The Brian Burke Thread

[Zee]

That's ridiculous, there's been criticism all over the internet of Burke, here included, from pretty much day 1.

Exactly, and that's another thing.

We don't have a player, coach, GM, anything that has been pretty much full embraced by Leaf fans and/or Leaf haters.  That's telling.

Sundin, although it took time, became universally embraced by Leaf fans (you're always, no matter what, going to have the odd detractor).  Other teams respected him, the media, fans, GM's, etc, all wrapped their arms around the guy.

Here?  Phaneuf, our captain, is critized left right and center.  Kessel, our best player, is seen as a soft, perimiter player by many, and the trade is going to follow him his entire career.  I feel for the guy, he's basically living in the shadow of a kid younger than him and not as good but it's been seen as a terrible deal by so many.

Our GM is pretty much hated by any non-Leaf fan. 

We don't have that any 1 guy that's universally embraced.  We can't hang our hats on anyone.  That's a telling state of where the franchise is currently at.

Further to your point I bolded above, I think there's a lot GMs around the league that don't particularly like Burke and would rather not make trades with him if at all possible.  He's a talker, and people like to see him go down and eat his words.  That's not good for the Leafs as a whole if other teams are looking to stick it to your GM.

 

[Tigger]

I get it from a standpoint, but what does it really leave the Leafs with?

Like I said, in my mind, a better overall player with longer term.

Just so I have you right, you're advocating trading a lottery pick and Kessel ( +? ) for Nash?

In principle, just Kessel + the pick (post lottery.) If it's 4/5 down... Yes. Maybe it would need to be massaged a bit but yes, I'd deal those two assets for Nash.

Wow. I wouldn't mind the Leafs picking up Nash but not like that.

 

[Kin]

He said just looking at the top 10 scorers (he arbitraily picked that number).... every single one of those guys is embraced, respected, well loved by their teams' fans, other teams, etc.  There is no debating them really.  Their teams wouldn't even consider trading them.  Giroux, Stamkos, Malkin, Tavares, etc....

Really? Ottawa wouldn't even think about trading Spezza? Kovalchuk is universally embraced? How things change.

It's a weird year for scoring leaders. Usually there are guys in the top scorers who get criticism for their overall play. Don't believe me? How much money would you give Alex Semin as a UFA?

 

[pnjunction]

In principle, just Kessel + the pick (post lottery.) If it's 4/5 down... Yes. Maybe it would need to be massaged a bit but yes, I'd deal those two assets for Nash.

Holy crap that would basically leave us at 3 first rounders and a high 2nd round for one Rick Nash.  Not a winning formula.  I'd take Seguin over Nash already the other picks just pile up in the loss column.

However this is exactly the type of crap I'm worried that Burke will do.  A few losing years later we look back at that as yet another 1st squandered.

 

[maplesyrup]

In principle, just Kessel + the pick (post lottery.) If it's 4/5 down... Yes. Maybe it would need to be massaged a bit but yes, I'd deal those two assets for Nash.

Holy crap that would basically leave us at 3 first rounders and a high 2nd round for one Rick Nash.  Not a winning formula.  I'd take Seguin over Nash already the other picks just pile up in the loss column.

However this is exactly the type of crap I'm worried that Burke will do.  A few losing years later we look back at that as yet another 1st squandered.

You can't look at it that way though. Your'e trading away your asset(s.) Not the assets(s) you previously traded away.

 

[Erndog]

He said just looking at the top 10 scorers (he arbitraily picked that number).... every single one of those guys is embraced, respected, well loved by their teams' fans, other teams, etc.  There is no debating them really.  Their teams wouldn't even consider trading them.  Giroux, Stamkos, Malkin, Tavares, etc....

Really? Ottawa wouldn't even think about trading Spezza? Kovalchuk is universally embraced? How things change.

It's a weird year for scoring leaders. Usually there are guys in the top scorers who get criticism for their overall play. Don't believe me? How much money would you give Alex Semin as a UFA?

No, I don't think Ottawa would think about trading their best player (not named Karlsson).

