The Brian Burke Thread

[Kin]

Burke traded away his first round pick, and THOUGHT it wouldn't turn into a lottery pick, i.e. he thought the Leafs weren't as bad as they turned out to be.

And the thing that just always gets me about this is, I mean, when people say "Who could have predicted they'd be that bad" I mean...look at who was on the team the year before:

08-09 Leafs

I mean that is just a horrendous collection of players.

 

[Zee]

This may sound ridiculous, but to this day I say it all went downhill when Burke didn't sign the Sedins.

He flew to Sweden the day of free agency but the Sedins signed at the 12th hour.  They took a very good 5 year deal too, one that Burke for sure could have matched/beat.  Not one of those "lifetime contracts".

Anyways, from that point on, it was misjudged.  He then made the Kessel deal.  I'm pretty sure that had he signed the Sedins he wouldn't have made the Kessel trade.  OR even if he did, he would have the Sedins plus Kessel and for sure we wouldn't have been bottom 2.

People are going to laugh this off or dismiss it but I am pretty darn sure it all went downhill when the Sedins re-signed in Vancouver.  Even more reason to hate the Canucks.

I agree with you.  I remember when they were coming up to free agency and people were saying "would you give $6M each to the Sedins -- way too much".  At that point in time they hadn't blossomed into the league leading point producers they became right after those contracts.  I'm in the camp that, had he managed to snag those 2, and then pull off the Kessel deal, the Leafs would have been in great shape to even make the playoffs in that first season.

 

[Kin]

People are going to laugh this off or dismiss it but I am pretty darn sure it all went downhill when the Sedins re-signed in Vancouver.  Even more reason to hate the Canucks.

I wouldn't laugh it off or dismiss it but I'm not sure it's true in the sense that signing the Sedins was ever a major part of Burke's plans. I'm sure he would have liked to sign them and maybe even had a whopper of an offer for them but the way free agency works I doubt Burke had too much invested in such an unknown quantity.

 

[ZBBM]

I think this entire mess started with Burke misjudging the team when he first took over and made the Kessel trade.

I think that's becoming more and more the common line of thinking. It's also possible that Kessel was just one prong of a two or three (or more) pronged plan and the others just didn't happen.

That's the metaphor I've been looking for: Kessel's about as useful as a one-pronged fork.

 

[Tigger]

I don't know that they do things like...sign multiple free agents to long term deals.

Pittsburgh signed Palffy and Gonchar in '05, they also signed a number of free agents in '03 though none so sexy.

Trading for Phaneuf was definitely not a 'traditional' rebuild move but I don't know that a ton more would have been accomplished dealing off the parts for picks and keeping White.

 

[Zee]

I think this entire mess started with Burke misjudging the team when he first took over and made the Kessel trade.

I think that's becoming more and more the common line of thinking. It's also possible that Kessel was just one prong of a two or three (or more) pronged plan and the others just didn't happen.

That's the metaphor I've been looking for: Kessel's about as useful as a one-pronged fork.

I don't understand why Kessel is being thrown under the bus here.  He's a legitimate 40 goal scorer right now, he could become a 50 goal scorer given the right players to play with.  He didn't build this team, Burke did.  Kessel is a great player and he's only 25.

 

[Zee]

I don't know that they do things like...sign multiple free agents to long term deals.

Pittsburgh signed Palffy and Gonchar in '05, they also signed a number of free agents in '03 though none so sexy.

Trading for Phaneuf was definitely not a 'traditional' rebuild move but I don't know that a ton more would have been accomplished dealing off the parts for picks and keeping White.

Trading for Phaneuf and Giguere smelled of a sheer panic move on Burke's part because he had no first round draft pick and the team was garbage.  He thought he could immediately improve the talent on the team.  Phaneuf has had brief moments when he's played well, but he's not an answer right now.

 

[ZBBM]

I think this entire mess started with Burke misjudging the team when he first took over and made the Kessel trade.

I think that's becoming more and more the common line of thinking. It's also possible that Kessel was just one prong of a two or three (or more) pronged plan and the others just didn't happen.

That's the metaphor I've been looking for: Kessel's about as useful as a one-pronged fork.

