The Brian Burke Thread

[Bender]

oj, this may come as a surprise to you, but not everyone shares your opinion that Phaneuf is the worst defenseman in the NHL.

I like the trade. He brought in a good offensive defensman (currently 11th in the league in scoring for D) and a good prospect (Aulie.) Concurrently, he got rid of two players who weren't going to amount to much and weren't doing much (Hagman and Stajan). Giving up White was the tough part, but something of quality had to go back.

When have I ever said I think Dion is a bad Dman? I would like having Dion on this team if he wasn't getting paid anymore than 4 mil a year. He's a 45-50 point Dman who is just average or a bit above average in his own end. He's nowhere near worth 6.5 mil and at the time it added another greatly overpaid under performing Dman to a D group that was already greatly overpaid and underperforming with the additions of Beauch and Komi.

Out of curiosity, what can you see Phaneuf getting in his next deal? I agree he's around $4 to $4.5 (allowing for usual GM insanity). I can almost guarantee he'll be in the high 5.5+ range if he stays with the Leafs which he probably will as they'll pay him the most.

Depends if Burke is still around, if he is I don't see him signing Phaneuf for a lot lower than he brought him in for because of Burke's ego.

Or, you know, that's the going rate to retain their services. Liles has a lower cap hit going forward than when we brough him IIRC.

You can't compare Liles and Phaneuf, Phaneuf was a huge deal for Burke and was made captain right away.

Yeah, but you're not basing your argument on anything but disdain for Burke.

 

[ontariojames]

oj, this may come as a surprise to you, but not everyone shares your opinion that Phaneuf is the worst defenseman in the NHL.

I like the trade. He brought in a good offensive defensman (currently 11th in the league in scoring for D) and a good prospect (Aulie.) Concurrently, he got rid of two players who weren't going to amount to much and weren't doing much (Hagman and Stajan). Giving up White was the tough part, but something of quality had to go back.

When have I ever said I think Dion is a bad Dman? I would like having Dion on this team if he wasn't getting paid anymore than 4 mil a year. He's a 45-50 point Dman who is just average or a bit above average in his own end. He's nowhere near worth 6.5 mil and at the time it added another greatly overpaid under performing Dman to a D group that was already greatly overpaid and underperforming with the additions of Beauch and Komi.

Out of curiosity, what can you see Phaneuf getting in his next deal? I agree he's around $4 to $4.5 (allowing for usual GM insanity). I can almost guarantee he'll be in the high 5.5+ range if he stays with the Leafs which he probably will as they'll pay him the most.

Depends if Burke is still around, if he is I don't see him signing Phaneuf for a lot lower than he brought him in for because of Burke's ego.

Or, you know, that's the going rate to retain their services. Liles has a lower cap hit going forward than when we brough him IIRC.

You can't compare Liles and Phaneuf, Phaneuf was a huge deal for Burke and was made captain right away.

Yeah, but you're not basing your argument on anything but disdain for Burke.

I think it's realism, I really can't see Burke re signing Dion for 4.5 mil and basically admitting he brought in a bad contract and that Dion didn't play anywhere near what he was worth. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty confident on that.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I think it's realism, I really can't see Burke re signing Dion for 4.5 mil and basically admitting he brought in a bad contract and that Dion didn't play anywhere near what he was worth. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty confident on that.

Phaneuf got that contract when he was one of the top defensemen in the entire league and it looked like he was only getting better. Burke wouldn't have been able to make that trade if he was worth the contract. He might not come out and say that his captain is overpaid, but he isn't stupid.

 

[sickbeast]

Are you guys actually still happy with Burke as GM?  I'm not.

 

[hockeyfan1]

Potvin 29's comment regarding Burke's failure is alittle too narrow for my liking.

We were promised:

truculence etc - Failed completely, Burke's team "runs" no one.

contender in less than 5 years - Failed absolutely, we are not even respectable and no playoffs is a hallmark

top priority is a 1st line centre - Failed failed failed

rebuilt the farm teams - Failed, it is improved but the Marlies do not have a 20 goal scorer

talent assessment - Failed absolutely, see: anything to do with Ron Wilson such as retaining him for this season, extending Wilson's contract, firing Wilson only after it was too late and, of course, crownuing wilson as the Leaf MVP in early December.

But wait, I'm not done... speaking of talent assessment, we have more 3rd liners than any two other teams in the NHL combined but we overpay royally for the whole damn lot.

Yet, at the trade deadline we did dick.

Then Burke mused about adding another Burke No Trade Zone 10 days before the rest of the league has its deadline.

UNFREAKINGBELIEVABLE!

Steve Simmons on-line column today pretty much sums up the success of the Burke administration.

Not one single lousy playoff game! NOT ONE!

We are as bad now (if not worse) as we were when Burke started.

