Phil Kessel

[losveratos]

bah.... whats the point... you wouldn't listen anyways..

 

[nutman]

bah.... whats the point... you wouldn't listen anyways..

I second that...

 

[Kin]

This is true, but to rely on stocking your team with players so bad that you're guaranteed a bottom five finish doesn't seem feasible. I can't imagine a GM actually trying to sell that plan and having their employers feel ok about it generally.

I think that'd be relatively easy provided you had an owner whose priority was to win a championship and who was active and involved enough with the sport to know that building a team through free agency/trades is a road that's significantly harder to navigate.

Also, if we're looking at ways to build a team, Chiarelli didn't go that route in Boston. Thornton was traded for a pile of garbage essentially before he came. They picked well and four of their players (all picked in the second round) panned out.

Well, if we're looking at ways to build a team I'd say there's only so much you can really take from the Bruins, unless you think the club should be looking to solve its goaltending woes by scouting the European leagues for washed out  9th round picks.

 

[slapshot]

It really is way past time to bury the hatchet on the Kessel trade. I says keep Kessel, lock up him in the off-season with an extension. So what Boston got lucky on the way the picks worked out. That being said, I'm not ready to call Tyler Seguin and Dougie Hamilton Hall of Famers, to hear the way people are going on about the deal. Kessel is overall pretty consistent 30-40 goal guy, without a real first line center. Could you imagine what kind of numbers he could put up if he had planned alongside a guy like Mats Sundin.
If the Leafs can't find that center, maybe the solution, is to sign guy like Corey Perry and move Kessel to Centre. He was drafted as a centre, so it's not like he hasn't played the position before. The negatives may (or may not) be face-offs and defensive zone coverage, but I'm starting to respect his work ethic. Kessel is a terrific passer also, something he doesn't get enough credit for and he would have more open ice, and less corner work (which saps a lot of energy). Guys like Sakic, Yzerman, Roenick and many others were 40 goal scorers but still played centre.
I'm just saying it might be an option, no more of an experiment than moving JVR to centre. Not sure how else the get a front line centre to play with Kessel. Teams aren't trading them. Drafting one would still be 2-3 years from NHL ready. Maybe Getzlaf, but they say he's expected to resign. Maybe Kadri at some point, but that would make that line smallish. I wouldn't mind seeing Kessel between Lupul and JVR or Perry, if the Leafs could land him. He is an Ontario boy. I think landing a big free agent forward, would take some of the pressure of Kessel. The Leafs need a really leader up front and Perry would really fit the bill. Having Reimer solid for full season would be huge as well.
Plus the Leafs two biggest pieces on D moving forward (Gardiner and Rielly) aren't even playing with them right now.

 

[Zee]

It really is way past time to bury the hatchet on the Kessel trade. I says keep Kessel, lock up him in the off-season with an extension. So what Boston got lucky on the way the picks worked out. That being said, I'm not ready to call Tyler Seguin and Dougie Hamilton Hall of Famers, to hear the way people are going on about the deal. Kessel is overall pretty consistent 30-40 goal guy, without a real first line center. Could you imagine what kind of numbers he could put up if he had planned alongside a guy like Mats Sundin.
If the Leafs can't find that center, maybe the solution, is to sign guy like Corey Perry and move Kessel to Centre. He was drafted as a centre, so it's not like he hasn't played the position before. The negatives may (or may not) be face-offs and defensive zone coverage, but I'm starting to respect his work ethic. Kessel is a terrific passer also, something he doesn't get enough credit for and he would have more open ice, and less corner work (which saps a lot of energy). Guys like Sakic, Yzerman, Roenick and many others were 40 goal scorers but still played centre.
I'm just saying it might be an option, no more of an experiment than moving JVR to centre. Not sure how else the get a front line centre to play with Kessel. Teams aren't trading them. Drafting one would still be 2-3 years from NHL ready. Maybe Getzlaf, but they say he's expected to resign. Maybe Kadri at some point, but that would make that line smallish. I wouldn't mind seeing Kessel between Lupul and JVR or Perry, if the Leafs could land him. He is an Ontario boy. I think landing a big free agent forward, would take some of the pressure of Kessel. The Leafs need a really leader up front and Perry would really fit the bill. Having Reimer solid for full season would be huge as well.
Plus the Leafs two biggest pieces on D moving forward (Gardiner and Rielly) aren't even playing with them right now.

