The Brian Burke Thread

[Tigger]

Like what?

It's kind of tough to say without knowing what was out there.

Fair enough, I haven't heard anything aside from the picks offered that defined anything, for me the price tags and deals leading up to today were an indication that there just really wasn't much out there that made sense.

For a guy who loves wheeling and dealing to stand pat was probably a tough but correct decision on his part.

 

[Mack674]

Like what?

It's kind of tough to say without knowing what was out there.

Fair enough, I haven't heard anything aside from the picks offered that defined anything, for me the price tags and deals leading up to today were an indication that there just really wasn't much out there that made sense.

For a guy who loves wheeling and dealing to stand pat was probably a tough but correct decision on his part.

Ive for the most part agreed fully with Burkes decesions (save the tale of the invincible Ron Wilson) so im satisfied that there wasn't really anything to be done. It sounded like from his descriptions that all he could get really were good draft picks and prospects for down the road for his current roster and well, he spent the last few years building this team and wasnt prepared to blow it up and start over. I can understand that.... for now.

You could say hes taken a risk and I guess a vote of confidence in his current roster by not bringing in anyone and insists this current team can get the job done. On the other hand though, even if he wanted to bring in anyone it sounds like the costs were outrageous and long term he's better off doing nothing.

Any way you look at it, we didn't give up a 1st round pick for Paul Gaustad.

 

[Kin]

Fair enough, I haven't heard anything aside from the picks offered that defined anything, for me the price tags and deals leading up to today were an indication that there just really wasn't much out there that made sense.

But as I said elsewhere, there's what makes sense for the Rangers and there's what makes sense for the Leafs. For the Rangers it makes no sense to go out and spend 1.05 on a dollar. For the Leafs I think you could argue it does. If we look at the trades that Burke's made since coming to Toronto I think that I'm left wondering if the only thing that does make sense to him are trades with very little in the way of risk or downside(excepting, joy of joys, the Kessel trade).

Those are all well and good but they don't come along too often and there comes a point where, provided the team needs significant improvement, you can't be overly picky. Right now, to me, it seems as though Burke is willing to only sign free agents provided they sign for below market value and only willing to make trades if he gets a great deal. Those are fine positions to take if the team is tearing up the league. Heck, those are fine positions to take if the team is progressing towards that.

With the team stagnating, however, that position reads as complacency.

 

[#1PilarFan]

Count me in as extremely disappointed in Burke, but not because of his failure to get anything accomplished today. Today was not the only day to make a move, it was just his last chance.

The team he built is sliding and all he can say is he believes in this mediocre collection of hockey players? How can he be so handcuffed with this roster?

 

[bustaheims]

But as I said elsewhere, there's what makes sense for the Rangers and there's what makes sense for the Leafs. For the Rangers it makes no sense to go out and spend 1.05 on a dollar. For the Leafs I think you could argue it does.

I actually really think it's the other way around. The Rangers are in a position where they can overpay to fill a need because they have a better base to build on. The Leafs, however, can't really afford to take away from what they already have to add a little less elsewhere, because, as we've seen, what they already have isn't quite good enough. In order to improve, the Leafs need to be getting more than they give up, not vice versa.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

I actually really think it's the other way around. The Rangers are in a position where they can overpay to fill a need because they have a better base to build on. The Leafs, however, can't really afford to take away from what they already have to add a little less elsewhere, because, as we've seen, what they already have isn't quite good enough. In order to improve, the Leafs need to be getting more than they give up, not vice versa.

I also agree with that. I actually like that he won't go and blow his brains out just because he can, or that the opportunity presents itself. I'm sure he could have landed Nash today, but I also think that would have been a really bad move for the franchise tomorrow.

I just hope the development and patience pays off.

 

[Kin]

I actually really think it's the other way around. The Rangers are in a position where they can overpay to fill a need because they have a better base to build on. The Leafs, however, can't really afford to take away from what they already have to add a little less elsewhere, because, as we've seen, what they already have isn't quite good enough. In order to improve, the Leafs need to be getting more than they give up, not vice versa.

