The Brian Burke Thread

[Kin]

What? That we're giving up on the season?

MacArthur is on pace for 49 points. Dealing him wouldn't be "giving up on the season". Neither would Kulemin. It would be a clear message to the rest of the team that what they're doing, ain't enough. You trade MacArthur and call up Kadri, which is theoretically the plan at some point anyway, and at least nobody is accusing you of sitting on your thumbs while the team's season circles the drain.

 

[Tigger]

So what's the panacea to that? One trade deadline won't make the Leafs not a bubble team if there's even a deal out there to be made.

At some point it's making a move. That doesn't mean you wait around for the perfect deal to fall into your lap. It means biting the bullet and doing something you might not want to do under ideal circumstances.

Again, waiting for things to fall your way only works if you're comfortable where you are.

Or if you think it's going to make your team worse. Who's to say he's waiting for some paradigm trade, nothing that was done today suggests anything even slightly good for Toronto.

What lateral move was out there that would shake things up?

Again, I can't pull these things out of thin air.

I think that's what you're doing with Brians apparent comfort level, if you're saying you don't know what was out there then you just plain don't know. 

When Brian decided to remove some lame duck status from Wilson the team had a decent record in spite of losing their starter, experiencing a rash of injuries and being a one way bubble team. Wilson's fate was always going to be tied to making the playoffs, nothing should have changed there.

That strikes me as revisionist. A lot of people before the season said that a slow start would have doomed Wilson. Then he extended him with a "decent" record. Now we're talking about Wilson maybe getting fired if the team doesn't make the playoffs.

Keeping Wilson on a short leash, firing him if the team began to free-fall in a crucial part of the season, that'd have been a credible alternative to making a trade just to shake things up. You can't choose neither and then say that Burke isn't happy with things.

It's certainly not revisionist on my part, I said it all year long and so did others. You certainly can chose both and not be happy about the results and we've been down this road about Wilson before, we don't agree, so I'll leave it at that.

I mean you can go ahead and say he's happy with this but I bet you he really, really isn't. That's just a pov but nothing I've seen, read or heard has said anything to me other than this was a lose-lose year in terms of the trade deadline for the Leafs.

Again, actions speak here. He's watched the same team I have all season and done nothing to improve it or even to change it significantly. He can put on his angry face all he wants but actual unhappiness would have manifested itself in a decision to alter things.

That's you assuming there was something to be done to make the team better on balance, I don't see a lot of proof of that here. If it's change for the sake of change, agree to disagree, I don't see positive benefit in what transpired today for the Leafs and agree with standing pat, not because I'm happy with the team but because it served no purpose to make them better in any tangible way, now or down the road.

 

[jdh1]

Overall I'm happy with what Burke did today..he didn't bow to media pressure to make a splash like previous GM's did in the past.WE have to be patient and we will get a team that will be very good in the future...Thankyou Burkie.

 

[applecheeks]

Have all the threads you want.  It doesn't matter.  Bring in a different GM and then all that will happen is the creation of a new thread with a new name.  It should just be The <currrent GM> Thread and the Fire the <current coach> thread.  It's been *7* years.  Seven.  The only team that has been out of the playoffs longer is the Florida Panthers.

Seven years.  The last time that the Leafs made the playoffs was in 2004.  Nazem Kadri wasn't even close to the OHL at that point. 

I just don't get it.  Call it pessimism, call it doom and gloom, call it whatever you want to call it, but I don't see how firing someone and hiring someone new is going to fix this.  The whole freakin' organization stinks.  Conn Smyth is rolling in his grave and rightfully so.

If a management team that consists of 2 GM's can't fix this team, then really what hope do the Leafs have other than getting lucky.  And they aren't lucky.

How does this happen?  How does a team that has the resources that the Leafs have end up like this?  How is it in the past four decades the Leafs have had two decades of the 4 where they have been absolutely dreadful?

I don't get it.  I just don't understand it.

....you had me at the two failing GM?s.  bang ON.

 

[Kin]

Or if you think it's going to make your team worse. Who's to say he's waiting for some paradigm trade, nothing that was done today suggests anything even slightly good for Toronto.

But a deal at the deadline is a last resort. If he'd aggressively pursued the best FA's available or held his coach on a short leash he wouldn't be faced with a situation where making a deadline deal would have been his last chance to do something to give the impression that he gives a damn about this season.

I think that's what you're doing with Brians apparent comfort level, if you're saying you don't know what was out there then you just plain don't know. 

No, I'm gauging his comfort level by the fact that he hasn't done anything.

And of course I don't know. None of us do. It's why it's a pointless avenue. Do you know what may have been out there if Burke made Phaneuf available? No? Then how do you know how it would have played out on balance?

It's certainly not revisionist on my part, I said it all year long and so did others. You certainly can chose both and not be happy about the results and we've been down this road about Wilson before, we don't agree, so I'll leave it at that.

