The Brian Burke Thread

[Bender]

I'm not sure how bringing in great front office talent, filling the prospect pool and trading for good players when we completely bereft of talent isn't doing the team any favors. There's still a lot of work to do but so what? Rome wasn't built in a day, and we finally have some pieces to make strategic trades. Or maybe we should go out and get Yannick Perreault for a 2nd?

Ron Wilson: They were doing well when he was resigned and wanted to take the focus off the coach not having an extension to the whole of the team. I will be confused if he doesn't let go of Ron if we don't make the playoffs, but until then I'm OK with letting the season ride out and reassess the coach market in the summer.

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[Bender]

And just to add, its not like Burke an autocrat when it comes to player personnel. If you've heard any of his interviews he likes to reach consensus with guys like Nonis and Poulin. I think even with our growing pains well be better off with that kind of decision making in there long run.

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[lc9]

I'm not sure how bringing in great front office talent, filling the prospect pool and trading for good players when we completely bereft of talent isn't doing the team any favors. There's still a lot of work to do but so what? Rome wasn't built in a day, and we finally have some pieces to make strategic trades. Or maybe we should go out and get Yannick Perreault for a 2nd?

Ron Wilson: They were doing well when he was resigned and wanted to take the focus off the coach not having an extension to the whole of the team. I will be confused if he doesn't let go of Ron if we don't make the playoffs, but until then I'm OK with letting the season ride out and reassess the coach market in the summer.

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Don't give me Rome wasn't built in a day.  Burke has had 4 full seasons, and we still haven't made the playoffs.  I don't know how you can suggest he is doing a good job.  He continues to employ a lame duck coach and the talent he acquires is soft as pudding.  There is no cohesion and he egregiously gave the captaincy to a player who can't lead.

"Let it ride out," is a mantra of failure.  Why leaf fans are resigned to except that is peculiar. 

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

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You really need to do something about that...

 

[lc9]

And just to add, its not like Burke an autocrat when it comes to player personnel. If you've heard any of his interviews he likes to reach consensus with guys like Nonis and Poulin. I think even with our growing pains well be better off with that kind of decision making in there long run.

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I don't see growing pains, I see poor player development and poor system structure.  The organization as a whole appears as if they have no direction. 

 

[Zee]

He was a great GM when we were in 1st in the East.

Huh?  "When we were 1st in the league?"  Does that count for something NOW that the Leafs might miss the playoffs.  "Everything is fine because in the first month of the season the Leafs were #1 in the conference!"

In-season accomplishments mean nothing if ultimately the team is a failure.

The thing that irks me with Burke is, in many interviews i've heard him say, and I'm paraphrasing here, "we're not interested in making the playoffs and getting our asses kicked, we want a parade.  We could have made the playoffs in the last 2 seasons if I traded away a bunch at the deadline."

Now I hear that, and I said BS.  He thinks the Leafs COULD have made the playoffs each of the last 2 years somehow with some deadline trade where he supposedly "mortgages the future".  If he knows exactly how to get this team into the playoffs, he sure isn't showing it in the last 3-4 years.

 

[proteus2000]

I'm not sure how bringing in great front office talent, filling the prospect pool and trading for good players when we completely bereft of talent isn't doing the team any favors. There's still a lot of work to do but so what? Rome wasn't built in a day, and we finally have some pieces to make strategic trades. Or maybe we should go out and get Yannick Perreault for a 2nd?

Ron Wilson: They were doing well when he was resigned and wanted to take the focus off the coach not having an extension to the whole of the team. I will be confused if he doesn't let go of Ron if we don't make the playoffs, but until then I'm OK with letting the season ride out and reassess the coach market in the summer.

Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk

Don't give me Rome wasn't built in a day.  Burke has had 4 full seasons, and we still haven't made the playoffs.  I don't know how you can suggest he is doing a good job.  He continues to employ a lame duck coach and the talent he acquires is soft as pudding.  There is no cohesion and he egregiously gave the captaincy to a player who can't lead.