Kovalchuk has come a long, long way.  Just see what Devils fans say about the guy.  He's well liked.

I don't know what you are getting at but if I was a GM I wouldn't even consider signing Semin unless he came very cheap.  Like... $4M on a 1 year deal cheap.

 

[Zee]

He said just looking at the top 10 scorers (he arbitraily picked that number).... every single one of those guys is embraced, respected, well loved by their teams' fans, other teams, etc.  There is no debating them really.  Their teams wouldn't even consider trading them.  Giroux, Stamkos, Malkin, Tavares, etc....

Really? Ottawa wouldn't even think about trading Spezza? Kovalchuk is universally embraced? How things change.

It's a weird year for scoring leaders. Usually there are guys in the top scorers who get criticism for their overall play. Don't believe me? How much money would you give Alex Semin as a UFA?

No, I don't think Ottawa would think about trading their best player (not named Karlsson).

Kovalchuk has come a long, long way.  Just see what Devils fans say about the guy.  He's well liked.

I don't know what you are getting at but if I was a GM I wouldn't even consider signing Semin unless he came very cheap.  Like... $4M on a 1 year deal cheap.

Of course not now, but there was plenty of "trade Spezza" talk before this season.

 

[maplesyrup]

I don't know what you are getting at but if I was a GM I wouldn't even consider signing Semin unless he came very cheap.  Like... $4M on a 1 year deal cheap.

Semin should do just as well (if not better than Hemsky)... and Hemsky got PAID!

 

[Kin]

Kovalchuk has come a long, long way.  Just see what Devils fans say about the guy.  He's well liked.

Sure, but that's my point. The guys who are in the top 10 in scoring all have questions about them that were raised when their teams weren't doing well and I'm guessing just about anyone here would have echoed some of those sentiments about Spezza and Kovalchuk last season.

I don't know what you are getting at but if I was a GM I wouldn't even consider signing Semin unless he came very cheap.  Like... $4M on a 1 year deal cheap.

He was just an example of a guy who received criticism during years where he scored a lot of points.

 

[Erndog]

He said just looking at the top 10 scorers (he arbitraily picked that number).... every single one of those guys is embraced, respected, well loved by their teams' fans, other teams, etc.  There is no debating them really.  Their teams wouldn't even consider trading them.  Giroux, Stamkos, Malkin, Tavares, etc....

Really? Ottawa wouldn't even think about trading Spezza? Kovalchuk is universally embraced? How things change.

It's a weird year for scoring leaders. Usually there are guys in the top scorers who get criticism for their overall play. Don't believe me? How much money would you give Alex Semin as a UFA?

No, I don't think Ottawa would think about trading their best player (not named Karlsson).

Kovalchuk has come a long, long way.  Just see what Devils fans say about the guy.  He's well liked.

I don't know what you are getting at but if I was a GM I wouldn't even consider signing Semin unless he came very cheap.  Like... $4M on a 1 year deal cheap.

Of course not now, but there was plenty of "trade Spezza" talk before this season.

Because they were:

a)  Rebuilding... which leads to ...
b)  He's their best chip/asset to trade.


The Sens chose not to trade him even while rebuilding.  Leads me to believe they would not consider trading him (who knows about several years from now but certainly not in the forseable future).

 

[Zee]

He said just looking at the top 10 scorers (he arbitraily picked that number).... every single one of those guys is embraced, respected, well loved by their teams' fans, other teams, etc.  There is no debating them really.  Their teams wouldn't even consider trading them.  Giroux, Stamkos, Malkin, Tavares, etc....

Really? Ottawa wouldn't even think about trading Spezza? Kovalchuk is universally embraced? How things change.

It's a weird year for scoring leaders. Usually there are guys in the top scorers who get criticism for their overall play. Don't believe me? How much money would you give Alex Semin as a UFA?

No, I don't think Ottawa would think about trading their best player (not named Karlsson).

Kovalchuk has come a long, long way.  Just see what Devils fans say about the guy.  He's well liked.

