The Brian Burke Thread

[Mikhail Bloodnovsky]

Steve Thomas?  I don't remember if he played on a line with Sundin (I should also point out that I don't care if Sundin did or did not have a linemate who had a season as good as Lupul...but now I want to know for sure out of curiosity).

Great find, thank you.

Steve Thomas:

GP 78 G28 A45 P73 in 98/99

 

[Kin]

Steve Thomas?  I don't remember if he played on a line with Sundin (I should also point out that I don't care if Sundin did or did not have a linemate who had a season as good as Lupul...but now I want to know for sure out of curiosity).

I don't think so. I'm pretty sure Modin played with Sundin that year as opposed to Stumpy. Even if I'm wrong there Thomas was close but not quite there.

And, either way, that statement was more about the three post lockout years I'm referring to. Post-lockout with the more room Sundin had numbers that were either right there or better despite being in the twilight of his career.

But, regardless, I still have no idea what Sundin has to do with Kessel.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Steve Thomas?  I don't remember if he played on a line with Sundin (I should also point out that I don't care if Sundin did or did not have a linemate who had a season as good as Lupul...but now I want to know for sure out of curiosity).

I don't think so. I'm pretty sure Modin played with Sundin that year as opposed to Stumpy. Even if I'm wrong there Thomas was close but not quite there.

And, either way, that statement was more about the three post lockout years I'm referring to. Post-lockout with the more room Sundin had numbers that were either right there or better despite being in the twilight of his career.

But, regardless, I still have no idea what Sundin has to do with Kessel.

Yep, agreed on all fronts.

 

[Mikhail Bloodnovsky]

But, regardless, I still have no idea what Sundin has to do with Kessel.

Nothing really. This wasn't about lessening Sundin's achievements or anything. I just wanted to point out that the last person who scored more than 83 pts (that Kessel is on pace and will probably hit) was a future Hall of Famer.

 

[Kin]

Nothing really. This wasn't about lessening Sundin's achievements or anything. I just wanted to point out that the last person who scored more than 83 pts (that Kessel is on pace and will probably hit) was a future Hall of Famer.

Alright. I mean the problem with the Sundin comparison is always going to be that Sundin did what he did in a league where nobody was scoring a lot and famously dragging terrible linemates around.

But either way, I don't think anyone should be disputing that Kessel is having a terrific season offensively.

 

[hockeyfan1]

Here's some history....

For all of the talk of Mats Sundin's inept linemates what is lost is that for a couple of seasons he formed a pairing to rival Phil Kessel and Joffrey Lupul. After signing with the Leafs Alexander Mogilny slotted on Mats Sundin's line and the results were about what you'd expect.

Alexander Mogilny led the Toronto Maple Leafs in scoring during the 2002/2003 season. What does that have to do with Mats Sundin? It was the only season during Sundin's time in Toronto that he wasn't Toronto leading scorer. Sundin finished with 72 points to Mogilny's 79, and missed eight games. Throughout all his years in Toronto, Sundin always played more than 70 games, and always scored 70 points or more. Fiercely loyal, and remarkably consistent.

Source:  PPP

 

[Kin]

Here's some history....

For all of the talk of Mats Sundin's inept linemates what is lost is that for a couple of seasons he formed a pairing to rival Phil Kessel and Joffrey Lupul. After signing with the Leafs Alexander Mogilny slotted on Mats Sundin's line and the results were about what you'd expect.

Alexander Mogilny led the Toronto Maple Leafs in scoring during the 2002/2003 season. What does that have to do with Mats Sundin? It was the only season during Sundin's time in Toronto that he wasn't Toronto leading scorer. Sundin finished with 72 points to Mogilny's 79, and missed eight games. Throughout all his years in Toronto, Sundin always played more than 70 games, and always scored 70 points or more. Fiercely loyal, and remarkably consistent.

Source:  PPP

Yeah, that's not true. But thanks all the same.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Nothing really. This wasn't about lessening Sundin's achievements or anything. I just wanted to point out that the last person who scored more than 83 pts (that Kessel is on pace and will probably hit) was a future Hall of Famer.