But we're talking about Burke here, not you. Choosing to give Wilson the entire year, and extending him even, is as big a thumbs up as you can give a coach. There were a lot of decisions Burke could have made re: Wilson that would have indicated he wasn't onboard the mediocrity train. He's made none of them.

That's you assuming there was something to be done to make the team better on balance...

No. That's me saying that at some point you have to act in order to give the impression that you don't think things are A-1 super.

 

[Frank E]

That's you assuming there was something to be done to make the team better on balance...

No. That's me saying that at some point you have to act in order to give the impression that you don't think things are A-1 super.

Nail on head.

 

[Jalili]

What? That we're giving up on the season?

MacArthur is on pace for 49 points. Dealing him wouldn't be "giving up on the season". Neither would Kulemin. It would be a clear message to the rest of the team that what they're doing, ain't enough. You trade MacArthur and call up Kadri, which is theoretically the plan at some point anyway, and at least nobody is accusing you of sitting on your thumbs while the team's season circles the drain.

This is exactly what I thought when reading that someone was offering a 1st for MacArthur. Promote Kadri/Frattin to the 2nd line, and use that mid-late 1st as a chip to move up as high as possible at the draft.

 

[Tigger]

Or if you think it's going to make your team worse. Who's to say he's waiting for some paradigm trade, nothing that was done today suggests anything even slightly good for Toronto.

But a deal at the deadline is a last resort. If he'd aggressively pursued the best FA's available or held his coach on a short leash he wouldn't be faced with a situation where making a deadline deal would have been his last chance to do something to give the impression that he gives a damn about this season.

To me standing pat is about the long term, you've mentioned being unhappy they didn't get Richards before, can't think of another FA that mattered and having a coach on a short leash isn't always the best medicine but I can't speak for anyone else's perception.

It's certainly not revisionist on my part, I said it all year long and so did others. You certainly can chose both and not be happy about the results and we've been down this road about Wilson before, we don't agree, so I'll leave it at that.

But we're talking about Burke here, not you.

You brought up the revisionist notion then said  "A lot of people before the season said that a slow start would have doomed Wilson." ... you can't very well say that and tell me it's about Burke not me, well you can but it's meaningless then.

That's you assuming there was something to be done to make the team better on balance...

No. That's me saying that at some point you have to act in order to give the impression that you don't think things are A-1 super.

If you care what people outside of hockey think, sure. If that's the case I'm glad Brian didn't give in to that kind of pressure for pretty much zero reason.

 

[Mack674]

I'm with Nik in the boat that somehing had to be done simply because the status quo just isn't working. At all. Coaching change,lateral move,ship out kulemin for a pick, anything to convey a sense of " this isn't good enough".

Instead we got " Ahh what are ya gonna do".

I'm also at a loss for how this team has been so bad for long. It is beginning to feel hopeless and if/when this "rebuild" fails, ill be at my wits end.

Some people like to point out the Red Sox went forever without winning a championship and its not abnormal sure  but they actually made the playoffs and had competitive teams and came close in the championship round before finally bucking the drought.

What have we got, a couple conference final game 6 exits in 20 years ? Kill me now.

 

[Frank E]

If you care what people outside of hockey think, sure. If that's the case I'm glad Brian didn't give in to that kind of pressure for pretty much zero reason.

I keep jumping in here Tigger, I apologize if I'm butting my nose in, but from my perspective it's not about anyone outside of hockey...it's about the players and the coaches...those are the people who need the impression.

 

[Kin]

To me standing pat is about the long term, you've mentioned being unhappy they didn't get Richards before, can't think of another FA that mattered and having a coach on a short leash isn't always the best medicine but I can't speak for anyone else's perception.

And it's all of that nothing that adds up to what the Leafs have to show right now. Staying the course is a statement of comfort. There's no way around that.

You brought up the revisionist notion then said  "A lot of people before the season said that a slow start would have doomed Wilson." ... you can't very well say that and tell me it's about Burke not me, well you can but it's meaningless then.

You said that "Wilson's fate was always going to be tied to missing the playoffs". If you were just speaking for you, then that might be true but you've made it pretty clear that the only way you'd fire a coach is with Doc Brown's guarantee of future success.

If you care what people outside of hockey think, sure.

People outside of hockey, dopes though we are, can still read that link I gave you earlier in the day.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

If you care what people outside of hockey think, sure. If that's the case I'm glad Brian didn't give in to that kind of pressure for pretty much zero reason.

I keep jumping in here Tigger, I apologize if I'm butting my nose in, but from my perspective it's not about anyone outside of hockey...it's about the players and the coaches...those are the people who need the impression.

But would those players and coaches be better and have a good impression if Burke simply traded McArthur for a 1st? I think they may have been able to deal with it if he replaced McArthur with someone better, but not just dumping Mac for a pick. Doesn't make sense to me.
I think the GM has to think long term, especially with a young developing team. The Leafs were never going deep in these playoffs, regardless if they make it or not. I may be in the minority, but that is the way I see this season.

