Randy Carlyle/Leaf Coach thread

[GhostofPotvin29]

Surly there has to be more people available than Laviolette and Maurice.

Just do what Philly did and pull someone out that nobody expects.  Enough of the recycled coaches, let's get some new blood going.

It's tough to hire a new coach mid-season. Most guys you would want to talk to are coaching somewhere else, whether it be as an assistant in the NHL or head coach in the AHL or juniors. And it's pretty rare for an organization to allow an asset like that to leave mid-season.

So if Laviolette isn't the way to go, the Leafs would likely just promote from within on an intern basis. I'd be fine with Scott Gordon being the coach to finish the season. When he was brought on with Wilson I remember reading a bunch of articles about his time with the Islanders and before that. It sounded promising. He's another guy who promotes a more up-tempo offensive style.

I'd be fine with an "interim coach" and if he amazingly turns things around you can consider giving him the full time job.  Otherwise you hire someone in the off season.  Preferably not a re-tread.  Someone that's highly regarded, maybe an AHL coach or a current NHL assistant who looks ready to coach.  Also preferably someone younger who might be able to relate to the team more.

It's too bad he's only in his first full OHL season, because I think pretty soon Sheldon Keefe's name is going to start popping up at the next level for coaching positions.  He's a huge believer in aggressive puck pursuit and puck possession, stresses that type of game, and he's quite frankly done wonders for a Soo Greyhounds franchise that was spinning it's wheels for years.  Completely changed the identity, work ethic and play of the team, and it was almost overnight.  Now the GM and coach are on the same page, they're bringing in guys who can play that type of system and the team is doing very well.

But he's a few years off at least from moving up.  Someone like that though, I'd love to see behind the bench for the Leafs.

 

[princedpw]

From 'How to win friends and influence people'

Fundamental Techniques in Handling People

• Don't criticize, condemn, or complain.
• Give honest and sincere appreciation.
• Arouse in the other person an eager want.

The last point might work well on my gay hockey team, but I'm not entirely sure it would go over well with all of the Leaf players.

 

[nutman]

Again I will say it.......Sutter. now this is a coach I think would do the trick.

 

[Hampreacher]

What about Brent Sutter I don't think he got a good chance in New Jersey. With the Red Deer rebels if you did not put out you were shipped out. Carlyles defense system does not work not with current roster. He refuses to coach according to the talent he has. A good coach needs to coach according to the roster he has been given. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense.Leafs play like they are afraid to make a mistake, especially in their own zone.

 

[LuncheonMeat]

The musical question never gets answered  "Who is going to replace Porky Carlyle"?  Not Peter Violette please.

I admit, I don't have much of a read on Laviolette.  Anyone care to weigh in?

I wonder what Ron Wilson is doing these days. (j/k)

I really think/hope Nonis holds off until the season is over so he can take inventory of who is really available.  Please, please, please Dave, take your time and get it right once you know what's left of your roster at the end of the season.

EDIT:  Maybe Eakins will be available in the off-season...  :-\

 

[mr grieves]

The musical question never gets answered  "Who is going to replace Porky Carlyle"?  Not Peter Violette please.

I admit, I don't have much of a read on Laviolette.  Anyone care to weigh in?

I wonder what Ron Wilson is doing these days. (j/k)

I really think/hope Nonis holds off until the season is over so he can take inventory of who is really available.  Please, please, please Dave, take your time and get it right once you know what's left of your roster at the end of the season.

EDIT:  Maybe Eakins will be available in the off-season...  :-\

For the permanent replacement, sure. But I'd go with an interim as soon as possible. Carlyle hasn't accomplished much more than middling results and poor play this season. Now that the results are heading south and he's not adjusting the roster or system to improve the play, I wonder whether he's eroding their confidence, hindering development, and tarnishing the team's reputation around the league (the comments from Islanders and Hurricanes don't look good). 30 games of running around panicked as mediocre offenses pick apart their defense and shell their goalies can't be good for next season.

 

[L K]

Don't blame the coach.  Last year it was Grabovski's fault entirely for not being a 50 point player.  Last year it was all MacArthur's fault that he wasn't a better option for the lineup than Frazer McLaren for Game 1 of the playoffs. 

This year it's entirely Kadri's fault that he isn't playing well.  It's entirely Gardiner's fault that he hasn't advanced his offensive game.  It's Rielly's fault that he makes rookie mistakes and can't cover for bad defense partners. 

It's Reimer's fault for not having a .950 SV%.

