The Brian Burke Thread

[Kin]

Here are our best players:
Kessel
Lupul
Grabovski

These were all good players when Burke acquired them, what have the Leafs done to make these players better?

...You realize that Kessel and Lupul are on pace to have their best seasons ever by pretty significant margins, right? And that Grabs is also at his best ppg?

 

[Corn Flake]

I'm not sure what kind of detail you are looking for here but the number of young players moved into the NHL lineup, all in meaningful roles, plus the number of prospects acquired in the last few years and developing/showing improvement at all levels from the AHL to CHL to US College, etc., should really speak for itself. 

Add all those up and explain to us why you think its a system with no direction and not developing players. 

I fail to see how this any different than what any other team does, ie. get young players, develop young players.  The player acquisitions seem to be a hodgepodge with no direction. 

I read your post and honestly, I really don't know where to start to help you understand. 

 

[lc9]

Here are our best players:
Kessel
Lupul
Grabovski

These were all good players when Burke acquired them, what have the Leafs done to make these players better?

...You realize that Kessel and Lupul are on pace to have their best seasons ever by pretty significant margins, right? And that Grabs is also at his best ppg?

And I ask again, what have the Leafs done to make them better? 

I mean, it is one of two things:
1. The Leafs have developed Kessel and Lupul so well that they are having their best season ever or
2. Burke made a steal of a trade for a really good player, who was just injured, and he got to play with Kessel which has produced two career years. 

Has Wilson changed his style to enhance their play? 

 

[Corn Flake]

Here are our best players:
Kessel
Lupul
Grabovski

These were all good players when Burke acquired them, what have the Leafs done to make these players better?

...You realize that Kessel and Lupul are on pace to have their best seasons ever by pretty significant margins, right? And that Grabs is also at his best ppg?

Hey.. this only works if you ignore things like facts, areas of success, reality.

 

[Zee]

Here are our best players:
Kessel
Lupul
Grabovski

These were all good players when Burke acquired them, what have the Leafs done to make these players better?

...You realize that Kessel and Lupul are on pace to have their best seasons ever by pretty significant margins, right? And that Grabs is also at his best ppg?

Yeah I don't get it.  The Leafs acquired Grabovski in 2008 -- he was nowhere NEAR the player he is today back in 2008, that's the reason we got him for relatively cheap.  I would say he's blossomed on the Leafs into a very good player.

Lupul had talent, but he wasn't scoring anywhere near the clip he's producing at now as well, and Kessel has turned his game up from being a 50-60 point guy to being a 70-80 point guy.

 

[lc9]

I'm not sure what kind of detail you are looking for here but the number of young players moved into the NHL lineup, all in meaningful roles, plus the number of prospects acquired in the last few years and developing/showing improvement at all levels from the AHL to CHL to US College, etc., should really speak for itself. 

Add all those up and explain to us why you think its a system with no direction and not developing players. 

I fail to see how this any different than what any other team does, ie. get young players, develop young players.  The player acquisitions seem to be a hodgepodge with no direction. 

I read your post and honestly, I really don't know where to start to help you understand. 

Well know that this is all genuine, so I am all ears. 

Please show me the truculence, show me how our goalies have gotten better, show we how our defense has gotten better.  These things would follow a plan.  The Leafs are better this season because of Lupul and Kessel, everything else is no different than the past 4 years, including not being in the playoffs.

 

[Tigger]

Gustavson and Reimer, both leaf products, have turned out (up to this point) to be below average

Wasn't there a post somewhere that stated they are the most inexperienced tandem in the league?

 

[lc9]

Wasn't there a post somewhere that stated they are the most inexperienced tandem in the league?

So they should let in weak goals because of this?

 

[lc9]

I mean, if it is as clear as most of you seem to see it, please...lay it out...I honestly want to see too.  What the hell is the direction?  4 years ago we had a defense and goalie problem, today we have a defense and goalie problem.

 

[Redleaf]

I mean, if it is as clear as most of you seem to see it, please...lay it out...I honestly want to see too.  What the hell is the direction?  4 years ago we had a defense and goalie problem, today we have a defense and goalie problem.

No offense, but if you see no progress and no future for the Leafs, why do you still follow them?  If you're that fed up find another team or sport to cheer for...

 

[Bender]

I'm not sure what kind of detail you are looking for here but the number of young players moved into the NHL lineup, all in meaningful roles, plus the number of prospects acquired in the last few years and developing/showing improvement at all levels from the AHL to CHL to US College, etc., should really speak for itself. 

Add all those up and explain to us why you think its a system with no direction and not developing players. 

I fail to see how this any different than what any other team does, ie. get young players, develop young players.  The player acquisitions seem to be a hodgepodge with no direction. 

Examples of no direction:
-Signs Versteeg then trades Versteeg before the year is out
-Signs Komisarek, gives him the "A" and then he is benched
-Trades for Phanuef and gives him the "C."  Dion stinks
-Brings up Reimer who has 30 good games.  Signs him to 3 year deal
-Signs Brent Lebda, does whatever it takes to get rid of Lebda

Please share what development you see?  Kessel is the same player since we traded for him (which I am not complaining about), Kulimen seems to have regressed, Armstrong hasn't seen the ice, Kadri can't stay with the big club, Aulie isn't consistent.

