Pre-Season: Sabres @ Leafs - Sept. 22, 7:00pm - LeafsTV, TSN 1050

[ZBBM]

Too much, IMO.  Hence Grabovski.

That strikes me as an essentially circular argument. If Carlyle's position dictates whether or not Grabo is on the team than the responsibility is still ultimately Nonis' for being the one who decides who the coach is.

Well, this is just it.  In my conception, at least, the GM is the GM: he decides on the team, and then hands it over to the coach to make the on-ice decisions.  If Nonis is ceding roster decisions to Carlyle, then he's ceding most of his power.

 

[Kin]

Well, this just it.  In my conception, at least, the GM is the GM: he decides on the team, and then hands it over to the coach to make the on-ice decisions.  If Nonis is ceding roster decisions to Carlyle, then he's ceding most of his power.

But that's why I think it's not fundamentally true. I don't think Carlyle made the decision to buy-out Grabo, I think Carlyle made the decision that Grabo didn't fit on his top two lines which made the Grabo buy-out a smart decision because Grabo was overpriced and ill-suited to the role he had in Carlyle's line-up. The coach gets to make the line-up decisions(within reason) but he doesn't make roster decisions(except where the two intersect, like who the 13th forward is).

 

[ZBBM]

Well, this just it.  In my conception, at least, the GM is the GM: he decides on the team, and then hands it over to the coach to make the on-ice decisions.  If Nonis is ceding roster decisions to Carlyle, then he's ceding most of his power.

But that's why I think it's not fundamentally true. I don't think Carlyle made the decision to buy-out Grabo, I think Carlyle made the decision that Grabo didn't fit on his top two lines which made the Grabo buy-out a smart decision because Grabo was overpriced and ill-suited to the role he had in Carlyle's line-up. The coach gets to make the line-up decisions(within reason) but he doesn't make roster decisions(except where the two intersect, like who the 13th forward is).

I guess we'll never know, but the idea that Grabbo doesn't fit the top two lines is almost patently ridiculous when you compare him statistically with the guy they did re-up (and I actually rather like Bozak), so my conclusion is that Carlyle drove that decision.  To repeat my original point, I think Nonis should have denied him on that.

 

[Kin]

I guess we'll never know, but the idea that Grabbo doesn't fit the top two lines is almost patently ridiculous when you compare him statistically with the guy they did re-up (and I actually rather like Bozak), so my conclusion is that Carlyle drove that decision.  To repeat my original point, I think Nonis should have denied him on that.

I've gone down the Bozak vs. Grabo rabbit hole enough this year to not want to do it again so I'll respond with two things on that point. One, what you get from a Grabo and Bozak comparison comes down to what stats you use and two, regardless of that, now you're overlapping on a coach's responsibility. I don't want a GM to tell a coach how to put together the lines any more than I want a coach deciding what free agents to sign. There should be collaboration, obviously, and you want a coach and GM to share a vision for a club but if Carlyle decided that Grabo was a 3rd line centre then Nonis had to deal with that reality either by doing what he did or by firing Carlyle. Having Nonis start to make line-up decisions is not the answer.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

It blows my mind that people here would suggest that a player like Devane trying to make a career under a coach like Carlyle, who really likes tough hockey, should turn down an offer to fight because he is tougher than challenger???  WTF are you guys thinking??  The kid would never see the ice again under this coach.  He did exactly what he should have done in this situation.

Or, you know, that just highlights the larger issue many of us have with Randy Carlyle as the coach of this team. What happened tonight with Devane and everything his decision ended up leading to is really just a symptom of Carlyle's poor philosophy when it comes to putting together an NHL roster.

+1000

Randy Carlyle's coaching record:

Games: 582
Wins: 305
Winning Percentage: .583

I suppose you can say you don't agree with his approach, or that you believe emphasizing toughness over skill wrong, but saying he has a "poor philisophy" undermines the success he's had coaching in the NHL.

Bingo.

It's funny how a coach with a winning record is seen as some idiot who can't put a NHL roster together. People need to give their heads a shake.

Is anyone saying that?  As far as I can tell, the criticism of his roster decision stems from the belief that he is putting out a roster that is less-skilled for the sake of having players whose sole purpose is as enforcers.  Perhaps his career record is worse than it could potentially have been with the players his past and current GM's have provided him with.