When the entire roster is having long stretches of poor play that seems to be highly suspect of it being a systemic problem rather than an individual problem.  To claim that there are 20 individuals at fault seems to me to be an odd rationale to make that the source of a solution.  You could trade a Gardiner/Kadri for a similar young player and hope that it is a net improvement (or it ends up being a Stempniak for Steen type thing) but it still leaves you with three lines at least that have as many problems.

OR, you could change the coach and change the style of play for the rest of the year (even with an interim coach).  If things improve, maybe there is something to build off.  If not, you know for certain that this team needs to be torn down and reconstructed.  I'm not sure that watching the team flounder for the rest of the year pushes the team in any one direction necessarily.

 

[mr grieves]

Don't blame the coach.  Last year it was Grabovski's fault entirely for not being a 50 point player.  Last year it was all MacArthur's fault that he wasn't a better option for the lineup than Frazer McLaren for Game 1 of the playoffs. 

This year it's entirely Kadri's fault that he isn't playing well.  It's entirely Gardiner's fault that he hasn't advanced his offensive game.  It's Rielly's fault that he makes rookie mistakes and can't cover for bad defense partners. 

It's Reimer's fault for not having a .950 SV%.

When the entire roster is having long stretches of poor play that seems to be highly suspect of it being a systemic problem rather than an individual problem.  To claim that there are 20 individuals at fault seems to me to be an odd rationale.

You know, even with the guy out costs against the cap, Nonis could buyout the whole team and put together a squad of 23 McClements and Frasers.

 

[MetalRaven]

Jonas Siegel ‏@jonasTSN1050 2h

Carlyle: "We?ve been begging, pleading, kicking, kissing, whatever we can do to try and find a way that we can play with some confidence."

Kissing? And that HASNT inspired confidence? Well I mean, seriously, there may be no way of reaching these people...

 

[Sudafederov]

I think we all know what the problem is. 

Obviously it's Miley Cyrus being played in the dressing room.

Sorry boys, but it's only Norwegian Death Metal from now on.

 

[Tigger]

Don't blame the coach.  Last year it was Grabovski's fault entirely for not being a 50 point player.  Last year it was all MacArthur's fault that he wasn't a better option for the lineup than Frazer McLaren for Game 1 of the playoffs. 

This year it's entirely Kadri's fault that he isn't playing well.  It's entirely Gardiner's fault that he hasn't advanced his offensive game.  It's Rielly's fault that he makes rookie mistakes and can't cover for bad defense partners. 

It's Reimer's fault for not having a .950 SV%.

When the entire roster is having long stretches of poor play that seems to be highly suspect of it being a systemic problem rather than an individual problem.  To claim that there are 20 individuals at fault seems to me to be an odd rationale to make that the source of a solution.  You could trade a Gardiner/Kadri for a similar young player and hope that it is a net improvement (or it ends up being a Stempniak for Steen type thing) but it still leaves you with three lines at least that have as many problems.

OR, you could change the coach and change the style of play for the rest of the year (even with an interim coach).  If things improve, maybe there is something to build off.  If not, you know for certain that this team needs to be torn down and reconstructed.  I'm not sure that watching the team flounder for the rest of the year pushes the team in any one direction necessarily.

The Muskoka 6 v 2.1 refuse to hear you...

 

[hockeyfan1]

"Smaller, offence-first defencemen like Gardiner and John-Michael Liles have been benched in favour of underperforming big men like Mark Fraser and Paul Ranger, despite the fact the blueline?s play with the puck has been a huge contributor to their possession woes.

Enforcers are dressed every night, but their line almost never sees the ice, with Colton Orr?s 33 seconds of ice time 
Thursday?s first period evidence of a trend that only puts
more pressure on the other units.

And useful player after useful player has been ostracized,
pushed out or limited under Carlyle?s watch, with former Leafs
like Mikhail Grabovski and Clarke MacArthur speaking publicly against the coach?s methods and current players like
Gardiner and Nazem Kadri now being spun through the trade
rumour mill due to their incompatibility with the system."



http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/should-the-maple-leafs-fire-coach-randy-carlyle/

 

[Highlander]

Actually a very good article by Cox about RC and why he won't be fired and what he needs to do.  A nice perspective actually and with the effort last night we can take some solace in the fact that the boys can actually play some good hockey:
http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/2014/01/10/maple_leafs_need_new_tactics_not_a_new_head_coach_cox.html

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Actually a very good article by Cox about RC and why he won't be fired and what he needs to do.  A nice perspective actually and with the effort last night we can take some solace in the fact that the boys can actually play some good hockey:
http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/2014/01/10/maple_leafs_need_new_tactics_not_a_new_head_coach_cox.html

Basically says that the Leafs shouldn't fire Carlyle, but either the players need to figure out Carlyle's system after 100+ games or Carlyle needs to change everything that he's doing.