Any other team would have canned this guy's keester a year ago.

A+1 assessment. It may have taken a Steve Simmons to say that, but yes, sadly, my dear Watson, it is true!

 

[Highlander]

Burke record:

Got rid of Stajen, White, Meyers and Hagman. The only one I hated to see go was White, but we got Phaneuf and Aulie (now Ashton). Phaneuf despite a lot of conjecture is a premiere defenceman (he proved that again last night in Tampa), Aulie hardly played and Ashton looked to me like a very bright light for our future.

Trades Francois Beachamen for Lupul and Gardiner, perhaps the greatest steal of all.

Acquires Steckler for a 2nd round pick. At the Forum last night he played big minutes, won faceoffs and actually directed play. He is a leader and a great addition.

Trades Lebda for Franson and Lombardi. Was anyone watching the game I was at. Lombardi can be a great one as well. Franson is perhaps the most solid defenceman on the squad.

Kessel, say what you will, at the time we needed a sniper and we got one whom again will only get better.. If he was paired with a Sundin type centre he would have scored 50 this year.

 

[Optimus Reimer]

Could it be that the players Burke brought in could not play under RW's system which was messed up?  The team now compared to when Burke came on board is much better so I cannot fault Burke for that.  I also do not fault Burke for making a big move at the trade deadline.  Looking at the deals that were made, I do not think Burke could have did anything more just because other GMs were playing hardball. 

I do find fault with Burke for sticking with RW as long as he did, for giving him the extension, then firing him.  It was in the first 20 games that the Leafs defensive system showed that it was weak and porous.  It was RW's inability to adjust and adapt to what other teams were doing to the Leafs to neutralize the speed on the Leafs team.  I was actually okay with the extension at the time, but I did not expect this team to win 2 out of 17 games.  I would have preferred if the extension was given at the end of the season, if indeed RW did deserve an extension.  Now Burke looks suspect since he canned a coach he just endorsed 2 months prior. 

 

[cw]

but the Marlies do not have a 20 goal scorer

Ryan Hamilton has scored 22 for the Marlies this year.

There are currently only 31 twenty or more goal scorers in the 30 team league - close to one per team average.

The Marlies currently have the 5th best win% in the AHL but it's defence (2nd overall, 1st on PK) that really got them there. Offensively they're 12th (above average) at 2.9 goals/game.

Adding Ashton, Frattin & Gardiner isn't going to hurt their playoff run of their offence (Frattin has 12 goals in 21 games there and Ashton has 20 AHL goals this year).

 

[ontariojames]

I think it's realism, I really can't see Burke re signing Dion for 4.5 mil and basically admitting he brought in a bad contract and that Dion didn't play anywhere near what he was worth. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty confident on that.

Phaneuf got that contract when he was one of the top defensemen in the entire league and it looked like he was only getting better. Burke wouldn't have been able to make that trade if he was worth the contract. He might not come out and say that his captain is overpaid, but he isn't stupid.

I know that Burke didn't think Phaneuf was playing like a 6.5 million Dman when he traded for him, but I'm assuming, as many others did when the trade was made, that Burke's thinking was by giving him a change of scenery and making him the captain that he'd get back to the level he was playing at before. It hasn't worked.

 

[Bender]

I think it's realism, I really can't see Burke re signing Dion for 4.5 mil and basically admitting he brought in a bad contract and that Dion didn't play anywhere near what he was worth. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty confident on that.

Phaneuf got that contract when he was one of the top defensemen in the entire league and it looked like he was only getting better. Burke wouldn't have been able to make that trade if he was worth the contract. He might not come out and say that his captain is overpaid, but he isn't stupid.

I know that Burke didn't think Phaneuf was playing like a 6.5 million Dman when he traded for him, but I'm assuming, as many others did when the trade was made, that Burke's thinking was by giving him a change of scenery and making him the captain that he'd get back to the level he was playing at before. It hasn't worked.

At the same time he seems to have rebounded after an awful year with a good 40pts. Maybe Carlyle's defensive system will help Dion not get burned as much by overpinching etc.

 

[Etiam Vultus]

but the Marlies do not have a 20 goal scorer

Ryan Hamilton has scored 22 for the Marlies this year.

There are currently only 31 twenty or more goal scorers in the 30 team league - close to one per team average.

The Marlies currently have the 5th best win% in the AHL but it's defence (2nd overall, 1st on PK) that really got them there. Offensively they're 12th (above average) at 2.9 goals/game.

Adding Ashton, Frattin & Gardiner isn't going to hurt their playoff run of their offence (Frattin has 12 goals in 21 games there and Ashton has 20 AHL goals this year).

Thanks, cw.  An excellent perspective on the Marlies.

