The Brian Burke Thread

[Highlander]

JFJ had to do a rebuild without a clue as how to do it correctly and with some very bad advice. Hence our Goaltender of the future Rask, was lost without any real compensation and we have suffered for that since. Reimer is a good goalie but his concussion at the hands of the Hab's was not good for him or our season, as he never really recovered. We have to look at this all with a lot of perspective. In retrospect, Burke has made a lot of great trades and acquisitions, I think all of us would agree on this. He has stocked the cupboard for the future, in a way JFJ could not.
It does take time to build a contender and of course we are all more than a little impatient that this has not happen yet.
In an earlier post this season, I thought that the bad play of Kulimen was caused perhaps by the death of his best friend and mentor, Korolov, in the horrific plane crash. The human mind is indeed a fertile field especially when tragedy happens. Many of you understood this and agreed this is something for consideration.
Something more for us to consider, we have the 2nd youngest team in hockey. Perhaps Ron was not the greatest coach for them, we will never know for sure. The thing is that playing in Toronto (sorry I always think Maple Leaf Gardens), is the toughest gig in the hockey universe.
Discerning fans, the hardest crowd of all. Expectations beyond belief and a lot of years since the Cup, it does drive one to think, how long?  But I put it to you that this team with the needed few additions, will compete and win at some point soon. Belief is a very strange thing, you believe you can't, you won't, and when the corner is turned and with the belief that you can, miracles happen. And it is all in chemistry and in the parts of the puzzle that Burke is trying and I believe he will sort. We have to understand that this bunch of very young guys playing at the "Gardens" wants to win as much as want them too. And every other team coming to T.O. to play on a Saturday night, realize that they are in the Vatican of hockey and want to play fantastic for their folks and family watching across this great country.
Yes, we deserve better but it is not Burke's fault or his associates and advisors, they are rebuilding after 50 years of inheriting the worst run team in sports. We have the best minds in hockey trying to put the pieces in place. And for the first time since the first incarnation of Punch do we have the right GM in place.
I have been at this for over 50 years through good and bad (and that means Cups and many, many bad years) and this is the first time since Ballard took over that I feel at least the stars will align and when they do, we will all be more than ecstatic.
Just had to get this one out.

 

[Knobby]

Well done!

 

[hockeyfan1]

JFJ had to do a rebuild without a clue as how to do it correctly and with some very bad advice. Hence our Goaltender of the future Rask, was lost without any real compensation and we have suffered for that since. Reimer is a good goalie but his concussion at the hands of the Hab's was not good for him or our season, as he never really recovered. We have to look at this all with a lot of perspective. In retrospect, Burke has made a lot of great trades and acquisitions, I think all of us would agree on this. He has stocked the cupboard for the future, in a way JFJ could not.
It does take time to build a contender and of course we are all more than a little impatient that this has not happen yet.
In an earlier post this season, I thought that the bad play of Kulimen was caused perhaps by the death of his best friend and mentor, Korolov, in the horrific plane crash. The human mind is indeed a fertile field especially when tragedy happens. Many of you understood this and agreed this is something for consideration.
Something more for us to consider, we have the 2nd youngest team in hockey. Perhaps Ron was not the greatest coach for them, we will never know for sure. The thing is that playing in Toronto (sorry I always think Maple Leaf Gardens), is the toughest gig in the hockey universe.
Discerning fans, the hardest crowd of all. Expectations beyond belief and a lot of years since the Cup, it does drive one to think, how long?  But I put it to you that this team with the needed few additions, will compete and win at some point soon. Belief is a very strange thing, you believe you can't, you won't, and when the corner is turned and with the belief that you can, miracles happen. And it is all in chemistry and in the parts of the puzzle that Burke is trying and I believe he will sort. We have to understand that this bunch of very young guys playing at the "Gardens" wants to win as much as want them too. And every other team coming to T.O. to play on a Saturday night, realize that they are in the Vatican of hockey and want to play fantastic for their folks and family watching across this great country.
Yes, we deserve better but it is not Burke's fault or his associates and advisors, they are rebuilding after 50 years of inheriting the worst run team in sports. We have the best minds in hockey trying to put the pieces in place. And for the first time since the first incarnation of Punch do we have the right GM in place.
I have been at this for over 50 years through good and bad (and that means Cups and many, many bad years) and this is the first time since Ballard took over that I feel at least the stars will align and when they do, we will all be more than ecstatic.
Just had to get this one out.