 

[Highlander]

sounds about right, the real thing that we do not know is if Randy has lost the room.. I really don't think that is the case outside of my utter frustration with this team.  They can turn in some fine efforts, last night, Winter Classic, Chicago.  Perhaps when Bolland comes back things may turn around or if RC lets go of the "Swarm Defense" and go to the classic Western D. 
The really frustrating thing is we have the scoring firepower and we are not scoring..Bye the way. Holland scored early for us in the Marlies game down east and was the #1 star. Why is he not the 2nd line Centre at this point and Kadri on line 3?  This is what pisses me off more than anything.  And McClement on line 4 with D'Amigo and Ashton getting at least 10 a night. Oh and sitting Gardiner.
Like everyone its getting exasperating

 

[bustaheims]

Basically says that the Leafs shouldn't fire Carlyle, but either the players need to figure out Carlyle's system after 100+ games or Carlyle needs to change everything that he's doing.

Either 20 guys have to change or one guy - who hasn't shown much adaptability in her NHL coaching career - needs to change, but, even if he doesn't, he shouldn't be fired. Yeah, sounds like some solid Coxian logic.

 

[bustaheims]

The really frustrating thing is we have the scoring firepower and we are not scoring..

It's frustrating, but, when you look at how the lineup is being used and how the team is playing, it's quite obvious why.

Right now, the Leafs have 4 guys who are scoring goals - Bozak, Kessel, Lupul and JvR. They account for 12 of the team's 23 goals in the past 10 games. Of the remaining 11 goals, 2 were scored by players no longer on the roster (Holland and Bodie) and 5 were scored by defenceman (a bit of an aberration for the Leafs, who only have 11 goals from their defence all season). That leaves 4 goals scored by the rest of the forwards on the roster - and, really, that shouldn't be all that surprising, either. 2 of those 4 goals belong to the 2nd line - Kadri and Raymond each have one - and 2 to the 3rd - Clarkson and Kulemin. So, what the Leafs have right now is 2 lines that can score on a somewhat regular basis - 14 of the 18 goals scored by forwards in the last 10 games have been scored by players currently playing in the team's top 6. After that, the offence dries up, and quick.

This is no small part due to the so-called 3rd line - which gets more ice time than a number of teams' 2nd lines. It's centred by an offensive black hole, flanked by a winger who has shown some ability to finish, but virtually no ability to create in recent seasons (Clarkson) and another winger who doesn't shoot the puck anymore (Kulemin - though, I feel like this is in part due to how much time this line spends in the defensive zone). On top of that, the 4th line has little to no offensive skill and doesn't see the ice enough to contribute - the current group of 4th liners have 1 goal between them this season (D'Amigo's, scored while playing on the 3rd line) and other guys who have been regulars there have contributed an additional 2 in games where they saw 4th line type minutes. Basically, half the forwards on the team are not creating any offence and are spending most of their ice time in the defensive zone, which sucks the life out of whatever offensive flow the top two lines might have been able to create.

Another issue with the offence is obviously the lack of goals from the blue line, but, when you look at how the team plays and how they're set up, it's also pretty clear why this is happening, as well. In terms of even strength production, the Leafs simply aren't getting enough offensive zone time for the blue line to generate opportunities to put the puck in themselves with any sort of frequency. There are a lot of one-and-done rushes and not a lot of pucks being kicked back to the point for shots on net. On the PP, the 1st unit has a left-handed defenceman on the left point and a right-handed defenceman on the right point, eliminating the d-to-d one-timer, which is a significant source of goals for defencemen. Fortunately, so far, the forwards have managed to make the PP successful, but, again, a lot of the goals are generated through one-and-done type rushes or through individual efforts. The team isn't maximizing their PP and using it to wear down the opposition as much as they should.

Some of the offensive struggles come from guys who are in slumps or who haven't been able to replicate past success, but a lot of it also stems from how the lineup has been put together and how it's being used.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Some things I disagree with in that Cox article:

Let?s start with a realistic look at what he has to work with at this time. He?s got some good scoring forwards, but that gets thin outside of the top six.

Some good scoring forwards? Kessel, JVR, and Lupul are all on pace to score 30 goals. How many teams can say that? Maybe half a dozen? And yeah, most teams' offence gets a little thin outside the top-6, but the Leafs would still line-up two outta three of Raymond, Kessel, and Clarkson on the 3rd line wings and even in a 3rd line role those guys should be able to get about 30 points. When Bozak was out and the team lined up Kadri-Smith-Holland down the middle it looked like we had 3 lines that could produce. Even an AHLer like Smith looked pretty good because of the quality of wingers he was flanked between. 