"Let it ride out," is a mantra of failure.  Why leaf fans are resigned to except that is peculiar.

Burke has made some good trades and filled the "cupboards" up more than what we were accustomed to seeing and made their AHL club into a regular one...but I have to concur that something is wrong after 4 years. Didn't we finish 9th or 10th the yr before Burke came in? And with lackluster campaigns by the Caps/Sabres/Lightning/Habs/Canes, all who finished ahead of the Leafs last season, I feel that they REALLY should've been a shoo-in, esp with Lupul and Kessel's epic years.

Their goaltending is just as questionable as always and far more likely to cost a game than to steal one, their D are mostly flatfooted sieves who give the puck away to forecheckers too easily, and they still lack secondary scoring, who on forward get pushed around too easily. Oh and their coach is considered the worst guy to play for in the nhl and simply seems to have become obsolete in the evolution of hockey.

 

[Zee]

I'm not sure how bringing in great front office talent, filling the prospect pool and trading for good players when we completely bereft of talent isn't doing the team any favors. There's still a lot of work to do but so what? Rome wasn't built in a day, and we finally have some pieces to make strategic trades. Or maybe we should go out and get Yannick Perreault for a 2nd?

Ron Wilson: They were doing well when he was resigned and wanted to take the focus off the coach not having an extension to the whole of the team. I will be confused if he doesn't let go of Ron if we don't make the playoffs, but until then I'm OK with letting the season ride out and reassess the coach market in the summer.

Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk

Don't give me Rome wasn't built in a day.  Burke has had 4 full seasons, and we still haven't made the playoffs.  I don't know how you can suggest he is doing a good job.  He continues to employ a lame duck coach and the talent he acquires is soft as pudding.  There is no cohesion and he egregiously gave the captaincy to a player who can't lead.

"Let it ride out," is a mantra of failure.  Why leaf fans are resigned to except that is peculiar.

Burke has made some good trades and filled the "cupboards" up more than what we were accustomed to seeing and made their AHL club into a regular one...but I have to concur that something is wrong after 4 years. Didn't we finish 9th or 10th the yr before Burke came in? And with lackluster campaigns by the Caps/Sabres/Lightning/Habs/Canes, all who finished ahead of the Leafs last season, I feel that they REALLY should've been a shoo-in, esp with Lupul and Kessel's epic years.

Their goaltending is just as questionable as always and far more likely to cost a game than to steal one, their D are mostly flatfooted sieves who give the puck away to forecheckers like, and they still lack secondary scoring, who on forward get pushed around too easily. Oh and their coach is considered the worst guy to play for in the nhl and simply seems to have become obsolete in the evolution of hockey.

I think that's Burke's biggest issue -- the goalie.  He was duped by the run with Reimer last year and figured all was well.  He really needed a quality vet in net for this young team.  That and sticking with Teflon Ron.

 

[Corn Flake]

And just to add, its not like Burke an autocrat when it comes to player personnel. If you've heard any of his interviews he likes to reach consensus with guys like Nonis and Poulin. I think even with our growing pains well be better off with that kind of decision making in there long run.

Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk

I don't see growing pains, I see poor player development and poor system structure.  The organization as a whole appears as if they have no direction.

This doesn't need to be rehashed yet again because its so far from reality, its ridiculous.

I think you are paying attention to the wrong team in blue.

 

[Bender]

He was a great GM when we were in 1st in the East.

Huh?  "When we were 1st in the league?"  Does that count for something NOW that the Leafs might miss the playoffs.  "Everything is fine because in the first month of the season the Leafs were #1 in the conference!"

In-season accomplishments mean nothing if ultimately the team is a failure.

The thing that irks me with Burke is, in many interviews i've heard him say, and I'm paraphrasing here, "we're not interested in making the playoffs and getting our asses kicked, we want a parade.  We could have made the playoffs in the last 2 seasons if I traded away a bunch at the deadline."