Nobody is doubting Kessel's talent.  The only thing fans are wondering is whether he intends to stay in Toronto long term.  If the GM determines he wants out after next season, it's in the Leafs best interest to trade him now and get as much as possible for him.  If he indicates he'll stay long term, I have no problem keeping him and building around him.  35-40 goal scorers don't always fall into your lap.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Also, the fact that you guys want to trade a 25 year old sniper in the hopes that you get a draft pick and some prospects in the hopes that said draft pick and said prospects turn out is a tad curious to me.....not nutman curious, but curious none the less.

Go ahead nik, tell me why I'm wrong.

You're right. That does present a conundrum. I suppose to come up with an example that might convince you of the potential wisdom of such a move I'd have to think of a situation where a young, Phil Kessel-type sniper was traded by a team for draft picks and it ended up working out pretty well for them.

So let me put my thinking cap on. Has a talented young sniper, very much like the Maple Leafs' own Phil Kessel, ever been traded for Draft Picks and had it work out well for the team trading him...gosh, that's a tricky one. If only there were a recent and obvious example that hit close to home of a player, who plays like Phil Kessel, that was traded for a bunch of valuable draft picks.

Well, I'm stumped.

That's a great example Nik...But it has a few holes...

One, there is no way a deal similar to the original Kessel deal goes down....Every possible chip fell into place for the B's including the Leafs sucking b@lls.

Two, lightning doesn't strike twice.

 

[louisstamos]

I will say this - it would be poetic justice if Kessel's first goal(s) of the season came against Boston on Saturday.

 

[Champ Kind]

Also, the fact that you guys want to trade a 25 year old sniper in the hopes that you get a draft pick and some prospects in the hopes that said draft pick and said prospects turn out is a tad curious to me.....not nutman curious, but curious none the less.

Go ahead nik, tell me why I'm wrong.

You're right. That does present a conundrum. I suppose to come up with an example that might convince you of the potential wisdom of such a move I'd have to think of a situation where a young, Phil Kessel-type sniper was traded by a team for draft picks and it ended up working out pretty well for them.

So let me put my thinking cap on. Has a talented young sniper, very much like the Maple Leafs' own Phil Kessel, ever been traded for Draft Picks and had it work out well for the team trading him...gosh, that's a tricky one. If only there were a recent and obvious example that hit close to home of a player, who plays like Phil Kessel, that was traded for a bunch of valuable draft picks.

Well, I'm stumped.

That's a great example Nik...But it has a few holes...

One, there is no way a deal similar to the original Kessel deal goes down....Every possible chip fell into place for the B's including the Leafs sucking b@lls.

Two, lightning doesn't strike twice.

I have to stop you there.  I'm not sure that it was as arbitrary as lightning striking that the Leafs -ahem - 'sucked b@lls' in 2009-2010.  ANd I'd also argue that there are plenty of examples beyond Kessel where a talented sniper has been traded for picks / young players and things ultimately worked out in the trading team's favour.  Come to think of it, I think the Philly -Columbus deal worked out pretty well for Philadelphia.  And, come to think of it again, it actually ended up working out decently for Columbus as well.

 

[Boston Leaf]

I will say this - it would be poetic justice if Kessel's first goal(s) of the season came against Boston on Saturday.

for the game winner of course

 

[Kin]

That's a great example Nik...But it has a few holes...

One, there is no way a deal similar to the original Kessel deal goes down....Every possible chip fell into place for the B's including the Leafs sucking b@lls.

Two, lightning doesn't strike twice.

I think you're underestimating what good players get back in terms of trades on a fairly regular basis. Look at how well Philly did in dealing Carter/Richards. Or Pittsburgh with Jordan Staal. Heck, look at how well the Leafs did dealing Kaberle.

Realistically, trading Kessel for a package that adds significant value to the club going forwards isn't nearly as hard to believe as you make it seem. And, if you please, a little respect for other peoples' religion. I'm pretty sure Zeus can make lightning strike wherever he wants.

 

[Erndog]

Heck, look at how well the Leafs did dealing Kaberle.

Exactly how well did we do with that trade?



Edit:  A better trade is Ken Klee for Suglobov... uh nevermind.  Or maybe Ponikarovsky for Luca Caputi.  No wait.  Or Antropov for the almighty 2nd round pick who turned out to be .... um.... who did it turn out to be again?  Kubina for Exelllbeee was it?  XLB?  Exelby? 

Yeah, I really like our track record when trading some proven talent for young players/picks/prospects.