I don't know what you are getting at but if I was a GM I wouldn't even consider signing Semin unless he came very cheap.  Like... $4M on a 1 year deal cheap.

Of course not now, but there was plenty of "trade Spezza" talk before this season.

Because they were:

a)  Rebuilding... which leads to ...
b)  He's their best chip/asset to trade.


The Sens chose not to trade him even while rebuilding.  Leads me to believe they would not consider trading him (who knows about several years from now but certainly not in the forseable future).

Read an interesting article comparing Brian Burke and Bryan Murray, and the notion that the Leafs were "2 years ahead" of Ottawa's rebuild according to Burke's own words to Murray.  They outlined their respective moves and how mostly things have worked out for Murray when he was under the gun just over a year ago.  He makes no hesitation in going out and getting goalies when he needs them, and lord knows Ottawa has had goalie issues in previous years.  They mentioned that there were calls to fire Murray even as late as last year and he managed to turn it around so there was "hope" for Burke.

 

[Erndog]

He said just looking at the top 10 scorers (he arbitraily picked that number).... every single one of those guys is embraced, respected, well loved by their teams' fans, other teams, etc.  There is no debating them really.  Their teams wouldn't even consider trading them.  Giroux, Stamkos, Malkin, Tavares, etc....

Really? Ottawa wouldn't even think about trading Spezza? Kovalchuk is universally embraced? How things change.

It's a weird year for scoring leaders. Usually there are guys in the top scorers who get criticism for their overall play. Don't believe me? How much money would you give Alex Semin as a UFA?

No, I don't think Ottawa would think about trading their best player (not named Karlsson).

Kovalchuk has come a long, long way.  Just see what Devils fans say about the guy.  He's well liked.

I don't know what you are getting at but if I was a GM I wouldn't even consider signing Semin unless he came very cheap.  Like... $4M on a 1 year deal cheap.

Of course not now, but there was plenty of "trade Spezza" talk before this season.

Because they were:

a)  Rebuilding... which leads to ...
b)  He's their best chip/asset to trade.


The Sens chose not to trade him even while rebuilding.  Leads me to believe they would not consider trading him (who knows about several years from now but certainly not in the forseable future).

Read an interesting article comparing Brian Burke and Bryan Murray, and the notion that the Leafs were "2 years ahead" of Ottawa's rebuild according to Burke's own words to Murray.  They outlined their respective moves and how mostly things have worked out for Murray when he was under the gun just over a year ago.  He makes no hesitation in going out and getting goalies when he needs them, and lord knows Ottawa has had goalie issues in previous years.  They mentioned that there were calls to fire Murray even as late as last year and he managed to turn it around so there was "hope" for Burke.

I'll agree however I think Murray has a luxury that Burke doesn't really have.

Murray's team sucked last year, however a large part of that was because of guys underperforming.

Gonchar and Kuba were atrocious (and booed repeatedly), Spezza was well below a PPG until the last 15-20 games or so (and only played in 62), Alffy was hurt and missed the last 30 games or so, Fisher/Kelly underperformed, Michalek had 18 goals all year last year and their is NO contest between Karlsson last year vs. Karlsson this year.

Fast forward a year, Gonchar and Kuba are playing MUCH better, Spezza is back to a PPG and healthy, Alffy is healthy, Karlsson has progressed to the point of being elite and Michalek will score close to 30.

I don't think the Leafs really have many guys underperforming like that.  Kulemin and Schenn absolutely... maybe Connolly a bit but that's about it.  In fact, I'd say Lupul actually overachieved this year and theres no guarantee he will be a PPG guy next year or revert back to his 50-55 point norm.

The best moves Murray made was the ones he didn't (i.e. not trade Spezza).

 

[Zee]

He said just looking at the top 10 scorers (he arbitraily picked that number).... every single one of those guys is embraced, respected, well loved by their teams' fans, other teams, etc.  There is no debating them really.  Their teams wouldn't even consider trading them.  Giroux, Stamkos, Malkin, Tavares, etc....

Really? Ottawa wouldn't even think about trading Spezza? Kovalchuk is universally embraced? How things change.