Here are our best players:
Kessel
Lupul
Grabovski

These were all good players when Burke acquired them, what have the Leafs done to make these players better?

Gustavson and Reimer, both leaf products, have turned out (up to this point) to be below average and Phanuef is one of our worst defenseman.  Burke says he wants truculence, than he acquires all soft players.  Wilson says his team wants to be one of puck possesion, yet the leafs dump the puck from their own zone like its a hot potato. 

There is no consistency in how Burke has operated since he got here, more knee-jerk reactions than anything.  There is no system on the ice that is useable to make the playoffs, the players don't understand d-zone coverage and the goalies don't understand angles.

Everything appears to be without direction, which is why we keep missing the playoffs.

Besides the fact that Kessel and Lupul are FAR better players now than when we got them...

It's also interesting how people are complaining that our prospects aren't progressing then state that Eakins should be brough up because he's doing a good job. The irony is delicious.

I didn't like the Komi signing, but he's hardly causing the Leafs to implode. Taking up cap space, yes, but not really hurting the team.

Sign and trade of Versteeg: Reminds me of what Columbus has done with JC. Versteeg didn't really want to play here, didn't really fit here, but still had lots of value. I don't understand how drafting a quality player in Stuart Percy is bad value for Versteeg. I think Versteeg is overachieving this year and few people pegged him as a PPG player.

Lebda: Really? Who cares? Franson and Lombardi.

Reimer: Hindsight is 20/20. They probably needed a vet backup, but then Jonas was as good as gone. No one expected Reimer to sustain a concussion.

Phaneuf with the C: You must really be well connected behind the scenes to know what kind of a captain he is. People complained about Sundin not being vocal enough... how much water did that hold?


Prospects and young players we have brought in since Burke: Jake Gardiner, Joe Colborne, Stuart Percy, Nazem Kadri, Tyler Biggs, Jonas Gustavsson, Tyler Bozak, Viktor Stalberg, Ben Scrivens, Jussi Rynnas, Mark Owuya, Greg McKegg, Jesse Blacker

Amongst others. That's a much better pool than what we had when JFJ was gone, or do you have fond memories of JFJ's tenure here?

Kulemin: I don't know how you can blame the coach or GM for Kulemin not playing well. There was next to no change for the Grabbo Mac Kooly line to start the season BECAUSE they clicked so well last year so they didn't screw up their chemistry. Kulemin not finishing rests on Kulemin.

Seriously, what knee jerk reactions are you talking about? Fixing a perceived mistake in Versteeg and Beauchemin? Attracting more prospects into our system than we did before?

And again, I love how we hang everything on Burke. Burke ain't a one man show, I hate to break it to you. Dave Nonis does a lot of the leg work too, and if you think his body of work doesn't add to his credentials then I have nothing more to say to you.

Vancouver was largely built by Burke and Nonis, Burke won a cup with Anaheim, but when they come to Toronto they become incompetent.

 

[Kin]

And I ask again, what have the Leafs done to make them better?

It's not something any of us can answer without being far more knowledge of what goes on in practice. I don't know how Wilson/Burke deal with individual players and neither do you. But they are getting better and I'm not going to argue with results. Kessel is improving as a player. Lupul is playing better this year than in any year before. Those just be the facts. 

I mean, it is one of two things:
1. The Leafs have developed Kessel and Lupul so well that they are having their best season ever or
2. Burke made a steal of a trade for a really good player, who was just injured, and he got to play with Kessel which has produced two career years. 

Or, really, it's a mix of the two. Combined with Burke correctly identifying Lupul as a player who could compliment Kessel and making a terrific trade for him.

There's a lot to complain about with the Leafs but the development of Kessel, Grabo and Lupul, I mean, no. Just no.

 

[lc9]

I mean, if it is as clear as most of you seem to see it, please...lay it out...I honestly want to see too.  What the hell is the direction?  4 years ago we had a defense and goalie problem, today we have a defense and goalie problem.

No offense, but if you see no progress and no future for the Leafs, why do you still follow them?  If your that fed up find another team or sport to cheer for...

Come on man, I am not a band-wagoner.  I followed the Detroit Lions this passionately since '99...so I didn't even get to see Barry.  And I watched the Tigers when they lost 119 games.

I never said I don't see a future, look at the Tigers, we have Cabrera and Fielder now.  That is why you continue to follow, hoping a team becomes better.  The leafs haven't gotten better under Burke and I think the biggest problem is Ron Wilson.  So really Burke creates the problem himself by not firing Wilson.

 

[lc9]

Or, really, it's a mix of the two. Combined with Burke correctly identifying Lupul as a player who could compliment Kessel and making a terrific trade for him.

There's a lot to complain about with the Leafs but the development of Kessel, Grabo and Lupul, I mean, no. Just no.

When did I complain about them?  I said Burke made a steal of a trade for Lupul and then said they are having career years playing on the same line.  I love the development of Kessel and Lupul. 

