Ryan O'Byrne To Toronto

[OldTimeHockey]

I'd rather see:

O'Byrne - Phaneuf
Liles - Gardiner/Gunnarson
Fraser - Franson

Would prefer to see Gunnarson as a healthy scratch, really not seeing anything out of him this season. Maybe i just keep missing all his good plays, but i seem to always see his giveaways.
Seeing as O'Byrne is a stay at home defenceman, it may allow Phaneuf to be a bit more free to be offensive.

O'Byrne is not a first pairing guy. Gunnar is a better player than him

Gunnarson has been the worst dman on the ice this year.

 

[Zee]

I'd rather see:

O'Byrne - Phaneuf
Liles - Gardiner/Gunnarson
Fraser - Franson

Would prefer to see Gunnarson as a healthy scratch, really not seeing anything out of him this season. Maybe i just keep missing all his good plays, but i seem to always see his giveaways.
Seeing as O'Byrne is a stay at home defenceman, it may allow Phaneuf to be a bit more free to be offensive.

O'Byrne is not a first pairing guy. Gunnar is a better player than him

Gunnarson has been the worst dman on the ice this year.

Really?  Worse than Holzer?  Which team are you watching?

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I'd rather see:

O'Byrne - Phaneuf
Liles - Gardiner/Gunnarson
Fraser - Franson

Would prefer to see Gunnarson as a healthy scratch, really not seeing anything out of him this season. Maybe i just keep missing all his good plays, but i seem to always see his giveaways.
Seeing as O'Byrne is a stay at home defenceman, it may allow Phaneuf to be a bit more free to be offensive.

O'Byrne is not a first pairing guy. Gunnar is a better player than him

Gunnarson has been the worst dman on the ice this year.

Really?  Worse than Holzer?  Which team are you watching?

Apologies, "Gunnarson has been one of the worst dman still on the team this year".

Fixed?

 

[gilmourthegreat]

A huge part of Gardiner's development going forward is going to be mental. Part of that development may include him realizing he's not good enough yet to play top-six minutes in the playoffs. If he isn't, he will need to make the necessary adjustments to his preparation.

If Gardiner can't make an NHL-average top-six, the solution isn't to water down his competition, it's to make him realize he has to work harder. Part of that solution can involve raising the competitive bar.

Gardiner has the physical tools to be absolutely dominant, at this point for him it's about learning to harness those tools properly.

I don't necessarily disagree with any of that. I just don't think it can be done from the press box. If the argument was playing him in the NHL vs. the AHL then sure but I don't think there's much, if any, benefit to sitting a guy in the press box for a significant chunk of the year even if he weren't good enough to be playing which, personally, I don't think has been the case with Gardiner.

Yeah, I'm not sure Gardiner isn't top-six playoff material myself. Based on his play this season, I think it's up in the air. However, I do see a potential motivational benefit to him sitting some playoff games if he can't markedly beat out Ryan O'Byrne or Mike Kostka for a roster spot.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I'd rather see:

O'Byrne - Phaneuf
Liles - Gardiner/Gunnarson
Fraser - Franson

Would prefer to see Gunnarson as a healthy scratch, really not seeing anything out of him this season. Maybe i just keep missing all his good plays, but i seem to always see his giveaways.
Seeing as O'Byrne is a stay at home defenceman, it may allow Phaneuf to be a bit more free to be offensive.

O'Byrne is not a first pairing guy. Gunnar is a better player than him

Gunnarson has been the worst dman on the ice this year.

Really?  Worse than Holzer?  Which team are you watching?

And really, my statement is me exagerrating, but he has been making some pretty boneheaded plays lately.

 

[crowlster]

I'd rather see:

O'Byrne - Phaneuf
Liles - Gardiner/Gunnarson
Fraser - Franson

Would prefer to see Gunnarson as a healthy scratch, really not seeing anything out of him this season. Maybe i just keep missing all his good plays, but i seem to always see his giveaways.
Seeing as O'Byrne is a stay at home defenceman, it may allow Phaneuf to be a bit more free to be offensive.

O'Byrne is not a first pairing guy. Gunnar is a better player than him

Gunnarson has been the worst dman on the ice this year.

Really?  Worse than Holzer?  Which team are you watching?

And really, my statement is me exagerrating, but he has been making some pretty boneheaded plays lately.

Along with this statement, maybe it is time to pair Phaneuf with a defenceman who actually has experience....

 

[Kin]

However, I do see a potential motivational benefit to him sitting some playoff games if he can't markedly beat out Ryan O'Byrne or Mike Kostka for a roster spot.