In general, the club lacks size and toughness on the wings.

The Leafs have one winger on the entire team that's not 200lbs. JVR, Clarkson, Lupul, and Kulemin have all shown in their careers that they aren't afraid of the physical play. And then there's whichever wingers Carlyle plugs into the 4th line, even the ones who can't play hockey are big and tough at least.

On the back end, Carlyle doesn?t have a single reliable pair,

Gunnarsson-Phaneuf had pretty good numbers under the previous coach, and while they aren't great right now they're still currently getting the job done. The other pairings have been a jumbled mess with Carlyle changing them every 3 games.

and he?s working with 23-year-old Jake Gardiner and 19-year-old Morgan Rielly, two blueliners who are very much in the apprentice stage of their NHL careers.

Gardiner's a young NHL defenceman, but there are plenty of teams with young guys on their blueline that are having success. As for Rielly, Carlyle chose to have him on the team over a more experienced and similarly talented defenceman in Liles. He can't blame his defensive struggles on a decision that he made.

In goal, he has two very promising young goalies, neither one of whom has yet proven they can be a full-time, No. 1 goalie in the NHL.

Except when Reimer did it last season. Also, this is the 2nd time Cox has brought this point up. How on earth do you even kinda-sorta blame goaltending on this teams struggles? They have the 5th best save percentage in the entire league. Up until Reimer's last start both goalies were top-10 in save percentage. Bernier is still there while Reimer fell out a bit. I don't remember him pointing the fingers at goaltending when Wilson was the teams coach. My god, this team would have been relegated already with those types of performances.

This is basically what Carlyle had going into the season, which is why most reasonable people believed the rebuilding Leafs could at best contend for a playoff position, and might not get one.

This may be true, but it's certainly not the expectations that Leafs management set for this season. Also, the Toronto media just won't let that October record go. They just can't separate the teams position in the standings to their performance on the ice. They keep clutching to the fact that the Leafs were a playoff team, and now they're clutching to the fact that they're just outside the playoffs. What are they going to do if the team keeps playing like they have for the past 2 and a half months and fall out? Right now we're 20th in the league. We're more of a lottery team at this point than we are fighting for a playoff spot.

None of the members of the Leaf ?core? have won an NHL championship.

How many former Stanley Cup winners are there on most teams that win a Cup? Not counting teams like Boston/Chicago/Pittsburgh that won for their 2nd time? One? Two? Maybe three? Do those guys really make that big of a difference? Particularly just in terms of regular season play?

With the Leafs, Carlyle has chosen to go with the so-called ?swarm? style of defending. The idea is that when an opposing player gains control of the puck in the Leaf zone, two or more Leafs are to quickly outnumber the opponent, gain control of the puck and move it to safety.

...

If the opponent moves the puck quickly, well, then the Leafs are chasing, and we?d all agree they spend an inordinate amount of time chasing in their own zone, often without either defenceman guarding the front of the net.

...

Perhaps he thought he didn?t have the personnel to do it any other way, and when you look at the likes of Phil Kessel, Joffrey Lupul, James van Riemsdyk and Kadri, you might agree that sturdy, defensively competent forwards aren?t in great supply on the Leaf roster.

So the solution to playing with a team full of forwards who aren't very good defensively is to create a system where they're basically just chasing the puck? Genius.

Lastly, I love in the whole deconstruction of the team he doesn't once mention the fact that the Leafs are lacking a top line centre. Not once. Pretty much every part of the team got ripped except Bozak and McClement.

 

[ZBBM]

Cox's article is full of self-created "facts" (like you "have to" give an experienced coach 3 full seasons ... really?) delivered in his usual patronizing way.  Woe to us poor, dumb, greedy, delusional, and oh-so-far-down-the-ladder-from-Damien-Cox fans.

Cox can write well but this column is garbage from the get-go.

 

[Kin]

The Leafs have one winger on the entire team that's not 200lbs. JVR, Clarkson, Lupul, and Kulemin have all shown in their careers that they aren't afraid of the physical play. And then there's whichever wingers Carlyle plugs into the 4th line, even the ones who can't play hockey are big and tough at least.

That doesn't really refute the idea that the team lacks size on the wing. The average NHL player is 6'1 and 203 lbs. The only winger the Leafs have in their top nine taller than average is JVR and the only winger they have in the top 9 significantly heavier than average is Kulemin.

Likewise, there's a bit of a gap between "aren't afraid of the physical play" and someone who I think stands out for their toughness. I don't know if I'd describe any of the forwards you listed as such except maybe Clarkson and even that would just be based on things I'd heard about prior to this year.