 

[Kin]

I know that Burke didn't think Phaneuf was playing like a 6.5 million Dman when he traded for him, but I'm assuming, as many others did when the trade was made, that Burke's thinking was by giving him a change of scenery and making him the captain that he'd get back to the level he was playing at before. It hasn't worked.

I think the reason you're kind of wrong here is that if the next CBA looks like everyone assumes it will Phaneuf taking a bit of a haircut probably won't be seen as some sort of great insult or admission of failure. Burke's smart enough to simply play it off as the realities of the changing market or, better still, a sign of just how dedicated Phaneuf is to the Leafs that he's willing to sacrifice money to stick around.

 

[ontariojames]

I know that Burke didn't think Phaneuf was playing like a 6.5 million Dman when he traded for him, but I'm assuming, as many others did when the trade was made, that Burke's thinking was by giving him a change of scenery and making him the captain that he'd get back to the level he was playing at before. It hasn't worked.

I think the reason you're kind of wrong here is that if the next CBA looks like everyone assumes it will Phaneuf taking a bit of a haircut probably won't be seen as some sort of great insult or admission of failure. Burke's smart enough to simply play it off as the realities of the changing market or, better still, a sign of just how dedicated Phaneuf is to the Leafs that he's willing to sacrifice money to stick around.

Yes, in that case that's true. I wasn't thinking about the new CBA.

Out of curiousity, what do you think Phaneuf is worth right now?

 

[maplesyrup]

If it means anything to you, I think Phaneuf is close to 2 mil. per year overpaid. - No fault of his though.

 

[Mike1]

Its crazy with all the money that they spent on the front office, that they arent really better at all at judging talent & make alot of similar mistakes they did before when the front office was barren. The free agent signings border on embarassing. Connolly? Dupuis? Armstrong? Lebda? How about trading for Lombardi & Franson. Is Franson really so good that you take back a complete drag anchor? How about signing Liles for 4 more years & god bless Grabovski but 5.5 per season? This management isnt cutting it at all.

 

[Highlander]

Lombardi a drag anchor. I was at the Tampa game...he was one of our best players..as was Franson. Our drag anchor set ups Gardiner for his terrific rush and gave Crabb a goal.
Wish we had more heavy weight like him...

 

[Kin]

Out of curiousity, what do you think Phaneuf is worth right now?

It's a tough question because I think everyone has a different sense of what "worth" really is in the NHL. Some people are going to look at it in terms of what a guy might get as a UFA and some are going to try to equate dollars to value while still using FA signings as their guidelines.

What really complicates things is that a lot of FA deals have AAV's that are artificially low and kind of distort things. I mean, you can look at a guy like Christian Ehrhoff and say he got 4 million a year or you can look at Ehrhoff and say he got 40 million dollars with a big chunk of it upfront.

Personally I tend not to think in either of those terms because I think the market for UFA kind of artificially inflates player's worth and the idea that a player provides X value so he should make 5 million a year, well, things don't really work that way.

I think people would fixate a lot less on his salary if he were making 4-5 million per year or so but he'd probably be able to get more than that on a short term deal as a UFA.

 

[Bender]

Out of curiousity, what do you think Phaneuf is worth right now?

It's a tough question because I think everyone has a different sense of what "worth" really is in the NHL. Some people are going to look at it in terms of what a guy might get as a UFA and some are going to try to equate dollars to value while still using FA signings as their guidelines.

What really complicates things is that a lot of FA deals have AAV's that are artificially low and kind of distort things. I mean, you can look at a guy like Christian Ehrhoff and say he got 4 million a year or you can look at Ehrhoff and say he got 40 million dollars with a big chunk of it upfront.

Personally I tend not to think in either of those terms because I think the market for UFA kind of artificially inflates player's worth and the idea that a player provides X value so he should make 5 million a year, well, things don't really work that way.

I think people would fixate a lot less on his salary if he were making 4-5 million per year or so but he'd probably be able to get more than that on a short term deal as a UFA.

I think he'd probably be able to eke out a $5.5m deal.

 

[Kin]

I think he'd probably be able to eke out a $5.5m deal.

Yeah. If he got something along the lines of Grabo's deal it wouldn't stun me. If he got more than that, say, 5/30 I'd think it didn't reflect his value well but I feel that way about deals that get signed every free agent period so I can't rule it out.

 

[caver]

Its crazy with all the money that they spent on the front office, that they arent really better at all at judging talent & make alot of similar mistakes they did before when the front office was barren. The free agent signings border on embarassing. Connolly? Dupuis? Armstrong? Lebda? How about trading for Lombardi & Franson. Is Franson really so good that you take back a complete drag anchor? How about signing Liles for 4 more years & god bless Grabovski but 5.5 per season? This management isnt cutting it at all.

What is wrong with resigning Liles?