Maybe. However I think A) a lot of that motivational benefit will get across by sitting him for a few regular season games which they're doing anyway and B) if the idea were that Gardiner were going to play in the regular season and then be benched in the playoffs, it would be different than what I'm saying which is the idea that Gardiner would be pushed out of the line-up right now. Sure, he's not playing but I think we all know that Kostka is a temporary solution.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I'd rather see:

O'Byrne - Phaneuf
Liles - Gardiner/Gunnarson
Fraser - Franson

Would prefer to see Gunnarson as a healthy scratch, really not seeing anything out of him this season. Maybe i just keep missing all his good plays, but i seem to always see his giveaways.
Seeing as O'Byrne is a stay at home defenceman, it may allow Phaneuf to be a bit more free to be offensive.

O'Byrne is not a first pairing guy. Gunnar is a better player than him

Gunnarson has been the worst dman on the ice this year.

Really?  Worse than Holzer?  Which team are you watching?

And really, my statement is me exagerrating, but he has been making some pretty boneheaded plays lately.

Along with this statement, maybe it is time to pair Phaneuf with a defenceman who actually has experience....

Which Gunnarsson has.

 

[crowlster]

I'd rather see:

O'Byrne - Phaneuf
Liles - Gardiner/Gunnarson
Fraser - Franson

Would prefer to see Gunnarson as a healthy scratch, really not seeing anything out of him this season. Maybe i just keep missing all his good plays, but i seem to always see his giveaways.
Seeing as O'Byrne is a stay at home defenceman, it may allow Phaneuf to be a bit more free to be offensive.

O'Byrne is not a first pairing guy. Gunnar is a better player than him

Gunnarson has been the worst dman on the ice this year.

Really?  Worse than Holzer?  Which team are you watching?

And really, my statement is me exagerrating, but he has been making some pretty boneheaded plays lately.

Along with this statement, maybe it is time to pair Phaneuf with a defenceman who actually has experience....

Which Gunnarsson has.

2 and a half season isn't exactly enough experience for a first pairing....

 

[maplesyrup]

Late to the party... I'm pretty happy with the day as a whole.

 

[gilmourthegreat]

However, I do see a potential motivational benefit to him sitting some playoff games if he can't markedly beat out Ryan O'Byrne or Mike Kostka for a roster spot.

Maybe. However I think A) a lot of that motivational benefit will get across by sitting him for a few regular season games which they're doing anyway and B) if the idea were that Gardiner were going to play in the regular season and then be benched in the playoffs, it would be different than what I'm saying which is the idea that Gardiner would be pushed out of the line-up right now. Sure, he's not playing but I think we all know that Kostka is a temporary solution.

I do think there is a difference between being benched for the playoffs and the regular season. The playoffs are more important, and great players rise to the occasion for them. A play who wants to be great should be all the more motivated to not miss the playoffs.

Regardless, I think it's important to recognize that Gardiner's development is a minor consideration compared to icing the best possible team. If Gardiner isn't one of the best six defencemen available come playoff time, then the needs of the team supercede his interests.

The playoffs are the best time to develop young talent, with the major caveat that they must deserve their minutes.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I'd rather see:

O'Byrne - Phaneuf
Liles - Gardiner/Gunnarson
Fraser - Franson

Would prefer to see Gunnarson as a healthy scratch, really not seeing anything out of him this season. Maybe i just keep missing all his good plays, but i seem to always see his giveaways.
Seeing as O'Byrne is a stay at home defenceman, it may allow Phaneuf to be a bit more free to be offensive.

O'Byrne is not a first pairing guy. Gunnar is a better player than him

Gunnarson has been the worst dman on the ice this year.

Really?  Worse than Holzer?  Which team are you watching?

And really, my statement is me exagerrating, but he has been making some pretty boneheaded plays lately.

Along with this statement, maybe it is time to pair Phaneuf with a defenceman who actually has experience....

Which Gunnarsson has.

2 and a half season isn't exactly enough experience for a first pairing....

Other than the fact he's played first pairing minutes before, while O'Byrne has yet to play more than 74 games in a season, and has the equivalent of basically 1 full season of "experience" over Gunnarsson (300 games to 215 games total).  How does that qualify O'Byrne for 1st pairing minutes?  Gunnarsson has been better than O'Byrne ever has.

 

[Kin]

I do think there is a difference between being benched for the playoffs and the regular season. The playoffs are more important, and great players rise to the occasion for them. A play who wants to be great should be all the more motivated to not miss the playoffs.

I think it would say something pretty bad about a player who took any benching as anything other than a serious sign that he needs to play better. I just don't see that being any more true in the playoffs. In fact, it could even be less true considering that players are frequently shifted in an out of a playoff lineup in an attempt to shake things up. 

Regardless, I think it's important to recognize that Gardiner's development is a minor consideration compared to icing the best possible team. 

Short term? Sure. Long term? No.

The playoffs are the best time to develop young talent, with the major caveat that they must deserve their minutes.

I don't agree. Phil Kessel, for instance, got benched in his first playoffs despite scoring points throughout because Boston wanted to be more physical. It's not like it taught Phil Kessel to be more physical. The playoffs are different.

But, again, sitting Gardiner for the playoffs isn't really what I'm talking about.

