerous because they'll be as good a contender as any to win the President's trophy.

So the equation might look like:  weaker forward group (especially at center), weaker top-2 defensemen, stronger goalie + huge player turnover and unknown chemistry.

One of the things to consider about the weak forward group though is that while it may be marginally weaker it also freed up a bit of a backlog and will allow Philadelphia to go with a more traditional top 6/bottom 6. As I see it last year they had three lines making up a top 9.

Carter(who played a lot of wing)-Giroux-Powe/JVR/Zherdev
Hartnell-Leino-Briere
Nodl-Richards-Versteeg/JVR

That's a good team but it's also sort of a mish-mash. I wouldn't guess what their lines will be next year but assuming it's something like this:

Voracek-Giroux-JVR
Hartnell-Briere-Versteeg

Then I think you'd be hardpressed to say it wasn't a good enough top 6 to do some damage. Likewise that still leaves some very good players outside of their top 6 to make for interesting options on your plumbing lines(at this point I'm assuming Jagr will be a PP specialist who gets limited ice time).

So is it a weaker group in terms of a collection of talent? Yes. Is it a weaker group in terms of how they fit as a hockey team? I'm not convinced.

 

[Tigger]

I assume a typo but it will likely be either Simmonds or Jagr playing the right side on that second line Nik, not sure which one is more likely at this point, maybe Jagr to start with until he proves himself one way or another.

Edit to add that I think the question about chemistry is a fair one.

 

[Kin]

I assume a typo but it will likely be either Simmonds or Jagr playing the right side on that second line Nik, not sure which one is more likely at this point, maybe Jagr to start with until he proves himself one way or another.

Edit to add that I think the question about chemistry is a fair one.

Like I said, I wasn't trying to guess at lines. They have enough talent that, as you say, they could have a bunch of different ways to go. They could have a third line of Hartnell-Talbot-Versteeg or Hartnell-Talbot-Simmonds that would be a very good third line. Or they could hold off on Jagr or any number of things. My point was that as big a loss as Richards and Carter are they were replaced by capable players who may actually fit better into those spots and that Philly may have lost top 6 talent but they still have enough top 6 talent to have a very good top 6.

Also, I like pointing out that Mike Richards was a third liner.

 

[cw]

I assume a typo but it will likely be either Simmonds or Jagr playing the right side on that second line Nik, not sure which one is more likely at this point, maybe Jagr to start with until he proves himself one way or another.

Edit to add that I think the question about chemistry is a fair one.

Like I said, I wasn't trying to guess at lines. They have enough talent that, as you say, they could have a bunch of different ways to go. They could have a third line of Hartnell-Talbot-Versteeg or Hartnell-Talbot-Simmonds that would be a very good third line. Or they could hold off on Jagr or any number of things. My point was that as big a loss as Richards and Carter are they were replaced by capable players who may actually fit better into those spots and that Philly may have lost top 6 talent but they still have enough top 6 talent to have a very good top 6.

Also, I like pointing out that Mike Richards was a third liner.

They traded (dumped?) Versteeg to Florida.

van Riemsdyk  Giroux      Jagr/Voracek
Hartnell          Briere      Jagr/Voracek
Talbot            Schenn    Simmonds
Shelley          Betts        Nodl

Would be my guess. van Riemsdyk-Giroux and Hartnell-Briere were often paired together with success on lines during the last season or two.

I think they're counting on Schenn (or less likely Couturier) to center or play wing on their third line with Talbot as the alternate center. After that, the depth of the forwards on the Flyers seems thinner than in past years.

 

[Kin]

They traded (dumped?) Versteeg to Florida.

van Riemsdyk  Giroux      Jagr/Voracek
Hartnell          Briere      Jagr/Voracek
Talbot            Schenn    Simmonds
Shelley          Betts        Nodl

Would be my guess. van Riemsdyk-Giroux and Hartnell-Briere were often paired together with success on lines during the last season or two.

I think they're counting on Schenn (or less likely Couturier) to center or play wing on their third line with Talbot as the alternate center. After that, the depth of the forwards on the Flyers seems thinner than in past years.

