Sabres @ Leafs - Nov. 16th, 7:00pm - CBC, TSN 1050

[Peter D.]

#BringBackWilson

Pretty funny but seriously it seems like they win in spite of RC not because of.

I legitimately believe the team played better overall hockey under Wilson than it has under Carlyle.  The teams he had, looking back on it, were so incredibly average combined with awful goaltending.

Kulemin scored 30 under Wilson's tutelage. If anyone cares to read anything into that.

 

[hockeyfan1]

Much-needed win tonight, the start g a five-game homestand.

Reimer was solid, and the top line got themselves a centre (Holland) while JVR went back to the wing.  Magic.  As usual.  Holland was the key here.  Also, kudos to Kulemin on scoring the game-winner.

GO LEAFS GO!  Let's win all the upcoming home games!

 

[moon111]

#BringBackWilson

Pretty funny but seriously it seems like they win in spite of RC not because of.

I legitimately believe the team played better overall hockey under Wilson than it has under Carlyle.  The teams he had, looking back on it, were so incredibly average combined with awful goaltending.

Kulemin scored 30 under Wilson's tutelage. If anyone cares to read anything into that.

And every goalie who played under him had their worst stats ever.

 

[princedpw]

Yet it's hard to pinpoint exactly what he's doing that's overtly wrong, other than blockheaded lineup choices.

No, that's a little easier. The defensive system he has them playing isn't working. They're collapsing far down low, and that's making it more difficult for them to get the puck out, because the short passes to move it out aren't available - they're forced to either skate the puck out, which is difficult when the other team has a good forecheck going, or shoot it out, which leads to a lot of turnovers. When they do get the puck, the separation between the forwards and the defence is too excessive - again, taking away the short passes, forcing a lot of long passes and cross ice passes that lead to turnovers. Basically, the system he has them playing is turnover city. Part of it is the guys on the ice, but, his system makes it so much worse than it needs to be.

Very good analysis.  But weren't they playing the same system last year?  Somehow the puck support was better.

But they were also extremely poor last year when it came to puck possession.  Yes, it seems they are even worse this year, but they were at the very bottom of the league last year too.

It also seems that when the Leafs get ahead they just completely collapse.  The Boston loss wasn't a fluke or a surprise. It is par for the course.

Outshot 35-22 by the Sabres?  It is ridiculous. 

 

[freer]

Good period, and half the second.. Not happy with the way the third went. Clarkson had two point. And very happy with the out come. Any news on Fraser? Please bench Gardiner, he was awful in the third.

 

[Frank E]

Yet it's hard to pinpoint exactly what he's doing that's overtly wrong, other than blockheaded lineup choices.

No, that's a little easier. The defensive system he has them playing isn't working. They're collapsing far down low, and that's making it more difficult for them to get the puck out, because the short passes to move it out aren't available - they're forced to either skate the puck out, which is difficult when the other team has a good forecheck going, or shoot it out, which leads to a lot of turnovers. When they do get the puck, the separation between the forwards and the defence is too excessive - again, taking away the short passes, forcing a lot of long passes and cross ice passes that lead to turnovers. Basically, the system he has them playing is turnover city. Part of it is the guys on the ice, but, his system makes it so much worse than it needs to be.

Very good analysis.  But weren't they playing the same system last year?  Somehow the puck support was better.

But they were also extremely poor last year when it came to puck possession.  Yes, it seems they are even worse this year, but they were at the very bottom of the league last year too.

It also seems that when the Leafs get ahead they just completely collapse.  The Boston loss wasn't a fluke or a surprise. It is par for the course.

Outshot 35-22 by the Sabres?  It is ridiculous.

Well, Carlyle is playing Gardiner 20+ minutes a game now...the guy a month ago people were suggesting that Carlyle had an unreasonable hate for. 

I can only think they're trying to develop his game by playing him even though he turns the puck over like a boss.