50 years?! Well, I'm not too far behind you! 


I have plenty of memories, opinions, feelings and such when it comes to our beloved blue and white. And yes, as you've so aptly described, with plenty of frustration, too.  But somewhere in me, I have faith that someday the Maple Leafs will win that Cup!


Thanks for your post.  It strikes a chord with long-suffering fans like us.

 

[TML fan]

Sadly.....

Interestingly, the wins column, the goals for column, and the goals against column all seem worse under Burke as compared to pre-Burke.


So, then, one needs to ask, what really has changed?

ONe would think there was some sort of rebuilding going on or something.

Sure, if thats what hea was interested in doing. Did he not state, unequivocably, he was NOT interested in a 5 year plan? Well.... mission accomplished dude....you're on pace for a 10 year plan..

It wouldn't take long to count up the number of players on this team who have performed to expectations, and none of those players would be the goalies.

 

[cw]

Good details of all of Burke's moves:
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL/Toronto/2012/04/03/19590041.html

 

[Corn Flake]

Sadly.....

Interestingly, the wins column, the goals for column, and the goals against column all seem worse under Burke as compared to pre-Burke.


So, then, one needs to ask, what really has changed?

ONe would think there was some sort of rebuilding going on or something.

Sure, if thats what hea was interested in doing. Did he not state, unequivocably, he was NOT interested in a 5 year plan? Well.... mission accomplished dude....you're on pace for a 10 year plan..

It wouldn't take long to count up the number of players on this team who have performed to expectations, and none of those players would be the goalies.

And if they had this would be a very different conversation.

So he didn't think it would take 5 years and it has (or will or whatever) ... so?  So it took longer than he hoped it would when he said that in week 1 on the job.  His actions of the last 2 years are more telling about how long this was going to take in his mind. 

 

[cw]

So he didn't think it would take 5 years and it has (or will or whatever) ... so?  So it took longer than he hoped it would when he said that in week 1 on the job.  His actions of the last 2 years are more telling about how long this was going to take in his mind.

I think he was hoping for more out of the UFA market when he talked about a timeline:
- but the UFA market since been pretty barren since Burke took over in Toronto
- and of the older UFAs Burke did sign, a bunch didn't pan out starting with Komisarek

Trades often even out as a 50/50 proposition - a GM gives up roughly equivalent talent value and gets that back in return.

UFAs do have busts but I'd say they work out ok more than 50% of the time.

The odd thing about Burke's term so far is that I'd say he's done better on his trades than he has with his UFA signings.

 

[Kin]

It wouldn't take long to count up the number of players on this team who have performed to expectations, and none of those players would be the goalies.

Yeah but, and I'm not sure if this contradicts the point you're making, those expectations were Burke's. Their failure to be the players Burke wanted them to be or fit in the way Burke would have hoped or even the failure to have a credible plan B is on Burke.

I mean, yeah, his horses didn't come in but it's still Burke who places the bets.

 

[slapshot]

Here's my thoughts on the season and Burke to date.

1. Run and gun system with young players is REALLY rolling the dice. The defensive side of the game really seemed to be thrown out the window. Young goalies, supported by young players, who really didn't seem to grasp the defensive responsibilities proved a recipe for disaster, once the tight-checking serious playoff drive kicked in. Once the losses started, things just snowballed and took on a life of its own. I think Carlyle will take them back to basics, and that's probably not a bad thing. It will, however, take time and some new personnel, though not as many changes as people are screaming for.