 

[cw]

Well, we'll probably not know the answer to that, but there was a 1st on the table for McArthur, that we know of and I don't think I do that deal, he is worth more to us IMO.

But it's proof that deals were out there where the team would have done ok and there'd have been a pretty clear message.

I don't know if the rumour for a 1st for MacArthur is 'proof' as I haven't seen solid evidence that particular offer got made but Burke did say that there were good deals out there where they could move a Leafs player for good future assets:
link

For me, signing a UFA like MacArthur this summer plus getting a 1st round pick now is greater than keeping MacArthur if the idea is to build up the franchise of talent to win a Cup.

If they were to sign a Parise or Semin UFA type this summer, at least one Leafs forward otherwise under contract is expendable - and likely would need to be dumped to make such a signing and keep them under the cap.

Clearly, Burke has decided to turn his back on that type of acquisition to give his current .524 win% squad a chance to make the playoffs = not something I would have done because I would rather improve my chances at winning a Cup with that future 1st rounder.

So we're back to "re-tooling".

If this roster fails to make the playoffs, then Burke agrees that they would have to look at doing more to the roster. To me, whether they're .561 and squeak into the playoffs or .524 and just miss, there isn't a lot of difference because it's abundantly clear that they sorely lack the elite talent required to win a Cup. In my opinion, they still need at least two of three elite players before they can seriously contend: a top goalie (not top 20 - closer to top 5-10), a Norris/stud dman and a franchise center. The best chance they have of getting one of those guys is by putting more lines in the prospect pool via good draft picks because no one is giving them away for free.

This reminds me of JFJ's tenure at the deadline in '06 when he wouldn't sell. Longer term, it may be a final fatal decision on Burke's chances of winning a Cup during his time in Toronto because he simply has not collected enough quality NHL talent at this point in time to be very likely to reach the top if he starts going for the playoffs and retards his rebuilding now.

Sorry to be so bleak but I've seen plenty of Leafs playoffs over the last 40 years. I'd rather pass on a playoff round to two for a better chance to win a Cup.

 

[Kin]

The Leafs were never going deep in these playoffs, regardless if they make it or not.

Yes or no, there are several teams that went deep in the playoffs the last few years that you would have said the same about before the playoffs?

 

[Tigger]

If you care what people outside of hockey think, sure. If that's the case I'm glad Brian didn't give in to that kind of pressure for pretty much zero reason.

I keep jumping in here Tigger, I apologize if I'm butting my nose in, but from my perspective it's not about anyone outside of hockey...it's about the players and the coaches...those are the people who need the impression.

No worries. If that's the case, and I'm not sure I'm seeing that in Nik's argument as it seems to be all about perception from outside, I'm far from convinced that a lateral move or a coaching change at this point will amount to much and I don't think it would speak to improving the team in the long run... but then that's my perception of the situation so what do I know.

Let's say they traded Mac for a 1st, I wouldn't have hated that but I don't see how trading away one of the few players that has played well recently who can score some goals is giving that kind of impression, fwiw, nor do I see much in the way of tangible benefit. They'd be getting a 1st for essentially nothing, so that'd be a tick in the column, but it might actually shorten their ability to be successful this year while being a longshot down the road.

 

[Kin]

Sorry to be so bleak but I've seen plenty of Leafs playoffs over the last 40 years. I'd rather pass on a playoff round to two for a better chance to win a Cup.

I agree in general and, as I've said, I don't even think making that MacArthur trade drastically reduces their chances of making the playoffs/making a run in those playoffs.

 

[Mack674]

Call me crazy but if your goal is to long term win a cup and you've got 1st rounders being handed out for gaustad, Its clearly an overpriced sellers market and I'm going to buy as many picks/prospects that I can.

Not just for the sake of doing it ,but would anyone have traded MacArthur for a 1st rounder in july? I would like to hope so.

Like Nik said, he's expendable anyway and is eventually most likely going to be replaced by frattin or kadri or someone in the system anyway.

Not building through the draft is just dancing around in circles.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Yes or no, there are several teams that went deep in the playoffs the last few years that you would have said the same about before the playoffs?

I saw two teams in the finals that were built for the playoffs. That's all that matters really.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Like Nik said, he's expendable anyway and is eventually most likely going to be replaced by frattin or kadri or someone in the system anyway.

I'd agree with you if Kadri and Frattin were ready to do that, but Kadri or Frattin haven't shown that at the NHL level yet. I'd be okay with trading Mac for that 1st if I knew that those two players were knocking at the door.

 

[Kin]

I saw two teams in the finals that were built for the playoffs. That's all that matters really.

So when Philly went deep into the playoffs, into game 6 of the finals behind Michael Leighton, you were the one guy in the world who saw that coming? Give me a break.