Tank Nation UNITE!!!

[LuncheonMeat]

CAR not far off the Leafs win% either. 3rd overall looking possible all of a sudden...

Yeah you're right. 5 points back but Carolina has 2 games in hand. They're 6-2-2 in the last 10 while the Leafs are 1-8-1. Neither of those trends will keep up for the rest of the season but if they continue for just a little longer it could put us in that race.

I'm really feeling like a top 5 is likely, hopefully closer to the 3 spot.  I sort of feel like we're trying to outrace a train - guys like Franson, Winnick and Santorelli need to get shipped out before this team has a chance to go on a streak.  The collective will of the team needs to be crushed... and quickly.  :-\

No professional team will go out to lose on purpose. (I think they lose draft picks if they were caught doing so) If the team wins so be it, then winning the draft pick was not meant to be.

I'm not saying the team should make a decision to lose, I'm saying I hope they move out a bunch of guys before they have a chance to start winning.  And I don't really believe where they draft is a matter of fate.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I know they say that the draft is a crapshoot... but I was just looking at some past drafts, and I didn't realize just HOW terrible the leafs were at drafting...

Ignoring all the traded draft picks, the Leafs managed to trade NO NHL talent over 4 drafts...

Rask, Steen, Stralman, Stajan, White. One franchise goalie, one top line forward, one top pairing defenceman, and then two serviceable NHLers who played 700 and 500 plus NHL games respectively. I know you said ignoring picks that were traded but that's not really fair if you're just judging the scouting teams. With that said, '03 and '04 were obviously two massive failures.

edit: Christ, John Mitchell has almost played 400 NHL games. So at least something came out of the '03 draft too. Nothing to jump up and down about but I'd take it out of the "massive failure" category.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

No professional team will go out to lose on purpose.

Further to what LuncheonMeat said, that's also just not true. Professional athletes definitely wouldn't go out to lose on purpose, but literally 0 people are suggesting that. Their front offices would and have definitely gone out of their way to ensure a good draft pick.

 

[Peter D.]

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2002e.html

If we could go back and have the 2002 draft re-done, and knowing what we know today, should the Leafs still draft Alex Steen or should they take Cam Ward?

 

[freer]

No professional team will go out to lose on purpose.

Further to what LuncheonMeat said, that's also just not true. Professional athletes definitely wouldn't go out to lose on purpose, but literally 0 people are suggesting that. Their front offices would and have definitely gone out of their way to ensure a good draft pick.

I understand that everyone on this tread wants the team to lose. (I understand the theory) I happily watch them beat the Oiler's on Saturday and I enjoyed it. I secretly want more of that.

 

[Joe S.]

I know they say that the draft is a crapshoot... but I was just looking at some past drafts, and I didn't realize just HOW terrible the leafs were at drafting...

Ignoring all the traded draft picks, the Leafs managed to trade NO NHL talent over 4 drafts...

Rask, Steen, Stralman, Stajan, White. One franchise goalie, one top line forward, one top pairing defenceman, and then two serviceable NHLers who played 700 and 500 plus NHL games respectively. I know you said ignoring picks that were traded but that's not really fair if you're just judging the scouting teams. With that said, '03 and '04 were obviously two massive failures.

edit: Christ, John Mitchell has almost played 400 NHL games. So at least something came out of the '03 draft too. Nothing to jump up and down about but I'd take it out of the "massive failure" category.

I should have phrased it better. But all the legit NHL talent is gone. Not a single NHL player remains from those drafts with the Leafs.

What's the return that the leafs have for the traded players? I think as of right now it's only Phaneuf...

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

No professional team will go out to lose on purpose.

Further to what LuncheonMeat said, that's also just not true. Professional athletes definitely wouldn't go out to lose on purpose, but literally 0 people are suggesting that. Their front offices would and have definitely gone out of their way to ensure a good draft pick.

I understand that everyone on this tread wants the team to lose. (I understand the theory) I happily watch them beat the Oiler's on Saturday and I enjoyed it. I secretly want more of that.