2. The needs are painfully obvious:

a) Veteran dependable goalie
b) Number 1 center
c) A tough defensive stud (with mobility) that can play alongside Gardiner to form what will evolve the number 1 pairing, with Phaneuf and Gunner falling to 3-4.
d) Truculence and testosterone. 

I'd like to comment on each of these.

a)  The goalie. I think Burkie can pull off a trade here. I am not overly worried that something decent won't get done.

b) I suspect the Leafs will take the best player available in the 2012, which will either be a Centreman or a D-Man. Or they will trade the pick for one of these, already NHL proven, as part of a larger deal.  If they get a number 1 centre by trade, including this pick, then fine. But I think the probability is slim. More likely they draft a top prospect centreman, that is going to take a couple of year's to develop. I don't see another top line center just falling out of a tree from some place, so I think the Leafs at least look at the possibility of moving Kessel to center and finding the right winger to go with him a Lupul. A power forward who can mix it up in the mold of a Scott Hartnell or Dustin Brown type (and stand in front of the net on the PP) might be the best option, assuming the Leafs don't land Parise. No doubt their would be questions about whether Kessel could handle both the defensive and face-off responsibilities. However, he has proven this season as much a player maker as scorer. There have been plenty of extremely successful smaller centers, Gretzky, Sakic and Yzerman to name a few - not that I expect that of Kessel. I'm just saying, you don't have to have size to be successful. However, moving Kessel to center would mean finding a new place for Bozak - 3rd line or trade? Carlyle looks to be favouring Steckel on line 3, but that could be just a stop-gap measure.

c) Solid number 2 defenceman. That's probably what the Leafs thought when they landed Phaneuf (#1 even), but to do a real upgrade they need a real consistent top defender. Ryan Suter would be the dream, but probably something less along those lines would work. Everyone keeps talking about Schenn's mobility, but can't skating be worked on? I mean I've heard plenty of guys interviewed who finally became NHL regulars and they say they worked on their skating and that was the biggest difference. Perhaps that's more common with forwards, but man you'd think even d-men could get some extra training with something so critical. Has he really reached his limit on skating? If so, then he should be packed for a more mobile number 2 guy with the toughness and defensive acumen. There is also some talk about the Leafs going after Justin Schultz, UFA from Anaheim (played with Gardiner), but he is more of an offensive catalyst from the reports I've read.

d) T & T, Quality tough guys might be one of the hardest areas to fill immediately. Teams that have them, just aren't giving them away, and the price is high. The Canucks trade Hodgson to get Kassian, and then probably only because they had Sedin and Kesler ahead of him. The Leafs are working on T & T through the draft, guys like Ross and Biggs, but they are a ways away. Nevertheless, I think Burke will beef up a bit in the off-season, just not sure how. Long term, I think as pieces like Ross and Biggs work their way in, this team will start to take on the look of "the blueprint."

3. Overall, I am still a big Burke backer. Yes, a few "major" things didn't go as planned. Leafs sucked during the Seguin draft year, but honestly who could or would have predicted that? Some UFAs haven't worked out so great (Komi, Connolly most notable), but MacArthur and Bozak were both decent UFA pick ups. Trade wise, I still think Burke has done a lot more good than harm. And, the reason why I refuse to bash Burke yet, is because we've yet to see who his scouting team and his draft choices pan out. That includes: Kadri, Biggs, Percy, Ross, McKegg, etc., plus this year's pick (assuming there is one). That in my mind, is the truest test. How does he build through the draft or use the draft?
Burke also has assembled arguably the best front office talent pool in hockey. Some may say overpaid and nothing to show (YET). However, would you sooner not have such an experienced front office? Yes, it's very disappointing to miss yet again, especially the way it happened. However, I think it only puts us a year behind schedule. I think the needs have come to the fore and the assets are starting to get banked to deal with that.
I don't think we need to trade Kessel or Phaneuf, just keep building and finding better pieces like Gardiner - man I love watching that kid. Even, if it take another 2-3 years, Kessel and Phaneuf will still be in their primes. As will a number of other pieces we have here already in place. Some of this young talent will just naturally get better, and others that seem to hit a wall and don't progress will just be discarded. Personally, I still think the future looks bright.