It's a weird year for scoring leaders. Usually there are guys in the top scorers who get criticism for their overall play. Don't believe me? How much money would you give Alex Semin as a UFA?

No, I don't think Ottawa would think about trading their best player (not named Karlsson).

Kovalchuk has come a long, long way.  Just see what Devils fans say about the guy.  He's well liked.

I don't know what you are getting at but if I was a GM I wouldn't even consider signing Semin unless he came very cheap.  Like... $4M on a 1 year deal cheap.

Of course not now, but there was plenty of "trade Spezza" talk before this season.

Because they were:

a)  Rebuilding... which leads to ...
b)  He's their best chip/asset to trade.


The Sens chose not to trade him even while rebuilding.  Leads me to believe they would not consider trading him (who knows about several years from now but certainly not in the forseable future).

Read an interesting article comparing Brian Burke and Bryan Murray, and the notion that the Leafs were "2 years ahead" of Ottawa's rebuild according to Burke's own words to Murray.  They outlined their respective moves and how mostly things have worked out for Murray when he was under the gun just over a year ago.  He makes no hesitation in going out and getting goalies when he needs them, and lord knows Ottawa has had goalie issues in previous years.  They mentioned that there were calls to fire Murray even as late as last year and he managed to turn it around so there was "hope" for Burke.

I'll agree however I think Murray has a luxury that Burke doesn't really have.

Murray's team sucked last year, however a large part of that was because of guys underperforming.

Gonchar and Kuba were atrocious (and booed repeatedly), Spezza was well below a PPG until the last 15-20 games or so (and only played in 62), Alffy was hurt and missed the last 30 games or so, Fisher/Kelly underperformed, Michalek had 18 goals all year last year and their is NO contest between Karlsson last year vs. Karlsson this year.

Fast forward a year, Gonchar and Kuba are playing MUCH better, Spezza is back to a PPG and healthy, Alffy is healthy, Karlsson has progressed to the point of being elite and Michalek will score close to 30.

I don't think the Leafs really have many guys underperforming like that.  Kulemin and Schenn absolutely... maybe Connolly a bit but that's about it.  In fact, I'd say Lupul actually overachieved this year and theres no guarantee he will be a PPG guy next year or revert back to his 50-55 point norm.

The best moves Murray made was the ones he didn't (i.e. not trade Spezza).

I think you left out the goalies, especially Reimer.  He was counted on to be the true #1 and couldn't do it.  Gustavsson had moments where he carried the team, but he was the victim of the quick-rope from Wilson and lost confidence at times. 

If Kulemin, Schenn, and a goalie can come around next year and perform like we believe they can, maybe the Leafs are better than they are?

 

[Erndog]

If Kulemin, Schenn, and a goalie can come around next year and perform like we believe they can, maybe the Leafs are better than they are?

Well, I think they would be better than they are sure, but by how much?  Tough to measure considering all 3 (Kulemin, Schenn, Reimer) were very good (if not excellent) last year and we still finished bottom 9.

I get the fact we've upgraded with Lupul and Gardiner as well but not sure how much of an improvement we'll really see overall.

 

[Tigger]

I think you left out the goalies, especially Reimer.

Agreed 100%, the Leafs weren't a very good team but if they enjoyed more than back up calibre goaltending from the starter we're probably not seeing Carlyle as a coach right now.

 

[pnjunction]

In principle, just Kessel + the pick (post lottery.) If it's 4/5 down... Yes. Maybe it would need to be massaged a bit but yes, I'd deal those two assets for Nash.

Holy crap that would basically leave us at 3 first rounders and a high 2nd round for one Rick Nash.  Not a winning formula.  I'd take Seguin over Nash already the other picks just pile up in the loss column.

However this is exactly the type of crap I'm worried that Burke will do.  A few losing years later we look back at that as yet another 1st squandered.

You can't look at it that way though. Your'e trading away your asset(s.) Not the assets(s) you previously traded away.

I know you can't look at individual trades that way, but you can evaluate a GM's series of mis-steps by the overall results.