Man, you'd think that of everyone I'd have remembered the Versteeg thing.

Anyways, that aside, I agree with you in general. They certainly don't have the depth they did and they very well may be counting on Schenn to step in immediately and contribute. That said I still think those four lines you put together are, assuming JVR plays well and Jagr still has something in the tank, really good lines. That's a very good third line if Schenn gives them anything and there's still quite a bit of firepower up top.

 

[cw]

They traded (dumped?) Versteeg to Florida.

van Riemsdyk  Giroux      Jagr/Voracek
Hartnell          Briere      Jagr/Voracek
Talbot            Schenn    Simmonds
Shelley          Betts        Nodl

Would be my guess. van Riemsdyk-Giroux and Hartnell-Briere were often paired together with success on lines during the last season or two.

I think they're counting on Schenn (or less likely Couturier) to center or play wing on their third line with Talbot as the alternate center. After that, the depth of the forwards on the Flyers seems thinner than in past years.

Man, you'd think that of everyone I'd have remembered the Versteeg thing.

Anyways, that aside, I agree with you in general. They certainly don't have the depth they did and they very well may be counting on Schenn to step in immediately and contribute. That said I still think those four lines you put together are, assuming JVR plays well and Jagr still has something in the tank, really good lines. That's a very good third line if Schenn gives them anything and there's still quite a bit of firepower up top.

You hit my keys: primarily if Schenn and Jagr can deliver in those roles, their D is basically the same (if healthy) and they upgraded in goal. So they have the potential to be a better club. If those two don't deliver, the chemistry doesn't work out or they suffer injuries (since they don't have the depth), they won't be as good of a club. It could go either way yet it's hard for me to imagine all that talent missing the playoffs.

 

[maplesyrup]

It could go either way yet it's hard for me to imagine all that talent missing the playoffs.

If Bryz plays like Bryz,  I personally find it hard to imagine them being anything less than a top four team in the east. 

edit: That defense though.... I don't like it much so perhaps I shouldn't wager anything on my above comment.

 

[Bender]

It could go either way yet it's hard for me to imagine all that talent missing the playoffs.

If Bryz plays like Bryz,  I personally find it hard to imagine them being anything less than a top four team in the east.

I'd say it's also contingent on all of the young players having good years. To rely on Van Riems and Voracek on the first line might be foolhardy I think. Hopefully Giroux can continue his elite level play. Jagr is a big maybe. He still played well in the KHL, but so has Morozov. Roman Cervenka outscored him last year on the same team (based on PPG pace). So while he's can still be a good player he's at about the age that all but Nik Lidstrom (and a few others) slow down at. Maybe he's one of those players, but he ain't getting any younger.

Briere is also getting older as well. He likely won't be affected that much, but it's still something to consider.

They're such a strange team. They've got possible blue chip young talent, and very good veteran talent, but there's question marks all over the place except for in goal. I think they'll be the roller coaster story next season.

 

[maplesyrup]

Did you watch much of the worlds? I was blown away with Jagr's play. Can he do that in the NHL over 82 games? Who knows but of he does - look out NHL!

 

[bustaheims]

Did you watch much of the worlds? I was blown away with Jagr's play. Can he do that in the NHL over 82 games? Who knows but of he does - look out NHL!

Yeah, but outside of Canada, the US, Russia and maybe Sweden (or not - just looked at their roster and it was not so good), most of the rosters at the WHC were probably less talented than the average NHL team.

 

[maplesyrup]

Did you watch much of the worlds? I was blown away with Jagr's play. Can he do that in the NHL over 82 games? Who knows but of he does - look out NHL!

Yeah, but outside of Canada, the US, Russia and maybe Sweden, most of the rosters at the WHC were probably less talented than the average NHL team.

Fair enough. However, I don't recall if Jagr had line-mates as good as Giroux, JVR, or Briere at the Worlds either though. 

 

[Bender]

Did you watch much of the worlds? I was blown away with Jagr's play. Can he do that in the NHL over 82 games? Who knows but of he does - look out NHL!