I don't understand why Kessel is being thrown under the bus here.  He's a legitimate 40 goal scorer right now, he could become a 50 goal scorer given the right players to play with.  He didn't build this team, Burke did.  Kessel is a great player and he's only 25.

?

I said he's as useful as a one-pronged fork.  Which, absent any other tools, is really fairly useful.  You can eat of a lot of things with a one-pronged fork, but you can eat even more with a fully-pronged one.

 

[Zee]

I think this entire mess started with Burke misjudging the team when he first took over and made the Kessel trade.

I think that's becoming more and more the common line of thinking. It's also possible that Kessel was just one prong of a two or three (or more) pronged plan and the others just didn't happen.

That's the metaphor I've been looking for: Kessel's about as useful as a one-pronged fork.

I don't understand why Kessel is being thrown under the bus here.  He's a legitimate 40 goal scorer right now, he could become a 50 goal scorer given the right players to play with.  He didn't build this team, Burke did.  Kessel is a great player and he's only 25.

?

I said he's as useful as a one-pronged fork.  Which, absent any other tools, is really fairly useful.  You can eat of a lot of things with a one-pronged fork, but you can eat even more with a fully-pronged one.

Sorry, I thought you were downplaying him in that a one-pronged fork isn't very useful.  Didn't understand the expression, my bad.

 

[Kin]

Pittsburgh signed Palffy and Gonchar in '05, they also signed a number of free agents in '03 though none so sexy.

Well, yeah, but in '05 they were coming off a four year stretch of drafting 5, 1, 2, 1, had a brand new cap floor to hit and had just drafted a guy hailed as the next gretzky who was expected to step in right away and be a big deal. I think it's safe to say they were firmly in the middle of that process.

Trading for Phaneuf was definitely not a 'traditional' rebuild move but I don't know that a ton more would have been accomplished dealing off the parts for picks and keeping White.

Looked at individually? Maybe not. But in connection to the Kessel deal? Then you're talking about what that Hamilton pick might be if they'd been significantly worse last year.

 

[ZBBM]

I think this entire mess started with Burke misjudging the team when he first took over and made the Kessel trade.

I think that's becoming more and more the common line of thinking. It's also possible that Kessel was just one prong of a two or three (or more) pronged plan and the others just didn't happen.

That's the metaphor I've been looking for: Kessel's about as useful as a one-pronged fork.

I don't understand why Kessel is being thrown under the bus here.  He's a legitimate 40 goal scorer right now, he could become a 50 goal scorer given the right players to play with.  He didn't build this team, Burke did.  Kessel is a great player and he's only 25.

?

I said he's as useful as a one-pronged fork.  Which, absent any other tools, is really fairly useful.  You can eat of a lot of things with a one-pronged fork, but you can eat even more with a fully-pronged one.

Sorry, I thought you were downplaying him in that a one-pronged fork isn't very useful.  Didn't understand the expression, my bad.

No apologies needed.  I was just having fun with a locution that usually denotes a criticism of total uselessness.

 

[Tigger]

I don't know that they do things like...sign multiple free agents to long term deals.

Pittsburgh signed Palffy and Gonchar in '05, they also signed a number of free agents in '03 though none so sexy.

Trading for Phaneuf was definitely not a 'traditional' rebuild move but I don't know that a ton more would have been accomplished dealing off the parts for picks and keeping White.

Trading for Phaneuf and Giguere smelled of a sheer panic move on Burke's part because he had no first round draft pick and the team was garbage.  He thought he could immediately improve the talent on the team.  Phaneuf has had brief moments when he's played well, but he's not an answer right now.

We could speculate on those moves all day long but I don't buy a panic aspect in there at all. I think they were looking to get rid of players that didn't want to be there, some that weren't in the plans and hoping to get some stability and maybe a young 'stud' dman that Phaneuf had shown glimmers of (he was never a 'complete' dman before that but there was no doubting his offense and physicality)

 

[Tigger]

Pittsburgh signed Palffy and Gonchar in '05, they also signed a number of free agents in '03 though none so sexy.