Alright. I mean the problem with the Sundin comparison is always going to be that Sundin did what he did in a league where nobody was scoring a lot

I don't know if the 'nobody was scoring many goals' thing is really all that it's made out to be compared to now.  These are the average goals per NHL game from Sundin's first Leafs season until current.  Sundin did play through a couple of the lowest scoring seasons in the last 15 or so years, but also a few of the highest scoring as well.  Now I don't know how big a difference some of these decimal point differences relate to in actual goals (or how to project it for an individual player), but it doesn't strike me as an overall big difference from Kessel's Leafs seasons so far and Sundin's Leafs seasons in terms of how many goals were being scored in the league.

95-96: 6.285
96-97: 5.831
97-98: 5.276
98-99: 5.266
99-00: 5.492
00-01: 5.513
01-02: 5.237
02-03: 5.309
03-04: 5.136
05-06: 6.050
06-07: 5.758
07-08: 5.440
08-09: 5.695
09-10: 5.531
10-11: 5.550

http://www.quanthockey.com/TS/TS_GoalsPerGame.php

(Assuming their numbers are correct, of course)

 

[Kin]

I don't know if the 'nobody was scoring many goals' thing is really all that it's made out to be compared to now.

Well, I think it's worth mentioning that at a glance, every pre-lockout season where Sundin was the team's #1 centre the leaguewide goals per game was lower than it's been in any of the last three seasons and in some cases by half a goal or more.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I don't know if the 'nobody was scoring many goals' thing is really all that it's made out to be compared to now.

Well, I think it's worth mentioning that at a glance, every pre-lockout season where Sundin was the team's #1 centre the leaguewide goals per game was lower than it's been in any of the last three seasons and in some cases by half a goal or more.

I can't remember accurately back to 95-96/96-97, but Sundin was outscoring Gilmour both seasons so I assumed he would have been considered the #1 centre....but alas there's not TOI stats for that far back.

I should add that I do not think Kessel is anywhere near the player Sundin was, and to go back to the original point, they really shouldn't be compared in this.  So maybe I've taken this too far...but it was interesting to actually look at the GPG for the league over those seasons.

 

[hockeyfan1]

I don't know if the 'nobody was scoring many goals' thing is really all that it's made out to be compared to now.

Well, I think it's worth mentioning that at a glance, every pre-lockout season where Sundin was the team's #1 centre the leaguewide goals per game was lower than it's been in any of the last three seasons and in some cases by half a goal or more.

I can't remember accurately back to 95-96/96-97, but Sundin was outscoring Gilmour both seasons so I assumed he would have been considered the #1 centre....but alas there's not TOI stats for that far back.

I should add that I do not think Kessel is anywhere near the player Sundin is, and to go back to the original point, they really shouldn't be compared in this.  So maybe I've taken this too far...but it was interesting to actually look at the GPG for the league over those seasons.

How can he be?  Maybe over time will tell, but right now, it's doubtful.

 

[McPwnage]

Brian Burke needs to be fired immediately.  He has made some good trades like the Phaneuf and Gardiner deals, but he should have done a proper rebuild and the Kessel trade was really, really bad.

His bad moves have far outnumbered his good moves unfortunately.  I was excited when the Leafs signed him, but at this point I'm frustrated and it's obvious that his efforts have been misguided.

I agree with Don Cherry - we need more Ontario born players on the team.

So the gameplan for success is

step 1: get ontario born players on the team
step 2: ?????
step 3: win

nice, way to think for yourself

 

[Corn Flake]

Here's some history....

For all of the talk of Mats Sundin's inept linemates what is lost is that for a couple of seasons he formed a pairing to rival Phil Kessel and Joffrey Lupul. After signing with the Leafs Alexander Mogilny slotted on Mats Sundin's line and the results were about what you'd expect.