I think we improperly attribute too many poor defensive plays to Carlyle's "system", then we attribute the strong offensive play to individual players.  This is likely what this team is going to look like while they're a work in progress when the roster is healthy...never mind they've lost 2 or 3 centers, and last night had one center that actually played hockey in the NHL at the start of the season.     

Go easy on him boys.

 

[TML fan]

Yet it's hard to pinpoint exactly what he's doing that's overtly wrong, other than blockheaded lineup choices.

No, that's a little easier. The defensive system he has them playing isn't working. They're collapsing far down low, and that's making it more difficult for them to get the puck out, because the short passes to move it out aren't available - they're forced to either skate the puck out, which is difficult when the other team has a good forecheck going, or shoot it out, which leads to a lot of turnovers. When they do get the puck, the separation between the forwards and the defence is too excessive - again, taking away the short passes, forcing a lot of long passes and cross ice passes that lead to turnovers. Basically, the system he has them playing is turnover city. Part of it is the guys on the ice, but, his system makes it so much worse than it needs to be.

Very good analysis.  But weren't they playing the same system last year?  Somehow the puck support was better.

But they were also extremely poor last year when it came to puck possession.  Yes, it seems they are even worse this year, but they were at the very bottom of the league last year too.

It also seems that when the Leafs get ahead they just completely collapse.  The Boston loss wasn't a fluke or a surprise. It is par for the course.

Outshot 35-22 by the Sabres?  It is ridiculous.

I think we improperly attribute too many poor defensive plays to Carlyle's "system", then we attribute the strong offensive play to individual players.  This is likely what this team is going to look like while they're a work in progress when the roster is healthy...never mind they've lost 2 or 3 centers, and last night had one center that actually played hockey in the NHL at the start of the season.     

Go easy on him boys.

They were bad before everyone got hurt. It's the system.

 

[Highlander]

How did Holland play, I just watched his 3 goals with the Ducks and they were beauties.

 

[Kessel Run]

How did Holland play, I just watched his 3 goals with the Ducks and they were beauties.

He was fine, didn't look too out of place.

 

[Leafaholic99]

How did Holland play, I just watched his 3 goals with the Ducks and they were beauties.

He was fine, didn't look too out of place.

Yea, I was impressed that he was able to keep up with Kessel and JVR on most of thier rushes.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

Wow, Gunnarsson played 26:14, two minutes more than Phaneuf.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

#BringBackWilson

Pretty funny but seriously it seems like they win in spite of RC not because of.

I legitimately believe the team played better overall hockey under Wilson than it has under Carlyle.  The teams he had, looking back on it, were so incredibly average combined with awful goaltending.

Kulemin scored 30 under Wilson's tutelage. If anyone cares to read anything into that.

And every goalie who played under him had their worst stats ever.

It's certainly not Wilson's style that contributed to that. I mean, that would smack right in the faces of everyone that screams that Carlyle's system is at fault for an average team being 12-7-1 to start the season.

Despite what everyone is screaming about and as painful as it is to watch this team, if you were to open this team up and play Wilson's style, with their 3 top C's out, this team would be 7-12-1 at best.

They simply don't have the defensive skill to play the wide open hockey that Wilson implemented and demanded. The goaltending may lead to a slightly better result than Wilson's, but not much. Not in my opinion anyways.

I'll completely agree with everyone that dressing two fighters a game is a move that doesn't make sense. Other than that, I don't have any real issue with Carlyle's "system"...I mean the team is 5 games over .500 playing without key players all year.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I mean, it's quite obvious that Wilson's system is the system this team should be playing with...It's worked for every other team he's coached since he left the Leafs.....Hey, wait a minute

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

#BringBackWilson

Pretty funny but seriously it seems like they win in spite of RC not because of.

I legitimately believe the team played better overall hockey under Wilson than it has under Carlyle.  The teams he had, looking back on it, were so incredibly average combined with awful goaltending.