Umm yes, people are saying that. Read the quotes above mine

Or, you know, that just highlights the larger issue many of us have with Randy Carlyle as the coach of this team. What happened tonight with Devane and everything his decision ended up leading to is really just a symptom of Carlyle's poor philosophy when it comes to putting together an NHL roster.

So yes, people are questioning his ability to put an NHL line up together.

I have no issue with people questioning a coach and their decisions. I haven't agreed with all Carlyle's decisions either.

But when it comes to him having Devane on the ice in a preseason game...when it comes to Devane getting challenged to a fight...when it comes to Carlyle assuming that Buffalo wasn't a bunch of idiots that would send out a 6'8 gorilla after the Leaf's top player...I don't see how anyone can question his roster decisions in this situation...

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Is anyone saying that?  As far as I can tell, the criticism of his roster decision stems from the belief that he is putting out a roster that is less-skilled for the sake of having players whose sole purpose is as enforcers.  Perhaps his career record is worse than it could potentially have been with the players his past and current GM's have provided him with.

Seriously. And you know, who even cares what his coaching record was with Anaheim? We're supposed to have short memories when it comes to players like Grabovski but we can't forget that Carlyle had a 0.671 winning percentage 7 years ago?

Obviously, his record with the Leafs is pretty good too, but all he's done is put up half of a winning season with us. If he continues that, great. If not, well then that half of a winning season will deserve all the criticism it gets. But anything that he's done prior to that is moot here really.

If we can't give Carlyle a passing a grade for the half a good season, how can everyone give him a failing grade for the half a good season?

Like I said, I have no issues with people calling him on legitimate errors in judgement. And actually, I have no issue with him being called out for even putting Kessel out in that situation(though how was he to expect an assinine response from Buffalo)...But to place blame on him for anything that happened lastnight is done in haste IMO.

 

[mr grieves]

I guess we'll never know, but the idea that Grabbo doesn't fit the top two lines is almost patently ridiculous when you compare him statistically with the guy they did re-up (and I actually rather like Bozak), so my conclusion is that Carlyle drove that decision.  To repeat my original point, I think Nonis should have denied him on that.

I've gone down the Bozak vs. Grabo rabbit hole enough this year to not want to do it again so I'll respond with two things on that point. One, what you get from a Grabo and Bozak comparison comes down to what stats you use and two, regardless of that, now you're overlapping on a coach's responsibility. I don't want a GM to tell a coach how to put together the lines any more than I want a coach deciding what free agents to sign. There should be collaboration, obviously, and you want a coach and GM to share a vision for a club but if Carlyle decided that Grabo was a 3rd line centre then Nonis had to deal with that reality either by doing what he did or by firing Carlyle. Having Nonis start to make line-up decisions is not the answer.

The third option was just to assemble the best group of centers possible -- Kadri, Grabovski, Bolland, McClement -- and let Randy make all the lineup decisions he'd like within the new reality you've given him. It's not ordering you coach to assemble the lines you want if you use your proper domain to make his decision for him. And, of course, you can repeat that it's possible that both Carlyle and Nonis agree that Grabo was a 3rd line center (in which case the criticism of Nonis cuts a different way) or that Grabo is, in fact, your third best center behind Bozak and Kadri (in which case we disagree about the players).

Yeah. This has all been gone over -- and over -- before. The only thing that'll settle any of this is seeing what sort of season everyone has. The only new information we've got is... well, Grabo's still the best quote of the bunch:

Chuck Gormley ‏@ChuckGormleyCSN 6h
#CapitalsTalk Mikhail Grabovski on Phil Kessel's stick chops: 'How do you say in English? Like a musketeer. Swish! Swish! Swish!'

Chuck Gormley ‏@ChuckGormleyCSN 6h
#CapitalsTalk More from Mikhail Grabovski on Phil Kessel: 'Where was Orrby? Where was Colton Orr to protect him?'

Chuck Gormley ‏@ChuckGormleyCSN 6h
#CapitalsTalk One more Mikhail Grabovski quote from Maple Leafs brawl: 'I don't care anymore about that team.Who cares? My team is here.'

 

[Kin]

The third option was just to assemble the best group of centers possible -- Kadri, Grabovski, Bolland, McClement -- and let Randy make all the lineup decisions he'd like within the new reality you've given him. It's not ordering you coach to assemble the lines you want if you use your proper domain to make his decision for him. And, of course, you can repeat that it's possible that both Carlyle and Nonis agree that Grabo was a 3rd line center (in which case the criticism of Nonis cuts a different way) or that Grabo is, in fact, your third best center behind Bozak and Kadri (in which case we disagree about the players).