I'm not saying he's a bad player. I'm saying he's bound to slow down being 39 years of age. His age will eventually catch up with him. It might not be this year, but it also might, when compared to the new generation of young NHL talent. He could be a 70pt player, he could also be a 50pt player. It's a pretty big difference for someone you're relying heavily on in top 6 scoring, because frankly, I don't see their young prospects hitting beyond 60pts. They have the tools to do it, but I don't see it actually happening. I think what they're going for is a game of attrition: Wear out the other team with an excellent goaltender and win a lot of 2-1 games.

 

[bustaheims]

Fair enough. However, I don't recall if Jagr had line-mates as good as Giroux, JVR, or Briere at the Worlds either though.

Well, he had guys like Plekanec, Frolik, Elias, Michalek and Voracek on the roster with him, so, while his linemates may not have been at exactly the same level as the guys he'll be will in Philly, they certainly weren't far off.

 

[Bender]

Fair enough. However, I don't recall if Jagr had line-mates as good as Giroux, JVR, or Briere at the Worlds either though.

Well, he had guys like Plekanec, Frolik, Elias, Michalek and Voracek on the roster with him, so, while his linemates may not have been at exactly the same level as the guys he'll be will in Philly, they certainly weren't far off.

Plekanec and Elias, I would argue, are pretty much equal to Briere and Voracek/JVR.

 

[bustaheims]

Plekanec and Elias, I would argue, are pretty much equal to Briere and Voracek/JVR.

It's probably pretty close. Either way, I'd say the top 6 talent on the Czech team was very comparable to that of the Flyers going into this season - it's just that many of the teams in that tournament had rosters that may have struggled against AHL teams.

 

[maplesyrup]

Fair enough. However, I don't recall if Jagr had line-mates as good as Giroux, JVR, or Briere at the Worlds either though.

Well, he had guys like Plekanec, Frolik, Elias, Michalek and Voracek on the roster with him, so, while his linemates may not have been at exactly the same level as the guys he'll be will in Philly, they certainly weren't far off.

Speaking of Plekanec, the topic of Leaf centers vs. Habs centers came up yesterday...
Grabovski > Plekanec and Gomez
Connolly > Gomez (and possibly Plekanec too)

Anyway, I thought it was a neat thing to think about going forward in to this season. 

 

[maplesyrup]

Fair enough. However, I don't recall if Jagr had line-mates as good as Giroux, JVR, or Briere at the Worlds either though.

Well, he had guys like Plekanec, Frolik, Elias, Michalek and Voracek on the roster with him, so, while his linemates may not have been at exactly the same level as the guys he'll be will in Philly, they certainly weren't far off.

Plekanec and Elias, I would argue, are pretty much equal to Briere and Voracek/JVR.

Maybe. But consider Jagr probably wasn't skating with Voracek at the Worlds and won't be in Philly because they are both RWers.

 

[Corn Flake]

Fair enough. However, I don't recall if Jagr had line-mates as good as Giroux, JVR, or Briere at the Worlds either though.

Well, he had guys like Plekanec, Frolik, Elias, Michalek and Voracek on the roster with him, so, while his linemates may not have been at exactly the same level as the guys he'll be will in Philly, they certainly weren't far off.

Speaking of Plekanec, the topic of Leaf centers vs. Habs centers came up yesterday...
Grabovski > Plekanec and Gomez
Connolly > Gomez (and possibly Plekanec too)

Anyway, I thought it was a neat thing to think about going forward in to this season.

Interesting way of looking at it.  I think Plekanec is a little better than Grabbo just based on his all-round game. I  wouldn't say he's dramatically better but just a bit more polished.  Grabbo could easily be as good or better if he continues to progress this year.    For sure both Leafs centres are going to be far more productive and useful than Gomez. 

Leafs are similarly built to the Habs up front - not star laden but going for the approach that lots of guys can contribute... except we have Kessel and their former 40 goal man hasn't broken 30 goals since 2005.

Now do the defense!