Kulemin scored 30 under Wilson's tutelage. If anyone cares to read anything into that.

And every goalie who played under him had their worst stats ever.

That's a nice thought in theory.  Here's an interesting link: http://theleafsnation.com/2013/1/16/ron-wilsons-effect-on-goalies


If you don't feel like reading a bunch on a Sunday morning I'll paste the conclusion for you:

The goalies Wilson had were not impressive. If you eliminate his time in Toronto, Wilson had no effect on his goaltenders. If you include his time with the Leafs, "no effect" becomes "close to negligible effect" if you can get over the idea that JS Giguere had one-and-a-half miserable years.

What did we learn here? Well, other than Olaf Kolzig is pretty average, it appears goaltenders playing under Ron Wilson's system don't see their statlines affected.

He had crap goalies and you and everyone knows it.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

It's certainly not Wilson's style that contributed to that. I mean, that would smack right in the faces of everyone that screams that Carlyle's system is at fault for an average team being 12-7-1 to start the season.

Despite what everyone is screaming about and as painful as it is to watch this team, if you were to open this team up and play Wilson's style, with their 3 top C's out, this team would be 7-12-1 at best.

They simply don't have the defensive skill to play the wide open hockey that Wilson implemented and demanded. The goaltending may lead to a slightly better result than Wilson's, but not much. Not in my opinion anyways.

I'll completely agree with everyone that dressing two fighters a game is a move that doesn't make sense. Other than that, I don't have any real issue with Carlyle's "system"...I mean the team is 5 games over .500 playing without key players all year.

Without any stats or anything, you can't honestly watch the games and tell me this Leafs team gives up less high quality scoring chances than the teams under Wilson.  It's a nice narrative and all, but every time I watch a Leafs game this year other teams are hemming the Leafs in and constantly getting great chances that Bernier or Reimer have to bail the team out on.

Everyone forgets that Reimer had a similar stretch under Wilson in a similar number of games as he did last season under Carlyle.  Reimer struggled when he was injured.  His ability to perform just as well under Wilson suggests (along with the link I posted above) that the goalies are what the goalies are.

Given even a league average goaltending tandem they should have made the playoffs: http://theleafsnation.com/2012/4/3/with-average-goaltending-the-leafs-would-have-made-the-playoffs

I don't even care so much about the goaltending - I think from the eyesight test that the team as a whole played better under Wilson than it has under Carlyle.  And I'm sorry, I don't see a coach being able to coach a 12% shooting percentage out of team that he got last season and which contributed greatly to their success in a short season.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Wow, Gunnarsson played 26:14, two minutes more than Phaneuf.

I don't think Gunnar gets nearly as much credit around the league as he should. He's a solid guy for us.

 

[moon111]

I prefer Randy Carlyle's teams being out-shot over Ron Wilson's teams giving up clear breakaways.  Would be interesting to see how a tandem of Raycroft and Toskala, fresh from their previous teams, would do right now for the Leafs.  Despite all the shots, I don't think Raycroft's glove gets exposed.  And even if it did become known, teams wouldn't get as many chances to test it.  I said the Leafs wouldn't be through their transition until Darcy Tucker's contract came off the books.  This season is just another stepping stone going in the right direction.

 

[moon111]

Wow, Gunnarsson played 26:14, two minutes more than Phaneuf.

I don't think Gunnar gets nearly as much credit around the league as he should. He's a solid guy for us.

He's one of the better D at taking the body, blocking shots, etc.  But his puck skills are the worst of all the defensemen on the team.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I prefer Randy Carlyle's teams being out-shot over Ron Wilson's teams giving up clear breakaways. 

It's hilarious that you think that doesn't happen often under Carlyle too.  It's just that the goalies stop them more now.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Wow, Gunnarsson played 26:14, two minutes more than Phaneuf.

I don't think Gunnar gets nearly as much credit around the league as he should. He's a solid guy for us.

Yeah he's just quietly dependable.