But neither of those have ever been my point. My point has always been that if you do as you suggest and give Carlyle that group of centres to work with but leave his decision making intact then realistically Grabo remains your third line centre, a position he's both poorly suited and drastically overpaid for which leaves Nonis with basically the same decision to make.

(It also probably means you have to buy-out Liles and cave on Franson which raises its own set of issues but that's neither here nor there)

If Nonis disagreed with Carlyle about where Grabo should be in the line-up or at least if he did to the point where he thought it was as important as, say, you do then the way to deal with it was firing Carlyle, not forcing Carlyle to keep using Grabo in a role he wasn't cut out for. Now, I know you would say that was the way to go but I'm not going to get into that again. What I'm saying here is that it's not fair to assume that just because Nonis didn't want to start making lineup decisions that Carlyle therefore must be making the roster decisions.

 

[L K]

Scott blaming Carlyle:

"I'd be pissed off if someone went after my star guy too. It's one of those things their coach didn't have to put Kessel out with me."

Sure, pal, once Kessel came over the boards you HAD to jump him because ... because ... because you are a moronic goon.

Yeah, quite frankly I'm not sure how you suspend a guy for that, but you should.  I didn't realize that his fighting was a compulsion and not something that he was capable of doing rationally.  I didn't realize that he was obligated to fight the first guy that he saw.  Maybe next time I'll try that when I walk down the street.  Punch the first person I see and then blame them for getting in my way.  Oh wait, that's not how life works.

 

[Hampreacher]

The arguement can be made that Scott should get 10 games as well because He came off the bench to enter into a fight. The referee had not dropped the puck to resume play. Scott basically came off the bench slid in beside Kessel and dropped his gloves. That was the sole intent. Play had not started and he was not provoked by Kessel. Under the rule that Clarkson was suspended and its wording. It applys to Scott as well. Read the rule closely!

 

[13th fan]

I agree that the reaction from Scott and the Sabres was excessive. I'm just saying it was something that really could have been pretty easily avoided. Carlyle shares a good chunk of the blame here, too. I know he says he wanted to diffuse the situation, but, seeing that Rolston sent Scott out, he could have very easily sent out guys like JvR and Colborne along with Ashton (who he did put out) and accomplished the same thing, while having some bigger bodies out there, as well.

It's not that it's excessive so much as it is misplaced. Whatever one might want to say about the "code" it's never been along the lines of "You take a run at Gretzky, we take a run at Lemieux" but, rather, "You take a run at Gretzky, someone takes a run at you". Now, that's its own kind of stupid and we saw the ridiculous consequences of it with the Moore/Bertuzzi thing but there's, at the very least, something...I don't want to say noble but justifiable there. So if Scott had gone after Devane, sure. But going after Kessel isn't a natural result of what Devane did and he shouldn't be held accountable for it. He might have been the catalyst but he wasn't the cause. What Devane did was wrong, but it was a speeding ticket. What Clarkson did was wrong but ultimately I think it shows that no rule should have automatic penalties as situations differ. Scott(and maybe Rolston) are the villains here. Nothing justifies what they did, that's the nonsense that needs to leave the game and idiots like that will always invent justifications for their own existence.

And while I agree with you in general re: Carlyle I don't know that I'd feel much better about it if Scott went after JVR and the same thing resulted.

And the irony in all of this will be that Devane, Scott and most likely Rolston will get zero punishment, while Clarkson will get 10 and Kessel may get a game or two. What message is the league trying to send again?

If this had been Orr or Mclaren going after Crosby this would be a bigger story.

Also Busta, if bigger guys had turned down every small combatant in the history of the NHL then there would have been a good few careers that never happened (Domi, Tucker to name just a couple leafs). If you go at a guy (I mean really go at a guy) then you should be open to the possibility that you'll get clocked. Ever wonder why Phaneuf hasn't dropped a glove and thrown a punch at Chara?

The kid made a mistake and will have to learn from it. He made his own foolish decision and suffered the consequences (he's fought enough in career so far to have known better). As Nik said, the "code" thing to do, would've been to let Scott sort out Devane. What they did was bush league and has no place in the game.

Remember when McCabe got thrown around by Chara?