 

[Kin]

Yes, a few "major" things didn't go as planned. Leafs sucked during the Seguin draft year, but honestly who could or would have predicted that?

Anyone who's aware of the concept of goaltending.

 

[TML fan]

I acknowledge that. Ultimately the GM will take the fall, but it doesnt absolve the players of reaponsibility for their own play. Burke and his staff are all pretty knowledgeable people and they've all been GMs in the past. I'm not going to go as far and say that they've been incompetent.

 

[slapshot]

Yes, a few "major" things didn't go as planned. Leafs sucked during the Seguin draft year, but honestly who could or would have predicted that?

Anyone who's aware of the concept of goaltending.

I concur that is among those "things." A roll of the dice on Reimer that they got burned on. Was that concussion or simply coming back to earth?

 

[Kin]

I acknowledge that. Ultimately the GM will take the fall, but it doesnt absolve the players of reaponsibility for their own play. Burke and his staff are all pretty knowledgeable people and they've all been GMs in the past. I'm not going to go as far and say that they've been incompetent.

I don't think that anyone is absolving the players but I don't think blaming players for their limitations makes a lot of sense. Ultimately players can only be as good as they are. Gus is a perfect example. If it turns out that Gus is ultimately, at best, a good back-up in the NHL then it's not his fault that higher expectations were put on him and it's not his "failure" that he's not more than that.

 

[Kin]

I concur that is among those "things." A roll of the dice on Reimer that they got burned on. Was that concussion or simply coming back to earth?

I'm referring to the Seguin year. All anyone needed to do to predict the Leafs would suck that year is notice that their goaltending was terrible.

 

[slapshot]

I concur that is among those "things." A roll of the dice on Reimer that they got burned on. Was that concussion or simply coming back to earth?

I'm referring to the Seguin year. All anyone needed to do to predict the Leafs would suck that year is notice that their goaltending was terrible.

I see what you're saying, but I don't think ANYONE heading into the season, expected the team or the goaltending to falter so badly.

 

[Kin]

I see what you're saying, but I don't think ANYONE heading into the season, expected the team or the goaltending to falter so badly.

Well, people here definitely thought the team bottoming out was a possibility. Nobody carved it in stone but nobody does that about any team in any year.

Going into the season that year the team was this

Ponikarovsky-Stajan-Kessel
Hagman-Grabovski-Blake
Stempniak-Bozak-Kulemin
Mitchell-Wallin-Orr
Wayne Primeau

Kaberle-Beauchemin
Komisarek-White
Schenn-Exelby
Gunnarsson

Toskala
Gus

Ignore hindsight for a moment. Look at that team and what those players had accomplished at that point. Are you really going to try and say that the smart money wouldn't be that the team would be terrible? The top 6 is a trainwreck. There's nothing resembling a #1 defenseman. That is a terrible team top to bottom. The only reason people didn't expect a bottom 5 finish was the optimism that naturally takes hold at the beginning of camp. That was an awful collection of players.

 

[slapshot]

I see what you're saying, but I don't think ANYONE heading into the season, expected the team or the goaltending to falter so badly.

Well, people here definitely thought the team bottoming out was a possibility. Nobody carved it in stone but nobody does that about any team in any year.

