The Brian Burke Thread

[Tigger]

Franchise players can take a long time to find, especially if there's none in the system. That's what JFJ left him with.

If we're taking the 'season or 2' analogy seriously then acknowledging his success in Anaheim is fair game.

However, to suggest that he and JFJ are on an even plain as general managers is pretty off to me. I get the 'results' argument but I'm reminded of the number 37 and no, not the Kevin Smith reference...

 

[ZBBM]

Hence my statement "a season or 2."  As opposed to finger-snapping.

Ok, well, no GM can magically turn up a franchise player in a season or two either. For the most part it takes time, development and patience.

For better or worse, after that, it's "your" problem/success.  (That's the way it works in American presidential politics, BTW.)

And, clearly, if there's one place we should be looking for sane, rational criticism it's American politics.

Truly.

So you're saying that we have to give a GM, what, 3/4/5/6+ years before we can assign credit/blame?  That makes no sense at all.  What it comes down to is that you have to pull a number out of your hat, and whatever number it is will be every bit as defensible/indefensible as 1 or 2 years.

I'm just telling you, that's the way it is.  I'm not telling you to like it.

 

[Kin]

So you're saying that we have to give a GM, what, 3/4/5/6+ years before we can assign credit/blame? 

No. I'm saying that where a GM starts, what he has to work with, has to be a factor in our evaluation of what he's done and where he's taken the team. I don't think Burke is immune to criticism, I've criticized him plenty in this very thread. I'm saying that your criticism of him in comparison to JFJ is inherently flawed and the kind of argument that should be rejected by even the most trolling of Sports Talk Radio hosts for being shallow and facile.

 

[ZBBM]

So you're saying that we have to give a GM, what, 3/4/5/6+ years before we can assign credit/blame? 

No. I'm saying that where a GM starts, what he has to work with, has to be a factor in our evaluation of what he's done and where he's taken the team. I don't think Burke is immune to criticism, I've criticized him plenty in this very thread. I'm saying that your criticism of him in comparison to JFJ is inherently flawed and the kind of argument that should be rejected by even the most trolling of Sports Talk Radio hosts for being shallow and facile.

My fundamental criticism is comparing on-ice results: i.e., W-L records.  Not only is that not shallow and facile, it's the only comparison that counts in sports.  Unless you want to quit keeping score.

And in that comparison, Burke comes out the loser.  No amount of your argumentation can change that.

 

[Kin]

My fundamental criticism is comparing on-ice results: i.e., W-L records.  Not only is that not shallow and facile, it's the only comparison that counts in sports.  Unless you want to quit keeping score.

Well, when it comes to the question of something relatively complex as a GM's performance just looking at a straight W-L record is pretty much the definition of facile.

It's the only comparison that counts in sports? Alright, then is Alex Anthopolous a better or worse GM than Brian Cashman? By your "only comparison that counts" it's Cashman by miles. But anyone who would look at it for even the briefest of seconds would know that Cashman's won-loss record is as much a reflection of the resources he has to work with as it is his own performance at his job.

I mean, I'm not surprised that someone who thinks Chris Osgood is a no questions asked hall of famer is going to be that hung up on W-L record but it absolutely reflects a shallow understanding of how games are won and lost.

 

[ZBBM]

My fundamental criticism is comparing on-ice results: i.e., W-L records.  Not only is that not shallow and facile, it's the only comparison that counts in sports.  Unless you want to quit keeping score.

Well, when it comes to the question of something relatively complex as a GM's performance just looking at a straight W-L record is pretty much the definition of facile.

It's the only comparison that counts in sports? Alright, then is Alex Anthopolous a better or worse GM than Brian Cashman? By your "only comparison that counts" it's Cashman by miles. But anyone who would look at it for even the briefest of seconds would know that Cashman's won-loss record is as much a reflection of the resources he has to work with as it is his own performance at his job.

I mean, I'm not surprised that someone who thinks Chris Osgood is a no questions asked hall of famer is going to be that hung up on W-L record but it absolutely reflects a shallow understanding of how games are won and lost.

Nik, here's a bit of advice from someone who's been around the block many more times than you: when you are cornered in an argument, don't reflexively resort to ridicule in a desperate attempt to save face.  It doesn't increase anyone's respect for you.  I enjoy your posts and witticisms, but when you fall back on bad-tempered sophistry it's simply annoying.