I always view it as this:  I'd rather they either make the playoffs or get as high a draft pick as possible.  Me?  I cannot control either outcome, so when the game starts, I still enjoy them playing well and making good plays and get excited when they score.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I should have phrased it better. But all the legit NHL talent is gone. Not a single NHL player remains from those drafts with the Leafs.

What's the return that the leafs have for the traded players? I think as of right now it's only Phaneuf...

And this I definitely agree with. But your original beef was with the amateur scouting staff when it should have been with the GMs + other front office people who foolishly traded away some pretty good draft selections.

 

[Joe S.]

I should have phrased it better. But all the legit NHL talent is gone. Not a single NHL player remains from those drafts with the Leafs.

What's the return that the leafs have for the traded players? I think as of right now it's only Phaneuf...

And this I definitely agree with. But your original beef was with the amateur scouting staff when it should have been with the GMs + other front office people who foolishly traded away some pretty good draft selections.

You're right... phrasing!!

Still though - it's kind of a combination of both...

For example, I wish I knew what it was about John Doherty that made them think he was worth a second round pick, because looking at the stats, I don't get it. Obviously there's more to it than that... but still, it would be interesting to know.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

For example, I wish I knew what it was about John Doherty that made them think he was worth a second round pick, because looking at the stats, I don't get it. Obviously there's more to it than that... but still, it would be interesting to know.

Yeah that was the worst. I remember that he was a really, really big kid and Trapp (I think it was him at the time) wouldn't shut up about how raw he was as a player and how much potential he had. It really seemed like they just found a big guy who could skate and assumed everything else would come after.

I remember when Roman Kukumberg was drafted too they suggested that he might be NHL ready because he was in his early 20s when he was picked.

 

[freer]

For example, I wish I knew what it was about John Doherty that made them think he was worth a second round pick, because looking at the stats, I don't get it. Obviously there's more to it than that... but still, it would be interesting to know.

Yeah that was the worst. I remember that he was a really, really big kid and Trapp (I think it was him at the time) wouldn't shut up about how raw he was as a player and how much potential he had. It really seemed like they just found a big guy who could skate and assumed everything else would come after.

I remember when Roman Kukumberg was drafted too they suggested that he might be NHL ready because he was in his early 20s when he was picked.

Who?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Obviously 2003 was really bad (and the worst draft to not have a 1st/make a poor 2nd round selection in) but it's a bit of cherry-picking to take that draft and say that they've drafted terribly in recent memory.  The picks they've made haven't been amazing or terrible but they've found some quality players with later picks.  All teams have missteps at the draft, it's the nature of the beast.

 

[bustaheims]

I always view it as this:  I'd rather they either make the playoffs or get as high a draft pick as possible.  Me?  I cannot control either outcome, so when the game starts, I still enjoy them playing well and making good plays and get excited when they score.

That's where I'm at, too. I either want them to be a clear playoff team or a clear basement team. Being in between doesn't really do much to help them.

 

[Joe S.]

Obviously 2003 was really bad (and the worst draft to not have a 1st/make a poor 2nd round selection in) but it's a bit of cherry-picking to take that draft and say that they've drafted terribly in recent memory.  The picks they've made haven't been amazing or terrible but they've found some quality players with later picks.  All teams have missteps at the draft, it's the nature of the beast.

I didn't really cherry pick - I brought up 4 drafts - and it's a bad combination of asset mismanagement and poor picks - in retrospect...

I'm sure we could find other teams with a similar stretch of incompetence - but I kinda don't care about the other teams.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Obviously 2003 was really bad (and the worst draft to not have a 1st/make a poor 2nd round selection in) but it's a bit of cherry-picking to take that draft and say that they've drafted terribly in recent memory.  The picks they've made haven't been amazing or terrible but they've found some quality players with later picks.  All teams have missteps at the draft, it's the nature of the beast.

I didn't really cherry pick - I brought up 4 drafts - and it's a bad combination of asset mismanagement and poor picks - in retrospect...

I'm sure we could find other teams with a similar stretch of incompetence - but I kinda don't care about the other teams.