Going into the season that year the team was this

Ponikarovsky-Stajan-Kessel
Hagman-Grabovski-Blake
Stempniak-Bozak-Kulemin
Mitchell-Wallin-Orr
Wayne Primeau

Kaberle-Beauchemin
Komisarek-White
Schenn-Exelby
Gunnarsson

Toskala
Gus

Ignore hindsight for a moment. Look at that team and what those players had accomplished at that point. Are you really going to try and say that the smart money wouldn't be that the team would be terrible? The top 6 is a trainwreck. There's nothing resembling a #1 defenseman. That is a terrible team top to bottom. The only reason people didn't expect a bottom 5 finish was the optimism that naturally takes hold at the beginning of camp. That was an awful collection of players.

Agreed, the forward crew looked brutal and the goaltending was suspect. However, the feeling going in was that the D was substantially upgraded with the Komi and Beau signings and Schenn expected to improve. It didn't work out that way.  It wasn't just camp optimism, there were tangible signings expected to deliver results, but not the kind that came forward.

Yes, people probably thought the Leafs would be in the bottom half and miss the playoffs, but not second last.

There are other sad rosters of players from other teams that year that, just as pathetic, that managed to finish above the Leafs, Columbus, Islanders and Florida to name a few.

Sorry, can't ignore hindsight. 20-20 you know...

 

[Kin]

Agreed, the forward crew looked brutal and the goaltending was suspect. However, the feeling going in was that the D was substantially upgraded with the Komi and Beau signings and Schenn expected to improve. It didn't work out that way.  It wasn't just camp optimism, there were tangible signings expected to deliver results, but not the kind that came forward.

First of all, there was no unanimity. There were people who thought the Leafs could be one of the worst teams in the league.

But more to the point, that camp optimism came through by virtue of the fact that people would look at any team with a bad group of forwards and no sure thing in net and not see that they can be really bad. Even if they had the 1977 Canadien's defense, and they didn't that defense is still pretty bad, dismissing that as a likely outcome did not make sense.

Yes, people probably thought the Leafs would be in the bottom half and miss the playoffs, but not second last.

People thought it was a possibility. Did people think it was definite? Nobody says anything definite going into the season. But the reality is that the people who saw the Leafs potential for being one of the worst teams in the league were right, the people who didn't were wrong.

There are other sad rosters of players from other teams that year that, just as pathetic, that managed to finish above the Leafs, Columbus, Islanders and Florida to name a few.

Well, Columbus was coming off a season where they made the playoffs and had the reigning Calder winner and Vezina nominee in net. They also probably had a better group of forwards. That shouldn't have surprised anyone. Florida's another team that could have been reasonably expected to finish ahead of the Leafs on the strength of goaltending alone.

The Islanders had a bad group of players but I don't think that anyone should have said with confidence that the Leafs would be better than them. 

Sorry, can't ignore hindsight. 20-20 you know...

I was saying ignore hindsight to help your case out. If we're going to use hindsight than Burke should be fired for having faith in Vesa Toskala alone.

 

[moon111]

I think one of Burke's biggest issue was his viewing other sports for their handling of contracts while under a salary cap.  You don't see NHL teams and their players parting ways because they can't negotiate a contract as much.  I'd be willing to bet Burke figured he'd be able to sign someone huge by now.

 

[TML fan]

I acknowledge that. Ultimately the GM will take the fall, but it doesnt absolve the players of reaponsibility for their own play. Burke and his staff are all pretty knowledgeable people and they've all been GMs in the past. I'm not going to go as far and say that they've been incompetent.

I don't think that anyone is absolving the players but I don't think blaming players for their limitations makes a lot of sense. Ultimately players can only be as good as they are. Gus is a perfect example. If it turns out that Gus is ultimately, at best, a good back-up in the NHL then it's not his fault that higher expectations were put on him and it's not his "failure" that he's not more than that.

I agree with that to an extent. I wouldn't use Kulemin's season as an example of Burke's inability to judge the talent level of a player any more than I would use Lupul or Gardiner as a shining example of just how awesome Burke is at his job.

At this point, we don't know what a lot of these players are. We just know that they're not good enough to get this team to the playoffs. Ultimately, Burke's faith may be his downfall.