 

[Kin]

Nik, here's a bit of advice from someone who's been around the block many more times than you: when you are cornered in an argument, don't reflexively resort to ridicule in a desperate attempt to save face.  It doesn't increase anyone's respect for you.  I enjoy your posts and witticisms, but when you fall back on bad-tempered sophistry it's simply annoying.

ZBBM, here's a bit of advice for you from someone who once ate 53 pieces of Sushi in one sitting on a bet. When you're having trouble with an argument, don't declare yourself to have the upper hand and reflexively try to guess at the motivations of the person across from you. Engaging in Ad Hominem simply reveals the weakness of your position and betrays a lack of ability to respond intelligently to a pretty simple argument.

And ridicule? I do not think that word means what you think it means.

 

[ZBBM]

Nik, here's a bit of advice from someone who's been around the block many more times than you: when you are cornered in an argument, don't reflexively resort to ridicule in a desperate attempt to save face.  It doesn't increase anyone's respect for you.  I enjoy your posts and witticisms, but when you fall back on bad-tempered sophistry it's simply annoying.

ZBBM, here's a bit of advice for you from someone who once ate 53 pieces of Sushi in one sitting on a bet. When you're having trouble with an argument, don't declare yourself to have the upper hand and reflexively try to guess at the motivations of the person across from you. Engaging in Ad Hominem simply reveals the weakness of your position and betrays a lack of ability to respond intelligently to a pretty simple argument.

And ridicule? I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Thanks for the case in point: real-world experience is not equal to a random act of absurdity.  It sounds like a valid argument, but it isn't: positing false equivalence is sophistry.  Look it up if you need to.

Later man.  When we meet again I hope you are in a better mood.

 

[Kin]

Thanks for the case in point: real-world experience is not equal to a random act of absurdity.  It sounds like a valid argument, but it isn't: positing false equivalence is sophistry.  Look it up if you need to.

Really? That casually tossed off joke sounds like a valid argument to you? You think I was making an argument by way of relating that? That, you see, absolutely was ridicule of your heavy-handed and imperious declaration of "having been around the block more than me".

But I get it. Everyone here thinks you're wrong. You're looking for an easy out. You wanted to make it personal with me to avoid the fact that nobody else thinks you've got a foot on the ground here. It's transparent and a little sad.

 

[ZBBM]

The one shot of the GM box I saw tonight, Burke was conspicuously absent.

 

[riff raff]

The one shot of the GM box I saw tonight, Burke was conspicuously absent.

During one shot, he appeared to be reading something.

Appointment book? Draft reports? Novel? Resume?

 

[ZBBM]

The one shot of the GM box I saw tonight, Burke was conspicuously absent.

During one shot, he appeared to be reading something.

Appointment book? Draft reports? Novel? Resume?

Hopefully it was a text from Tanenbaum asking him to come up to his office after the game for a "little chat."

 

[PG]

Burke's FA signings have been a disaster. Komisarek and Armstrong barely have any business being in the NHL anymore, let alone making a combined 7.25M (or whatever it is). Connolly is worth about half of what he's making. Gustavsson was a nice try, but again, that didn't work out either.

Colton Orr, Beauchemin, Lebda, Hanson....am I missing anyone?

Bozak has been decent but other than that, have any of his FA signings worked out?

Less time talking, more time improving pro scouting might help. Although I do truly believe Burke won't talk as much anymore. He knows the honeymoon is over. Loud, condescending bravado can't mask the fact that your team stinks.

 

[Jalili]

Burke's FA signings have been a disaster. Komisarek and Armstrong barely have any business being in the NHL anymore, let alone making a combined 7.25M (or whatever it is). Connolly is worth about half of what he's making. Gustavsson was a nice try, but again, that didn't work out either.

Colton Orr, Beauchemin, Lebda, Hanson....am I missing anyone?

Bozak has been decent but other than that, have any of his FA signings worked out?

Less time talking, more time improving pro scouting might help. Although I do truly believe Burke won't talk as much anymore. He knows the honeymoon is over. Loud, condescending bravado can't mask the fact that your team stinks.