You mean rag dolled by Chara...lol , I was thinking about that today too.

 

[mr grieves]

The third option was just to assemble the best group of centers possible -- Kadri, Grabovski, Bolland, McClement -- and let Randy make all the lineup decisions he'd like within the new reality you've given him. It's not ordering you coach to assemble the lines you want if you use your proper domain to make his decision for him. And, of course, you can repeat that it's possible that both Carlyle and Nonis agree that Grabo was a 3rd line center (in which case the criticism of Nonis cuts a different way) or that Grabo is, in fact, your third best center behind Bozak and Kadri (in which case we disagree about the players).

But neither of those have ever been my point. My point has always been that if you do as you suggest and give Carlyle that group of centres to work with but leave his decision making intact then realistically Grabo remains your third line centre, a position he's both poorly suited and drastically overpaid for which leaves Nonis with basically the same decision to make.

As you know, I don't like Carlyle much. But I think he's bizarrely attached to Bozak more than he had it out for Grabo. I don't think he'd try to play Bolland on the first line for any length of time.

What I'm saying here is that it's not fair to assume that just because Nonis didn't want to start making lineup decisions that Carlyle therefore must be making the roster decisions.

No, buying out Grabo isn't evidence of that. Agreed. But Nonis followed every off-season trade or signing with "I can tell you our coach is very happy" and concluded the majority of the off-season moves with "I've given our coach the team he wants" -- statements like that, and the premiums paid for "Randy Carlyle players," make me a bit uncomfortable. They suggest to me that Nonis is outsourcing too much of what management should do to a coaching staff that very well might not be here when those contracts are up.

 

[Kin]

As you know, I don't like Carlyle much. But I think he's bizarrely attached to Bozak more than he had it out for Grabo. I don't think he'd try to play Bolland on the first line for any length of time.

That doesn't seem to add up. You say that the best group of centres available is one that includes Bolland but not Bozak, indicating that you think that Bolland is a superior player, but dismiss out of hand the idea that Carlyle would like Bolland as much as you think he (irrationally) liked Bozak.

I think the best group of centres that the Leafs had available to them, strangely enough, is the one they had when the season ended. I think Bozak is a better player than Bolland, he's younger, bigger, better on the draw, has scored at a better clip for the course of his career, is better defensively and so on. The reason Bolland is on the team is because he's a cost effective version of what Grabo(or in your ideal world, Bozak) would have been under Carlyle, a 2nd/3rd line centre who can score. Neither Bozak or Grabo were going to be that so, realistically, Nonis had to choose one or the other. Where did you stand on that decision again?

Regardless, I think that a lot of these moves were made with the idea that the question of which of Grabo, Bozak or Bolland is best suited for the first line job is moot. I think this team is being built on the idea that Kadri will take that job soon.

No, buying out Grabo isn't evidence of that. Agreed. But Nonis followed every off-season trade or signing with "I can tell you our coach is very happy" and concluded the majority of the off-season moves with "I've given our coach the team he wants" -- statements like that, and the premiums paid for "Randy Carlyle players," make me a bit uncomfortable. They suggest to me that Nonis is outsourcing too much of what management should do to a coaching staff that very well might not be here when those contracts are up.

Well, we've gone over the idea that a "Randy Carlyle player" doesn't really seem to indicate anything as he's found room in the past to accommodate all sorts of players, regardless I'm not inclined to read too much into those comments by Nonis as A) as I said, it's still ultimately on Nonis because he's making the decision to keep Carlyle around and B) Ultimately you want your coach and GM on the same page and C) it would be ridiculous to expect him to come out of a press conference saying that Carlyle didn't want a newly acquired player but he pulled rank.

 

[93forever]

I did enjoy watching Miller use his face to hit Bernier's fist but it will be a major bummer if Kessel is suspended for any length of time.  Clarkson does deserve 10, but Scott and Rolston deserve suspensions and should be suspended if Kessel is.

 

[hockeyfan1]

Chuck Gormley ‏@ChuckGormleyCSN 6h
#CapitalsTalk One more Mikhail Grabovski quote from Maple Leafs brawl: 'I don't care anymore about that team.Who cares? My team is here.'

Grabovski will be very 'motivated' come Leafs vs Capitals.  Expect him to put on a show and be one of the "Three Stars" selections.