BTW Kessel and our 1st for Nash is a terrible deal IMO regardless.

 

[maplesyrup]

In principle, just Kessel + the pick (post lottery.) If it's 4/5 down... Yes. Maybe it would need to be massaged a bit but yes, I'd deal those two assets for Nash.

Holy crap that would basically leave us at 3 first rounders and a high 2nd round for one Rick Nash.  Not a winning formula.  I'd take Seguin over Nash already the other picks just pile up in the loss column.

However this is exactly the type of crap I'm worried that Burke will do.  A few losing years later we look back at that as yet another 1st squandered.

You can't look at it that way though. Your'e trading away your asset(s.) Not the assets(s) you previously traded away.

I know you can't look at individual trades that way, but you can evaluate a GM's series of mis-steps by the overall results.

BTW Kessel and our 1st for Nash is a terrible deal IMO regardless.

As the general framework, I really don't think it is. We'd be getting the better player for a longer term.

 

[pnjunction]

In principle, just Kessel + the pick (post lottery.) If it's 4/5 down... Yes. Maybe it would need to be massaged a bit but yes, I'd deal those two assets for Nash.

Holy crap that would basically leave us at 3 first rounders and a high 2nd round for one Rick Nash.  Not a winning formula.  I'd take Seguin over Nash already the other picks just pile up in the loss column.

However this is exactly the type of crap I'm worried that Burke will do.  A few losing years later we look back at that as yet another 1st squandered.

You can't look at it that way though. Your'e trading away your asset(s.) Not the assets(s) you previously traded away.

I know you can't look at individual trades that way, but you can evaluate a GM's series of mis-steps by the overall results.

BTW Kessel and our 1st for Nash is a terrible deal IMO regardless.

As the general framework, I really don't think it is. We'd be getting the better player for a longer term.

Might be true if the trade were straight up, but I'm beyond sick of tossing out 1st rounders like candy on Halloween.

 

[maplesyrup]

In principle, just Kessel + the pick (post lottery.) If it's 4/5 down... Yes. Maybe it would need to be massaged a bit but yes, I'd deal those two assets for Nash.

Holy crap that would basically leave us at 3 first rounders and a high 2nd round for one Rick Nash.  Not a winning formula.  I'd take Seguin over Nash already the other picks just pile up in the loss column.

However this is exactly the type of crap I'm worried that Burke will do.  A few losing years later we look back at that as yet another 1st squandered.

You can't look at it that way though. Your'e trading away your asset(s.) Not the assets(s) you previously traded away.

I know you can't look at individual trades that way, but you can evaluate a GM's series of mis-steps by the overall results.

BTW Kessel and our 1st for Nash is a terrible deal IMO regardless.

As the general framework, I really don't think it is. We'd be getting the better player for a longer term.

Might be true if the trade were straight up, but I'm beyond sick of tossing out 1st rounders like candy on Halloween.

You know we have something like 7 first round picks from the last 4 drafts, right?

 

[Mikhail Bloodnovsky]

In principle, just Kessel + the pick (post lottery.) If it's 4/5 down... Yes. Maybe it would need to be massaged a bit but yes, I'd deal those two assets for Nash.

Holy crap that would basically leave us at 3 first rounders and a high 2nd round for one Rick Nash.  Not a winning formula.  I'd take Seguin over Nash already the other picks just pile up in the loss column.

However this is exactly the type of crap I'm worried that Burke will do.  A few losing years later we look back at that as yet another 1st squandered.

You can't look at it that way though. Your'e trading away your asset(s.) Not the assets(s) you previously traded away.

I know you can't look at individual trades that way, but you can evaluate a GM's series of mis-steps by the overall results.

BTW Kessel and our 1st for Nash is a terrible deal IMO regardless.

As the general framework, I really don't think it is. We'd be getting the better player for a longer term.

Might be true if the trade were straight up, but I'm beyond sick of tossing out 1st rounders like candy on Halloween.

You know we have something like 7 first round picks from the last 4 drafts, right?

Yes but it makes you wonder why the other teams gave up on those 1st round draft picks.