So let me ask you Nik, if you think it is a mix of the two...weight it for me.  How much has this breakout season of Kessel and Lupul had to do with the coaching and how much had to do with them just being good players on the same line.  Obviously Lupul is the best line-mate Kessel has had in Toronto. 

 

[Redleaf]

I mean, if it is as clear as most of you seem to see it, please...lay it out...I honestly want to see too.  What the hell is the direction?  4 years ago we had a defense and goalie problem, today we have a defense and goalie problem.

No offense, but if you see no progress and no future for the Leafs, why do you still follow them?  If your that fed up find another team or sport to cheer for...

Come on man, I am not a band-wagoner.  I followed the Detroit Lions this passionately since '99...so I didn't even get to see Barry.  And I watched the Tigers when they lost 119 games.

I never said I don't see a future, look at the Tigers, we have Cabrera and Fielder now.  That is why you continue to follow, hoping a team becomes better.  The leafs haven't gotten better under Burke and I think the biggest problem is Ron Wilson.  So really Burke creates the problem himself by not firing Wilson.

Alright. So you think Wilson and Burke are the problem. Not really sure why you want posters here to lay out their differing arguments? Sounds like you're pretty convinced you're right about this. I mean, what's the point?

 

[Kin]

When did I complain about them?

You said Kessel is the same player he was when the team traded for him as part of your "evidence" that the team isn't developing players. That's pretty clearly not the case.

So let me ask you Nik, if you think it is a mix of the two...weight it for me.  How much has this breakout season of Kessel and Lupul had to do with the coaching and how much had to do with them just being good players on the same line.

Sure. It's 32.111% coaching, 27.387% line chemistry, 26.244% organizational excellence and training methods and 24.258% natural development over time.

 

[lc9]

Besides the fact that Kessel and Lupul are FAR better players now than when we got them...

Can we say this?  Kessel PPGs before this season:
08-09: .86 (with BOS)
09-10: .78
10-11: .78

Lupul has made Kessel a better player, and vice versa, can't deny that.

It's also interesting how people are complaining that our prospects aren't progressing then state that Eakins should be brough up because he's doing a good job. The irony is delicious.

I don't believe I have ever mentioned Eakins before. 

Sign and trade of Versteeg: Reminds me of what Columbus has done with JC. Versteeg didn't really want to play here, didn't really fit here, but still had lots of value. I don't understand how drafting a quality player in Stuart Percy is bad value for Versteeg. I think Versteeg is overachieving this year and few people pegged him as a PPG player.

Again, it just shows poor foresight, that is what I am getting at.

Lebda: Really? Who cares? Franson and Lombardi.

Conceded.

Reimer: Hindsight is 20/20. They probably needed a vet backup, but then Jonas was as good as gone. No one expected Reimer to sustain a concussion.

So you're suggesting the concussion is what has made Reimer unable to stop anything over his shoulder?

Phaneuf with the C: You must really be well connected behind the scenes to know what kind of a captain he is. People complained about Sundin not being vocal enough... how much water did that hold?

 

Well I loved Sundin as Captain.  Again, when a team looks disorganized on the ice you can point to two people, the captain and the coach.

Prospects and young players we have brought in since Burke: Jake Gardiner, Joe Colborne, Stuart Percy, Nazem Kadri, Tyler Biggs, Jonas Gustavsson, Tyler Bozak, Viktor Stalberg, Ben Scrivens, Jussi Rynnas, Mark Owuya, Greg McKegg, Jesse Blacker

Amongst others. That's a much better pool than what we had when JFJ was gone, or do you have fond memories of JFJ's tenure here?

Every team can list off a list of prospects, doesn't mean anything til they start producing and helping the Leafs win games.  If Burke doesn't change things he will be no different than JFJ, just a GM who couldn't make the playoffs.

And again, I love how we hang everything on Burke. Burke ain't a one man show, I hate to break it to you. Dave Nonis does a lot of the leg work too, and if you think his body of work doesn't add to his credentials then I have nothing more to say to you.

Vancouver was largely built by Burke and Nonis, Burke won a cup with Anaheim, but when they come to Toronto they become incompetent.

OK, blame Nonis too.  I don't care what Burke did in Anaheim or Vancouver more than I care that George H. W. Bush  won a war and then immediately got ousted for President by Clinton.  How does Anaheims cup win help the Leafs?

 

[lc9]

Sure. It's 32.111% coaching, 27.387% line chemistry, 26.244% organizational excellence and training methods and 24.258% natural development over time.

Interesting, can't even be serious about what made Lupul and Kessel better, but yet you can see the direction that Burke has set.

 

[Kin]

Interesting, can't even be serious about what made Lupul and Kessel better, but yet you can see the direction that Burke has set.

Well, no, I can't be serious about people asking me to come up with nonsense numbers based on information none of us are privy to but, yet, I can make out that Kessel, Grabo and Lupul are developing as players.

 

[lc9]

You said Kessel is the same player he was when the team traded for him as part of your "evidence" that the team isn't developing players. That's pretty clearly not the case.

What part of Kessels game has changed besides Lupul putting the puck in the net when Kessel passes it to him and teams having more than one player to zero in on?