Now I hear that, and I said BS.  He thinks the Leafs COULD have made the playoffs each of the last 2 years somehow with some deadline trade where he supposedly "mortgages the future".  If he knows exactly how to get this team into the playoffs, he sure isn't showing it in the last 3-4 years.

Fine, but like in politics, it takes some time to really see how much damage has been done to a party or costituency. JFJ didn't just ruin the franchise while he was here, he screwed up the first couple of seasons after he left as well. I don't know how you can hold Burke accountable for not making the playoffs for at least the first couple of seasons here, and Burke's said time and time again that the goal is to make the playoffs, but he doesn't feel that they really had the assets to compete last year.

And hey, I was being facetious because at the time everybody was singing Burke's praises and now we're dumping on him because we're not in a position where we want to be. We're so day to day when it comes to assessment. I don't understand how half the time people who are complaining about the team today were praising the team in November for being a good team.

Maybe your expectations are different than mine, but here are mine: We are going to dogfight it for 8th, and thats what's happening right now. I'm not at all surprised or angry at the results.

Would I have liked a full rebuild instead of a retool? Sure. But I think he's doing a decent job setting up the organization for long term success after the retool didn't quite work.

Now I hear that, and I said BS.  He thinks the Leafs COULD have made the playoffs each of the last 2 years somehow with some deadline trade where he supposedly "mortgages the future".  If he knows exactly how to get this team into the playoffs, he sure isn't showing it in the last 3-4 years.

I'm not sure what you're calling BS on: the fact that he knows how to get into the playoffs or the fact that he would have to give up important future building blocks? At any rate, it's Burke's not an autocratic dictator who blindly makes moves without consensus from his other staff like Poulin, Nonis, Fletcher, Dudley etc. If you're basing the quality of minds in the room on a few years where we haven't had a whole lot to work with, and think that Burke runs the team without strong input from multiple people who possess strong hockey minds then I'm sorry, I simply have to disagree with you, regardless of the fact that we're dogfighting it this year and a spot isn't guaranteed.

 

[Bender]

I'm not sure how bringing in great front office talent, filling the prospect pool and trading for good players when we completely bereft of talent isn't doing the team any favors. There's still a lot of work to do but so what? Rome wasn't built in a day, and we finally have some pieces to make strategic trades. Or maybe we should go out and get Yannick Perreault for a 2nd?

Ron Wilson: They were doing well when he was resigned and wanted to take the focus off the coach not having an extension to the whole of the team. I will be confused if he doesn't let go of Ron if we don't make the playoffs, but until then I'm OK with letting the season ride out and reassess the coach market in the summer.

Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk

Don't give me Rome wasn't built in a day.  Burke has had 4 full seasons, and we still haven't made the playoffs.  I don't know how you can suggest he is doing a good job.  He continues to employ a lame duck coach and the talent he acquires is soft as pudding.  There is no cohesion and he egregiously gave the captaincy to a player who can't lead.

"Let it ride out," is a mantra of failure.  Why leaf fans are resigned to except that is peculiar.

Burke has made some good trades and filled the "cupboards" up more than what we were accustomed to seeing and made their AHL club into a regular one...but I have to concur that something is wrong after 4 years. Didn't we finish 9th or 10th the yr before Burke came in? And with lackluster campaigns by the Caps/Sabres/Lightning/Habs/Canes, all who finished ahead of the Leafs last season, I feel that they REALLY should've been a shoo-in, esp with Lupul and Kessel's epic years.

Their goaltending is just as questionable as always and far more likely to cost a game than to steal one, their D are mostly flatfooted sieves who give the puck away to forecheckers like, and they still lack secondary scoring, who on forward get pushed around too easily. Oh and their coach is considered the worst guy to play for in the nhl and simply seems to have become obsolete in the evolution of hockey.

I think that's Burke's biggest issue -- the goalie.  He was duped by the run with Reimer last year and figured all was well.  He really needed a quality vet in net for this young team.  That and sticking with Teflon Ron.

I think he might've been a bit hasty in naming Reimer the starter, but still, the decision made sense based on his play last year. I don't think many people would've guessed that he would drop off as quick as he has.