 

[Kin]

Exactly how well did we do with that trade?

I'd say pretty well. Obviously the post hoc analysis has yet to be done but I think a good prospect and a 1st was a pretty good return for a guy the Leafs were moving away from.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

That's a great example Nik...But it has a few holes...

One, there is no way a deal similar to the original Kessel deal goes down....Every possible chip fell into place for the B's including the Leafs sucking b@lls.

Two, lightning doesn't strike twice.

I think you're underestimating what good players get back in terms of trades on a fairly regular basis. Look at how well Philly did in dealing Carter/Richards. Or Pittsburgh with Jordan Staal. Heck, look at how well the Leafs did dealing Kaberle.

Realistically, trading Kessel for a package that adds significant value to the club going forwards isn't nearly as hard to believe as you make it seem. And, if you please, a little respect for other peoples' religion. I'm pretty sure Zeus can make lightning strike wherever he wants.

Heh...

I just don't think that Kessel pulls the same return as Carter or Richards and I also think that Grabovski or Phaneuf pull similar or better than what Kessel could...Again, just my opinion.

Now, I will fully agree that if Nonis feels Kessel won't sign back on, well, you move him...But to do it now? I don't get the reasoning.

As for the Kaberle deal...well the jury is still out on that one. We'll see what happens down the road.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Can we trade Kessel for Zeus and a 1st?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Heck, look at how well the Leafs did dealing Kaberle.

Exactly how well did we do with that trade?



Edit:  A better trade is Ken Klee for Suglobov... uh nevermind.  Or maybe Ponikarovsky for Luca Caputi.  No wait.  Or Antropov for the almighty 2nd round pick who turned out to be .... um.... who did it turn out to be again?  Kubina for Exelllbeee was it?  XLB?  Exelby? 

Yeah, I really like our track record when trading some proven talent for young players/picks/prospects.

Beauchemin for Lupul/Gardiner? With Gardiner being the young player, of course.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I like on Sportscentre they're talking about trade talk and Phil Kessel, and Dreger says "it's media generated but with good cause."

:

 

[TML fan]

Remember, the goal was to build a sustainable winner, not a flash in the pan. Perhaps the Leafs knew they couldn't do that until they had a constant stream of well developed young players coming through the system?

I'd say that your hypothetical plan doesn't make a lot of sense. In as much it would have a team that has developed a system that has a constant stream of well developed players having come through it for years but was also at some point bad enough for a sustained period of time to add the sort of elite high level talent through the draft that can then be used as the backbone for a championship club.

"Building while being competitive" is essentially the same thing we've heard since before even the JFJ era started and though it's something that's gone under a few PR shake-ups since all we've really seen is the unending accumulation of proof that it doesn't really work, regardless of how well-regarded a GM you have.

So it's not just a plan the Leafs need but a good plan.

This is true, but to rely on stocking your team with players so bad that you're guaranteed a bottom five finish doesn't seem feasible. I can't imagine a GM actually trying to sell that plan and having their employers feel ok about it generally. Also, if we're looking at ways to build a team, Chiarelli didn't go that route in Boston. Thornton was traded for a pile of garbage essentially before he came. They picked well and four of their players (all picked in the second round) panned out.

Not to mention their huge free agent signings.

 

[bustaheims]

I just don't think that Kessel pulls the same return as Carter or Richards and I also think that Grabovski or Phaneuf pull similar or better than what Kessel could...Again, just my opinion.

Well, if Kessel going, odds are the other two would be as well. Trading Kessel would basically signal the beginning of a full blown, bare bones rebuild. No point in keeping Grabovski or Phaneuf around for that either - they'd be more valuable as tradeable assets than as players in that scenario.

 

[Deebo]

Not to mention their huge free agent signings.

Chara might be the best UFA signing ever.

 

[Kin]

Edit:  A better trade is Ken Klee for Suglobov... uh nevermind.  Or maybe Ponikarovsky for Luca Caputi.  No wait.  Or Antropov for the almighty 2nd round pick who turned out to be .... um.... who did it turn out to be again?  Kubina for Exelllbeee was it?  XLB?  Exelby? 

Yeah, I really like our track record when trading some proven talent for young players/picks/prospects.

Leaving aside that "our" track record encompasses multiple deals and multiple GM's that are no longer with the club, you're also talking about the trading of a bunch of relatively minor players who got relatively minor returns. I mean, the Leafs didn't get much for Fred Modin either but I'm straining to find the relevance there to trading Kessel.