Alexander Mogilny led the Toronto Maple Leafs in scoring during the 2002/2003 season. What does that have to do with Mats Sundin? It was the only season during Sundin's time in Toronto that he wasn't Toronto leading scorer. Sundin finished with 72 points to Mogilny's 79, and missed eight games. Throughout all his years in Toronto, Sundin always played more than 70 games, and always scored 70 points or more. Fiercely loyal, and remarkably consistent.

Source:  PPP

Yeah, that's not true. But thanks all the same.

Which part isn't true, Nik?  The facts about Sundin and Moginly are accurate. 

Where is the lie?

 

[Bender]

Here's some history....

For all of the talk of Mats Sundin's inept linemates what is lost is that for a couple of seasons he formed a pairing to rival Phil Kessel and Joffrey Lupul. After signing with the Leafs Alexander Mogilny slotted on Mats Sundin's line and the results were about what you'd expect.

Alexander Mogilny led the Toronto Maple Leafs in scoring during the 2002/2003 season. What does that have to do with Mats Sundin? It was the only season during Sundin's time in Toronto that he wasn't Toronto leading scorer. Sundin finished with 72 points to Mogilny's 79, and missed eight games. Throughout all his years in Toronto, Sundin always played more than 70 games, and always scored 70 points or more. Fiercely loyal, and remarkably consistent.

Source:  PPP

Yeah, that's not true. But thanks all the same.

Which part isn't true, Nik?  The facts about Sundin and Moginly are accurate. 

Where is the lie?

*Insert witty remark followed by hasty exit.

 

[Kin]

Which part isn't true, Nik?  The facts about Sundin and Moginly are accurate. 

Where is the lie?

Well, there are a number of things that are wrong about it. For starters, its timeline is wrong.

After signing with the Leafs Alexander Mogilny slotted on Mats Sundin's line and the results were about what you'd expect.

Alexander Mogilny led the Toronto Maple Leafs in scoring during the 2002/2003 season. What does that have to do with Mats Sundin? It was the only season during Sundin's time in Toronto that he wasn't Toronto leading scorer.

The problem there, of course, is that Mogilny didn't sign prior to the 2002-03 season. He signed prior to 01-02. So if Mogilny got slotted with Sundin after signing it would have seen it's effect in 01-02.

Of course, that's not true. Sundin played with Hoglund/Renberg that year if memory serves.

But more to the point it's not even consistent with it's own internal logic.

After signing with the Leafs Alexander Mogilny slotted on Mats Sundin's line and the results were about what you'd expect.

But 02-03 was one of Sundin's least productive years with the Leafs. Why would those be the results anyone would expect if he finally got paired up with a winger who was firing on all cylinders?

But, again, it's kind of moot because Mogilny didn't play on Sundin's wing that year.

 

[Erndog]

I remember Hoglund-Sundin-Renberg and Roberts-Reichel-Mogilny.

I also remember MAD- Mats, Alex, Darcy.  That was the start of year 2... I believe we beat Pittsburgh opening night 6-0 was it?  Thats when the MAD line started.

Those were good times. 

 

[Tigger]

For some reason my brain remembers Mogs and Mats spending time killing penalties together but not lined up at even strength very often.

 

[Kin]

*Insert witty remark followed by hasty exit.

Ouch man. Just ouch.

 

[Kin]

I remember Hoglund-Sundin-Renberg and Roberts-Reichel-Mogilny.

For some reason my brain remembers Mogs and Mats spending time killing penalties together but not lined up at even strength very often.

Both of those things are correct.

 

[hockeyfan1]

For some reason my brain remembers Mogs and Mats spending time killing penalties together but not lined up at even strength very often.

Both of those things are correct.

A more accurate historical tidbit (Mogilny/Sundin)...

Sundin, Mogilny set to shine
Wednesday, 02.10.2002 / 12:00 AM / News
Toronto Maple Leafs
by John McCauley

TORONTO -- GM/coach Pat Quinn has unveiled his plan to get to the most out of his two most dominate offensive players -- put them together.

Mats Sundin and Alex Mogilny will start the season on the same line and be given enough time to gel. The two played together on the power play last season but played with one another sparingly at even strength .

Source: MapleLeafs.com