 

[Bender]

I agree that the reaction from Scott and the Sabres was excessive. I'm just saying it was something that really could have been pretty easily avoided. Carlyle shares a good chunk of the blame here, too. I know he says he wanted to diffuse the situation, but, seeing that Rolston sent Scott out, he could have very easily sent out guys like JvR and Colborne along with Ashton (who he did put out) and accomplished the same thing, while having some bigger bodies out there, as well.

It's not that it's excessive so much as it is misplaced. Whatever one might want to say about the "code" it's never been along the lines of "You take a run at Gretzky, we take a run at Lemieux" but, rather, "You take a run at Gretzky, someone takes a run at you". Now, that's its own kind of stupid and we saw the ridiculous consequences of it with the Moore/Bertuzzi thing but there's, at the very least, something...I don't want to say noble but justifiable there. So if Scott had gone after Devane, sure. But going after Kessel isn't a natural result of what Devane did and he shouldn't be held accountable for it. He might have been the catalyst but he wasn't the cause. What Devane did was wrong, but it was a speeding ticket. What Clarkson did was wrong but ultimately I think it shows that no rule should have automatic penalties as situations differ. Scott(and maybe Rolston) are the villains here. Nothing justifies what they did, that's the nonsense that needs to leave the game and idiots like that will always invent justifications for their own existence.

And while I agree with you in general re: Carlyle I don't know that I'd feel much better about it if Scott went after JVR and the same thing resulted.

And the irony in all of this will be that Devane, Scott and most likely Rolston will get zero punishment, while Clarkson will get 10 and Kessel may get a game or two. What message is the league trying to send again?

If this had been Orr or Mclaren going after Crosby this would be a bigger story.

Also Busta, if bigger guys had turned down every small combatant in the history of the NHL then there would have been a good few careers that never happened (Domi, Tucker to name just a couple leafs). If you go at a guy (I mean really go at a guy) then you should be open to the possibility that you'll get clocked. Ever wonder why Phaneuf hasn't dropped a glove and thrown a punch at Chara?

The kid made a mistake and will have to learn from it. He made his own foolish decision and suffered the consequences (he's fought enough in career so far to have known better). As Nik said, the "code" thing to do, would've been to let Scott sort out Devane. What they did was bush league and has no place in the game.

Remember when McCabe got thrown around by Chara?

You mean rag dolled by Chara...lol , I was thinking about that today too.

 

[Deebo]

Sens fans love that incident.

I remember the Leafs winning that game 5-1, Chara hurting himself on the play, and missing two games including another loss versus the Leafs.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

May already be here, but this is how Scott defends fighting Kessel:

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/john-scott-explains-why-attacked-poor-nearly-defenseless-202830725--nhl.html

According to Scott, speaking with the media on Monday (via Buffalo News), he was following The Code, that time-honored and completely nebulous set of standards that dictates who gets punched and when.

Scott believes that Corey Tropp, his Sabres teammate, wasn?t in a fair fight with Jamie Devane of the Maple Leafs in the third period of their Sunday exhibition game. Scott was on the ice when the scrap went down. He apparently didn?t notice Tropp ask for the fight (he did). All he saw was Devane, with a height advantage by at least five inches, pummel Tropp, including a punch that landed as Tropp was falling to the ice, hitting his head.

?The last punch and driving his head into the ice, I don?t think that was needed,? said Scott.

So he stayed on the ice after Tropp went off and Devane went to the penalty box, looking for some measure of retribution. "I would have went after who ever they put lined up next to me,? said Scott.

Maple Leafs Coach Randy Carlyle didn?t have an appetite for further violence. Rather than sending someone out to be pummeled by Scott, he sent Kessel, the team?s best offensive player, out instead to ?defuse? the situation.

It?s the hockey version of ?you wouldn?t hit a guy with glasses, would ya?? The theory is that goons won?t go after star players. That?s how Carlyle read the Code. Scott had a different reading.

?I can understand his idea behind it. I obviously thought our guy got taken advantage of the shift before. I was trying to stick up for him, and send a message to Toronto,? said Scott.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I hope when we play Buffalo next Carlyle dresses Orr, McLaren, Broll, Bodie, Biggs, Devane, Fraser, and MacWilliam. Absolute mayhem ensues. They all get suspended (including Carlyle), we cheer like a bunch of idiots, fighting gets banned as a result, and then we go back to watching hockey like nothing happened.

 

[Scot4bz]

We now need to look for a goon goalie also....