Well you picked 4 drafts, eliminated all of their best picks because they were subsequently dealt and then criticized the Leafs' for being terrible at drafting.  And then the example of a draft pick you provided was Doherty, a bad 2nd round pick from arguably their worst draft performance in 20 years.  That one was very bad, but generally they haven't been terrible at drafting.

But I think CtB covered the major points already.

 

[Joe S.]

Obviously 2003 was really bad (and the worst draft to not have a 1st/make a poor 2nd round selection in) but it's a bit of cherry-picking to take that draft and say that they've drafted terribly in recent memory.  The picks they've made haven't been amazing or terrible but they've found some quality players with later picks.  All teams have missteps at the draft, it's the nature of the beast.

I didn't really cherry pick - I brought up 4 drafts - and it's a bad combination of asset mismanagement and poor picks - in retrospect...

I'm sure we could find other teams with a similar stretch of incompetence - but I kinda don't care about the other teams.

Well you picked 4 drafts, eliminated all of their best picks because they were subsequently dealt and then criticized the Leafs' for being terrible at drafting.  And then the example of a draft pick you provided was Doherty, a bad 2nd round pick from arguably their worst draft performance in 20 years.  That one was very bad, but generally they haven't been terrible at drafting.

But I think CtB covered the major points already.

I've since clarified that I meant asset mismanagement - you know I'm not someone who is trying to generalize or gloss over facts...

The leafs mishandled their assets over that time period - I'm not way off base on that assertion...

And again, I highlighted one pick as an example, not as a generalization.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Obviously 2003 was really bad (and the worst draft to not have a 1st/make a poor 2nd round selection in) but it's a bit of cherry-picking to take that draft and say that they've drafted terribly in recent memory.  The picks they've made haven't been amazing or terrible but they've found some quality players with later picks.  All teams have missteps at the draft, it's the nature of the beast.

I didn't really cherry pick - I brought up 4 drafts - and it's a bad combination of asset mismanagement and poor picks - in retrospect...

I'm sure we could find other teams with a similar stretch of incompetence - but I kinda don't care about the other teams.

Well you picked 4 drafts, eliminated all of their best picks because they were subsequently dealt and then criticized the Leafs' for being terrible at drafting.  And then the example of a draft pick you provided was Doherty, a bad 2nd round pick from arguably their worst draft performance in 20 years.  That one was very bad, but generally they haven't been terrible at drafting.

But I think CtB covered the major points already.

I've since clarified that I meant asset mismanagement - you know I'm not someone who is trying to generalize or gloss over facts...

The leafs mishandled their assets over that time period - I'm not way off base on that assertion...

And again, I highlighted one pick as an example, not as a generalization.

I know, and that's fair enough.  I just think it completely changes what the criticism is.  But I trust that's what you meant to get across, and it's hard to argue.

 

[Chris]

If you want to see a real "swing and a miss" from 2003, the Rangers first round pick, Hugh Jessimen...at #12 played a grand total of 2 NHL games.

It's always fun to look back at old drafts. For overall ineptness, it would be tough to top the Leafs 1999 class...9 selections (led by Luca Cereda) who played a total of 3 NHL games. 1996 would have rivaled that (with #1 pick Marek Posmyk) except for the hidden gem at @204 (Kaberle).

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

If you want to see a real "swing and a miss" from 2003, the Rangers first round pick, Hugh Jessimen...at #12 played a grand total of 2 NHL games.

It's always fun to look back at old drafts. For overall ineptness, it would be tough to top the Leafs 1999 class...9 selections (led by Luca Cereda) who played a total of 3 NHL games. 1996 would have rivaled that (with #1 pick Marek Posmyk) except for the hidden gem at @204 (Kaberle).

Always sucked what happened with Cereda, diagnosed with a congenital heart defect not long after he was drafted.

 

[Chris]

Yeah, I don't know if he would have been an impact player otherwise.

As for Kukemberg, at least he wasn't taken until the 4th round. Still, the Leafs could have had Ryan Callahan, who was taken 13 picks later.