Well, yeah, but in '05 they were coming off a four year stretch of drafting 5, 1, 2, 1, had a brand new cap floor to hit and had just drafted a guy hailed as the next gretzky who was expected to step in right away and be a big deal. I think it's safe to say they were firmly in the middle of that process.

Sure but they still tanked it up enough to get Staal the next year.

Trading for Phaneuf was definitely not a 'traditional' rebuild move but I don't know that a ton more would have been accomplished dealing off the parts for picks and keeping White.

Looked at individually? Maybe not. But in connection to the Kessel deal? Then you're talking about what that Hamilton pick might be if they'd been significantly worse last year.

Yeah, ok, but what might have happened after though could be mitigated by other things as well but I'll grant the possibility of a Couterier... maybe even a Huberdeau (Huberdeau Huberdeau ) and see the team further ahead with young player talent but then we're getting into some chaotic waters.

As I said before, Kessel aside.

I'm certainly not saying it's been a full on traditional rebuild as that would be nonsense but it looks like it's been adjusted to me pretty fairly in that direction.

Something else for some to consider ( not you or anyone in particular really ) is that perhaps the management group had a look at the deadline offers of, for argument, a late first for MacArthur but weighed the value against the longer term plan, what they could do with it, and what having an actual 20 goal scorer might mean to their playoff drive.

I doubt MacArthur is significant consideration long term for the Leafs and they aren't stupid so there was some reason for what they didn't do.

I'd like to hear a candid thought on that from Dudley.

 

[Kin]

Sure but they still tanked it up enough to get Staal the next year.

Sure, but nobody is saying that in a traditional rebuild you never, ever bolster the team with free agency. Just that it's not something you do until you have the building blocks in place which, in Pittsburgh's case, they clearly did.

I'm certainly not saying it's been a full on traditional rebuild as that would be nonsense but it looks like it's been adjusted to me pretty fairly in that direction.

Well, yes and no. They've stopped making Kessel/Phaneuf like moves(sort of. They did add high priced talent in the off season) but they haven't addressed the actual point of the traditional rebuild in that the team hasn't really aimed at adding elite players through the draft. They've added good prospects and late round first rounders but that's not really the start of a traditional rebuild.

 

[ZBBM]

Does anybody think there's any chance of Burke getting turfed once the sale of MLSE is completed?  I doubt it, but I wouldn't rule it out either.  Looking at it objectively, he probably deserves to get fired.

EDIT: I predict a Damien Cox column calling for Burke's head within 48 hrs.

 

[maplesyrup]

Does anybody think there's any chance of Burke getting turfed once the sale of MLSE is completed?  I doubt it, but I wouldn't rule it out either.  Looking at it objectively, he probably deserves to get fired.

Like I said earlier, I think he deserves it too but I think his previous successes probably gives him an extra pass or two... and I think that's fair. He might not have any passes left now though. 

 

[Tigger]

Does anybody think there's any chance of Burke getting turfed once the sale of MLSE is completed?  I doubt it, but I wouldn't rule it out either.  Looking at it objectively, he probably deserves to get fired.

EDIT: I predict a Damien Cox column calling for Burke's head within 48 hrs.

In all likelihood he'll get a kick at the can for a whole season with Carlyle. I don't think he deserves to be fired now either, regardless of what they do.

 

[proteus2000]

No chance Burke gets canned in the offseason. He'll get one more offseason to improve the club, but if the Leafs start as porous as they finished this season, he'll be gone within 20 games. If they are mediocre but miss the playoffs, he'll be gone after next year.

All of the top 8 teams in the East will be tough to knock out of the playoffs next yr...and all of the teams that didn't make it have just as much of a shot as the Leafs to get in, looking at the talent pool. I don't see anything that differentiates the Leafs from the pack.

 

[Derk]

I think Burke will get another season at the very least - that will give Carlyle time to get these guys playing more cohesively. It could be that the Leaf players are very slow learners.

 

[Tigger]

I think Burke will get another season at the very least - that will give Carlyle time to get these guys playing more cohesively. It could be that the Leaf players are very slow learners.

They're also missing they're second best offensive weapon in Lupul and one of their best defensive players in Kulemin, to go with Liles' shadow and Komisarek's... well his Komisarekness.