I'd agree if we were strictly talking about trading prospects or picks but in a case like the Rangers, where they've got as good a chance to win the cup as anyone, there's absolutely no reason to make a trade that makes them a little bit worse currently. The Maple Leafs could use a shakeup. They could benefit from a infusion of new talent and whatever resulting chemistry benefits you might see.

I know that strikes some as shortsighted but I really think the "We can't take a hit now just to make the playoffs" is as shortsighted as can be. There are opportunities in the summer to add talent for no money. Likewise, there are trade avenues to take advantage of the Leafs' deep pockets later on to recoup that loss in talent.

Burke talked a lot about how he thinks the pressure on the team is bad for their dream journals or whatever but to me the best way to alleviate some of that pressure isn't to institute another nonsense rule or trade freeze, it's to put up some results. Nobody argues with winning. Making the playoffs would go a long way to get rid of some of the negativity surrounding this team in addition to whatever other benefits may come from a playoff appearance.

 

[Tigger]

With the team stagnating, however, that position reads as complacency.

Well I agree with what he said, that you can't panic or change the course based on 10 or 12 days of the playing year. That aside, I kind of doubt it was 1.05 on a dollar in the Leafs case, more like 3 to 1 with 29% interest on a meaningful deal and the Leafs just aren't in a position to give away talent like that.

Nothing I've heard would have made the team better now, futures are uncertain and cost was high, I don't see that as a complacent view but rather a good read of the market. His PC might have come off as somewhat resigned to the situation and spinning in the best interest of the team but I think you can be overly picky when it just doesn't make sense. I mean why would a GM look to sign a free agent for more than market value? Why would he look to make a trade that makes the team worse? ( if that's his view )

It's not like all his trades are looked at as being one way when they happen either, he took a financial risk in the Lupul trade, turned out well but no-one had that pegged the way it played out, Gardiner wasn't a known commodity by any stretch at that point.

Standing pat might be a failure in the short term but I think the long term was well served today.

 

[Kin]

Well I agree with what he said, that you can't panic or change the course based on 10 or 12 days of the playing year.

Again, that would resonate if this were the Rangers or Canucks having a bad couple of weeks but the Leafs have been a largely mediocre team this whole year.

Why would he look to make a trade that makes the team worse? ( if that's his view )

But Teams make trades all the time that could end up worse for them. Teams make trades that make them worse in the long term, teams make trades that make them worse in the short term.

It's not like all his trades are looked at as being one way when they happen either, he took a financial risk in the Lupul trade, turned out well but no-one had that pegged the way it played out, Gardiner wasn't a known commodity by any stretch at that point.

But nobody looked at the Gardiner trade as being particularly risky. The only thing the Leafs gave up was a defenseman that people weren't especially happy with anyway. The worst case scenario was that Gardiner was a dud and they had to think about sending Lupul to the Marlies but nobody was crying because Beauchemin was shipped out of town.

There's no other way to look at what Burke's done this year and not say that he's seemingly happy with how things have shaken out. Unhappy GM's make trades to shake things up. Unhappy GM's do not give their coach's extensions. There's no credible way to read this other than as a comfort with mediocrity.

 

[Kin]

I also agree with that. I actually like that he won't go and blow his brains out just because he can, or that the opportunity presents itself. I'm sure he could have landed Nash today, but I also think that would have been a really bad move for the franchise tomorrow.

There's no need to paint a false dichotomy where there's either standing pat or taking a hand grenade to the team. Even if Burke had made a deal like Gardiner, Kadri, Colborne and a 1st for Nash it's not abandoning development. It's not the Leetch or Nolan trade.

I'm not necessarily advocating that deal specifically, that's kind of a one end of the spectrum deal. There were ways to shake this team up without signifying a drastic change of position.