 

[Zee]

I'm not sure what you're calling BS on: the fact that he knows how to get into the playoffs or the fact that he would have to give up important future building blocks? At any rate, it's Burke's not an autocratic dictator who blindly makes moves without consensus from his other staff like Poulin, Nonis, Fletcher, Dudley etc. If you're basing the quality of minds in the room based on a few years where we haven't had a whole lot to work with, and think that Burke runs the team without strong input from multiple people who possess strong hockey minds then I'm sorry, I simply have to disagree with you, regardless of the fact that we're dogfighting it this year and a spot isn't guaranteed.

I'm calling BS on the fact that there's NO guarantee how to get into the playoffs.  Burke talking about how this team *could* have made the playoffs if he shipped out a bunch of young players/picks is total hogwash.  It's as if he's saying that to calm fans down and let us know that he has a "bigger picture" in mind.  "Hey I could have made the playoffs but I held back so we could stock pile young talent". 

I believe in the approach of building up your farm and talent like they're trying to do now, just don't constantly tell me the Leafs could have easily gotten into the playoffs the last 2 seasons because it's not that easy.  He almost sounds condescending when he says that to fans.

 

[Mikhail Bloodnovsky]

No point bashing Burke. We can just let the team performance speak for itself.

4 years in and the goal tending is still a mess, the team is bound to miss the play offs again.

For all the talk of improvement this team is no pace for only 2 pts ahead of last year. 

He has 7.5 million in contracts sitting in the press box.

He also has Lombardi and Connolly at another 8 million contributing cool 40 pts so far this season forming one of the most ineffective, expensive 3rd lines ever seen.

Given all this he has one of the most expensive, biggest, entourage of executives around him. Also one of the most expensive coaches and certainly the most expensive goal tending coach in the league.

The new owners will certainly take a good hard look at what this guy is bringing.

 

[lc9]

This doesn't need to be rehashed yet again because its so far from reality, its ridiculous.

I think you are paying attention to the wrong team in blue.

So, it's ridiculous because you say so?  Nothing more lazy than refuting an argument with nothing substantive. 

Show me other wise.  No playoffs, no goalie, no d-zone coverage.  Where is the direction?  Burke preached truculence from day one, where is that?

 

[Zee]

No point bashing Burke. We can just let the team performance speak for itself.

4 years in and the goal tending is still a mess, the team is bound to miss the play offs again.

For all the talk of improvement this team is no pace for only 2 pts ahead of last year. 

He has 7.5 million in contracts sitting in the press box.

He also has Lombardi and Connolly at another 8 million contributing cool 40 pts so far this season forming one of the most ineffective, expensive 3rd lines ever seen.

Given all this he has one of the most expensive, biggest, entourage of executives around him. Also one of the most expensive coaches and certainly the most expensive goal tending coach in the league.

The new owners will certainly take a good hard look at what this guy is bringing.

The sad fact is, you take a look another team like the Sens, they had 74 points last year, were worse off than the Leafs, and then a shrewd move here and there (new coach, new goalie among others) and suddenly they're in the mix for playoffs.  The funny thing is, Ottawa didn't even expect to be this good so there's no panic in them to make the playoffs this year.  The Leafs have been trying to build for 3-4 years now and we're arguably BEHIND the Sens in terms of overall progress.  A quick turnaround can happen, Burke has fumbled the ball on this.

 

[rdowdall]

No point bashing Burke. We can just let the team performance speak for itself.

4 years in and the goal tending is still a mess, the team is bound to miss the play offs again.

For all the talk of improvement this team is no pace for only 2 pts ahead of last year. 

He has 7.5 million in contracts sitting in the press box.

He also has Lombardi and Connolly at another 8 million contributing cool 40 pts so far this season forming one of the most ineffective, expensive 3rd lines ever seen.

Given all this he has one of the most expensive, biggest, entourage of executives around him. Also one of the most expensive coaches and certainly the most expensive goal tending coach in the league.