 

[ZBBM]

I don't get the angst over whether Gardiner is ready for top-6 minutes in the playoffs.  Who cares?  This team is not going to be competing for the Cup, all the current sunshine notwithstanding.

Gardiner is part of the long-term future of the defense.  IMO he ought to get significant minutes in the playoffs, at least on the bottom pairing.  Not because he deserves it -- he doesn't, as of yet -- but because the only way to get playoff experience is to, uh, get playoff experience.  That's what this year is all about. 

Good grief, we just decided to run with Reimer/Scrivens in the playoffs.  The whole enterprise is about getting our feet wet.  There is no downside, not even a first-round exit.

 

[Britishbulldog]

Called it (sorta)!

He's a fancy stats fail, okaaay but he's also a big hulking stay-at-home guy who plays the right side (critical right now) and hopefully will do a lot better on a team that is winning.

After you mentioned him I went on Center Ice and watched some past Av games and he was solid postionally, strong in front of the net and rather mobile.

Just getting home from work I must say that I am happy with all the trades the Leafs did today!

 

[trojanweed]

looks like its time to get excited and dust off the leafs flags.

i've been holding out all year, but i think its time. i'm tired of seeing the bruins flags and sens flags flying everywhere.  this is depth where they need it, the leafs are looking like they plan to beat the crap out of whoever they face first round. 

 

[gilmourthegreat]

I think it would say something pretty bad about a player who took any benching as anything other than a serious sign that he needs to play better. I just don't see that being any more true in the playoffs. In fact, it could even be less true considering that players are frequently shifted in an out of a playoff lineup in an attempt to shake things up.

I think there are degrees of motivation which a benching can provide. It's too simple to say that a benching is either motivational or it isn't. I would argue that the context matters.

Short term? Sure. Long term? No.

I disagree. The Leafs are one of the youngest teams in the league, with very little combined playoff experience; every additional game they play will benefit the group, and by extension the franchise, more than than any scenario in which Gardiner got additional experience at the expense of team success. If the team is able to win a playoff series, and Gardiner does not dress by virtue of his sub-par play, so be it.

I don't agree. Phil Kessel, for instance, got benched in his first playoffs despite scoring points throughout because Boston wanted to be more physical. It's not like it taught Phil Kessel to be more physical. The playoffs are different.

You don't agree that the playoffs are the best time to develop young talent, or that players must deserve their minutes?

The fact that Kessel theoretically failed to learn anything from being benched doesn't change that he may not have deserved ice time in those games he was benched, and that there was a potential utility in the benching. Kessel's defensive game has been on a gentle upswing over the past few seasons, who is to say his playoff experience (and subequent trade from a contender) hasn't been a factor in that?

 

[pnjunction]

Big guy, little bit of playoff experience...seems decent if he's a got a good head on his shoulders (i.e. not many gaffes).

Looks like he'll throw down every now and then as well?  Quite a tough squad we're building up.

 

[Kin]

I think there are degrees of motivation which a benching can provide. It's too simple to say that a benching is either motivational or it isn't. I would argue that the context matters.

I agree. What I'm saying is that I don't think there's a difference in the severity of a benching between the regular season and the playoffs and that if there is, it may actually be on the side of the regular season.

I disagree. The Leafs are one of the youngest teams in the league, with very little combined playoff experience; every additional game they play will benefit the group, and by extension the franchise, more than than any scenario in which Gardiner got additional experiece at the expense of team success.

With all due respect, that's what I would categorize as being too simple. "Experience" isn't like interest that compounds. I doubt very seriously that there's a tangible benefit to playing, say, 6 playoff games as opposed to five. If I have to choose between a quick playoff exit where everyone, including the Leafs most important prospects like Gardiner, get the experience and a slightly longer one I don't think there's any tangible difference in the experience there for the other guys.

You don't agree that the playoffs are the best time to develop young talent, or that players must deserve their minutes?

More the former than the latter. But if one of your best prospects is slightly worse than an AHL journeyman who would otherwise fill the spot, I'm fine with making the team slightly worse in that situation if you're not expecting to go deep anyway.

The fact that Kessel theoretically failed to learn anything from being benched doesn't change that he may not have deserved ice time in those games he was benched, and that there was a potential utility in the benching. Kessel's defensive game has been on a gentle upswing over the past few seasons, who is to say his playoff experience (and subequent trade from a contender) hasn't been a factor in that?

You're missing my point slightly. Kessel did perform in the playoffs and his benching wasn't phrased to him as "you're not playing well enough" but rather "You provide quality X and to beat this team, we need quality Y". I'm saying that a young player is less inclined to take that as a serious critique than a blanket "you're not playing well enough right now". The playoffs are a different animal.

But, and I don't want to be too repetitive here, but if the idea is to play Gardiner in the regular season but re-evaluate come the playoffs then that is an altogether different situation than what I'm talking about.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I'll defer further judgment until I see him play, but not expecting much really.