 

[Deebo]

I also agree with that. I actually like that he won't go and blow his brains out just because he can, or that the opportunity presents itself. I'm sure he could have landed Nash today, but I also think that would have been a really bad move for the franchise tomorrow.

There's no need to paint a false dichotomy where there's either standing pat or taking a hand grenade to the team. Even if Burke had made a deal like Gardiner, Kadri, Colborne and a 1st for Nash it's not abandoning development. It's not the Leetch or Nolan trade.

I'm not necessarily advocating that deal specifically, that's kind of a one end of the spectrum deal. There were ways to shake this team up without signifying a drastic change of position.

I'm just trying to clarify your position, is change for the sake of change is what you are advocating?

 

[Kin]

I'm just trying to clarify your position, is change for the sake of change is what you are advocating?

In a way. But a lateral move talent wise can improve you in other areas. Just a for instance you could spend defense depth to improve the team's veteran presence.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

There's no need to paint a false dichotomy where there's either standing pat or taking a hand grenade to the team. Even if Burke had made a deal like Gardiner, Kadri, Colborne and a 1st for Nash it's not abandoning development. It's not the Leetch or Nolan trade.

I'm not necessarily advocating that deal specifically, that's kind of a one end of the spectrum deal. There were ways to shake this team up without signifying a drastic change of position.

I'm not trying to paint that picture, Howsen said that price was very high in that instance. It would have been a deal much like you say and that, to me, is blowing your brains out IMO. We would have been in a position where we might have had Nash, but then we still would have had to go out and land a big time center also, same problem we now have.

We don't know what was available really, so you kind of have to take Burke's word for it. Most were saying that the prices were too high and the day's activity pretty much painted that picture. I have a hard time believing that Burke wouldn't have made a move if it would have benefited the team and not just stood pat, because of some hard stance he has about deadline day.

 

[Frank E]

Were there any deals that people here wished Burke was in on today?

No. But the consensus seems to be the prices were too high today. Burke, I think, was uniquely situated to say "Eh, I've got to get something done anyway."

I've got to agree with Nik here...this team needs a shake-up.  Even if the price of entry was high, the price of doing nothing may very well be greater.

There's no sure-thing solution here, but this smells of complacency even if it was calculated...sometimes even the perception is damning, and I think there will be pretty deserved criticism at the end of the year.

Sometimes you just need to act.

 

[Kin]

I'm not trying to paint that picture, Howsen said that price was very high in that instance. It would have been a deal much like you say and that, to me, is blowing your brains out IMO. We would have been in a position where we might have had Nash, but then we still would have had to go out and land a big time center also, same problem we now have.

But that assumes Nash was the only option there. Other people have reported that there were deals on the table where the Leafs would have been more sellers than buyers that would have accomplished the shake-up too.

To an extent though, you're right. Making a move like that would have left the Leafs with many of the same problems they face right now. But my argument isn't that they could have solved all of their problems today. Just that they could have addressed the fact that the team appears to be stagnating.

We don't know what was available really, so you kind of have to take Burke's word for it.

I really don't. I would if he'd delivered the results that would deserve that kind of faith but right now his track record in improving the team is dicey.

 

[Tigger]

Well I agree with what he said, that you can't panic or change the course based on 10 or 12 days of the playing year.

Again, that would resonate if this were the Rangers or Canucks having a bad couple of weeks but the Leafs have been a largely mediocre team this whole year.

So what's the panacea to that? One trade deadline won't make the Leafs not a bubble team if there's even a deal out there to be made.

Why would he look to make a trade that makes the team worse? ( if that's his view )

But Teams make trades all the time that could end up worse for them. Teams make trades that make them worse in the long term, teams make trades that make them worse in the short term.

So? Burke should make a trade just to make one and damned the torpedos? Again there isn't really anything in the last 8 weeks in terms of actual deals that I'm upset about, Gardiner and 1st for Carter? I'd be upset about that.