I agree with everything you wrote except I look at it as an issue that goes beyond Burke, (he should certainly be held accountable though), and really more of an organizational issue of assessing talent.

I know that Burke likes to monikor the management staff theyve put together as being loaded with talent, but their performance so far has been pretty shoddy for the reasons you stated. I would leave aside the amateur scouting because they seem to do fairly well, but the fact that so many FA signings have flopped doesnt reflect well at all on the teams pro scouts.

 

[proteus2000]

Burke's FA signings have been a disaster. Komisarek and Armstrong barely have any business being in the NHL anymore, let alone making a combined 7.25M (or whatever it is). Connolly is worth about half of what he's making. Gustavsson was a nice try, but again, that didn't work out either.

Colton Orr, Beauchemin, Lebda, Hanson....am I missing anyone?

Bozak has been decent but other than that, have any of his FA signings worked out?

Less time talking, more time improving pro scouting might help. Although I do truly believe Burke won't talk as much anymore. He knows the honeymoon is over. Loud, condescending bravado can't mask the fact that your team stinks.

I agree with everything you wrote except I look at it as an issue that goes beyond Burke, (he should certainly be held accountable though), and really more of an organizational issue of assessing talent.

I know that Burke likes to monikor the management staff theyve put together as being loaded with talent, but their performance so far has been pretty shoddy for the reasons you stated. I would leave aside the amateur scouting because they seem to do fairly well, but the fact that so many FA signings have flopped doesnt reflect well at all on the teams pro scouts.

The leafs have seemed to do well picking off prospects on other squads in their trades, Gardiner being the most obvious talent. But their signings have been a disaster... Florida had to completely revamp their roster and did so through 8 FA signings and 3 major trades, and somehow they are better then the leafs.

 

[cw]

Florida had to completely revamp their roster and did so through 8 FA signings and 3 major trades, and somehow they are better then the leafs.

What's clever about what Tallon did is not so much with his NHL roster:
He has seven picks in the first three 2011 rounds from the firesale:
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00005763.html
on top of six picks in the first two rounds in the 2010 draft (10 picks in the top 4 rounds)

And from that, he's collected an excellent prospect group:
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/nhl_organisation_rankings/
- top rated by HF.

2010 1st rounders, Gudbranson & Kulikov, are the only real youngsters of note who played a number of NHL games this year.

What's likely to be more impressive is not so much the team we see in the NHL today but the team to come. And by having vets fill in while his prospects properly develop, he'll get a good bang for his cap buck when the prospects arrive.

Meanwhile, he's done it this year with the 10th lowest payroll in the league.

He did a fine job in Chicago and he's repeating that effort in Florida.

 

[Zee]

So when is Burke's year-end presser?  It's about time he comes out of hiding and faces the music.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

So when is Burke's year-end presser?  It's about time he comes out of hiding and faces the music.

Mirtle says tomorrow.

 

[L K]

So when is Burke's year-end presser?  It's about time he comes out of hiding and faces the music.

Mirtle says tomorrow.

I'm actually surprised it isn't going to be Wednesday morning, unless he's planning it after they know where the Leafs will draft.  Not that "hey, we won the lottery and get to draft 1st" would be much to hang your hat on with this disappointing season but man would it ever come across a little nicer than drafting 5th.

 

[KW Sluggo]

Burke's FA signings have been a disaster. Komisarek and Armstrong barely have any business being in the NHL anymore, let alone making a combined 7.25M (or whatever it is). Connolly is worth about half of what he's making. Gustavsson was a nice try, but again, that didn't work out either.

Colton Orr, Beauchemin, Lebda, Hanson....am I missing anyone?

Bozak has been decent but other than that, have any of his FA signings worked out?

Less time talking, more time improving pro scouting might help. Although I do truly believe Burke won't talk as much anymore. He knows the honeymoon is over. Loud, condescending bravado can't mask the fact that your team stinks.

You are quite correct, after Bozak there is a lot of sweet nothing on that list.

Your list of free agent failures ought to be more than enough to get any GM a ticket out of town.

Between Ferguson's trades and Burke's UFA signings, is there any doubt why this team is the disaster it is?

Then for Burke to get all maudlin about having to send Colton Orr to the Marlies, that is way too much to stomach.