There's no other way to look at what Burke's done this year and not say that he's seemingly happy with how things have shaken out. Unhappy GM's make trades to shake things up. Unhappy GM's do not give their coach's extensions. There's no credible way to read this other than as a comfort with mediocrity.

Smart GM's know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em too, I don't think he's comfortable with mediocrity, far from it, I think he's dealing with what's in front of him as best he can.

What lateral move was out there that would shake things up?

When Brian decided to remove some lame duck status from Wilson the team had a decent record in spite of losing their starter, experiencing a rash of injuries and being a one way bubble team. Wilson's fate was always going to be tied to making the playoffs, nothing should have changed there.

I mean you can go ahead and say he's happy with this but I bet you he really, really isn't. That's just a pov but nothing I've seen, read or heard has said anything to me other than this was a lose-lose year in terms of the trade deadline for the Leafs.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

But that assumes Nash was the only option there. Other people have reported that there were deals on the table where the Leafs would have been more sellers than buyers that would have accomplished the shake-up too.

Well, we'll probably not know the answer to that, but there was a 1st on the table for McArthur, that we know of and I don't think I do that deal, he is worth more to us IMO. I wouldn't have given up a 1st for the other players either. I'm sure he made calls on Brown and JVR, but Dreger made clear those players probably weren't moving anyway. I'm quite positive that the other dead weight I would have moved, they weren't getting calls on, or they probably would have been traded.

I really don't. I would if he'd delivered the results that would deserve that kind of faith but right now his track record in improving the team is dicey.

As compared to what? When he took the team over? Or last week? I thought overall, he improved the organization today, but that's me.

 

[Kin]

So what's the panacea to that? One trade deadline won't make the Leafs not a bubble team if there's even a deal out there to be made.

At some point it's making a move. That doesn't mean you wait around for the perfect deal to fall into your lap. It means biting the bullet and doing something you might not want to do under ideal circumstances.

Again, waiting for things to fall your way only works if you're comfortable where you are.

So? Burke should make a trade just to make one and damned the torpedos?

At some point yes. Unless he's happy with the way things are going.

What lateral move was out there that would shake things up?

Again, I can't pull these things out of thin air. 

When Brian decided to remove some lame duck status from Wilson the team had a decent record in spite of losing their starter, experiencing a rash of injuries and being a one way bubble team. Wilson's fate was always going to be tied to making the playoffs, nothing should have changed there.

That strikes me as revisionist. A lot of people before the season said that a slow start would have doomed Wilson. Then he extended him with a "decent" record. Now we're talking about Wilson maybe getting fired if the team doesn't make the playoffs.

Keeping Wilson on a short leash, firing him if the team began to free-fall in a crucial part of the season, that'd have been a credible alternative to making a trade just to shake things up. You can't choose neither and then say that Burke isn't happy with things.

I mean you can go ahead and say he's happy with this but I bet you he really, really isn't. That's just a pov but nothing I've seen, read or heard has said anything to me other than this was a lose-lose year in terms of the trade deadline for the Leafs.

Again, actions speak here. He's watched the same team I have all season and done nothing to improve it or even to change it significantly. He can put on his angry face all he wants but actual unhappiness would have manifested itself in a decision to alter things.

 

[Kin]

Well, we'll probably not know the answer to that, but there was a 1st on the table for McArthur, that we know of and I don't think I do that deal, he is worth more to us IMO.

But it's proof that deals were out there where the team would have done ok and there'd have been a pretty clear message.

As compared to what? When he took the team over? Or last week? I thought overall, he improved the organization today, but that's me.

In general. He's the GM of a team on pace for 86 points a year after they had 85 points and that has as many big questions(Goaltending, #1 centre, #1 defenseman) as they did when he took over.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

But it's proof that deals were out there where the team would have done ok and there'd have been a pretty clear message.

What? That we're giving up on the season? I didn't see one player moved today that I thought, wow, we should have been in on that, except Hodgson and I've already stated that I don't think that Gillis would have talked to Burke about that trade anyway.