The new owners will certainly take a good hard look at what this guy is bringing.

The sad fact is, you take a look another team like the Sens, they had 74 points last year, were worse off than the Leafs, and then a shrewd move here and there (new coach, new goalie among others) and suddenly they're in the mix for playoffs.  The funny thing is, Ottawa didn't even expect to be this good so there's no panic in them to make the playoffs this year.  The Leafs have been trying to build for 3-4 years now and we're arguably BEHIND the Sens in terms of overall progress.  A quick turnaround can happen, Burke has fumbled the ball on this.

The Sens were not as bad as their record last year.  Clouston totally destroyed the confidence in that room IMHO.  Also, they never reached the low of the Leafs because they still had premier talent in place even during their lean years, and they just had to build around it.

The Leafs don't have that premier talent.  It's supposed to be Phanuef and Kessel, but even then, it's not really enough.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

No point bashing Burke. We can just let the team performance speak for itself.

4 years in and the goal tending is still a mess, the team is bound to miss the play offs again.

For all the talk of improvement this team is no pace for only 2 pts ahead of last year. 

He has 7.5 million in contracts sitting in the press box.

He also has Lombardi and Connolly at another 8 million contributing cool 40 pts so far this season forming one of the most ineffective, expensive 3rd lines ever seen.

Given all this he has one of the most expensive, biggest, entourage of executives around him. Also one of the most expensive coaches and certainly the most expensive goal tending coach in the league.

The new owners will certainly take a good hard look at what this guy is bringing.

The sad fact is, you take a look another team like the Sens, they had 74 points last year, were worse off than the Leafs, and then a shrewd move here and there (new coach, new goalie among others) and suddenly they're in the mix for playoffs.  The funny thing is, Ottawa didn't even expect to be this good so there's no panic in them to make the playoffs this year.  The Leafs have been trying to build for 3-4 years now and we're arguably BEHIND the Sens in terms of overall progress.  A quick turnaround can happen, Burke has fumbled the ball on this.

Well that's only part of the truth though. A large part of the Sens success is Spezza, Gonchar and Alfredsson who are aging (Spezza least of the bunch).

Let's see what the Sens are competing for in 3-4 years.

 

[Zee]

No point bashing Burke. We can just let the team performance speak for itself.

4 years in and the goal tending is still a mess, the team is bound to miss the play offs again.

For all the talk of improvement this team is no pace for only 2 pts ahead of last year. 

He has 7.5 million in contracts sitting in the press box.

He also has Lombardi and Connolly at another 8 million contributing cool 40 pts so far this season forming one of the most ineffective, expensive 3rd lines ever seen.

Given all this he has one of the most expensive, biggest, entourage of executives around him. Also one of the most expensive coaches and certainly the most expensive goal tending coach in the league.

The new owners will certainly take a good hard look at what this guy is bringing.

The sad fact is, you take a look another team like the Sens, they had 74 points last year, were worse off than the Leafs, and then a shrewd move here and there (new coach, new goalie among others) and suddenly they're in the mix for playoffs.  The funny thing is, Ottawa didn't even expect to be this good so there's no panic in them to make the playoffs this year.  The Leafs have been trying to build for 3-4 years now and we're arguably BEHIND the Sens in terms of overall progress.  A quick turnaround can happen, Burke has fumbled the ball on this.

The Sens were not as bad as their record last year.  Clouston totally destroyed the confidence in that room IMHO.  Also, they never reached the low of the Leafs because they still had premier talent in place even during their lean years, and they just had to build around it.

The Leafs don't have that premier talent.  It's supposed to be Phanuef and Kessel, but even then, it's not really enough.

So Clouston was an issue?  There's many on this board that think Wilson is an issue too.  A coach can have a huge effect on a team, and they're a prime example.  The Leafs have top end talent, Kessel, Lupul, Grabovski and Phaneuf have played well enough.  Aside from Karlsson and Spezza having a great year, they're no more ahead in terms of top end talent.

 

[Bender]

No point bashing Burke. We can just let the team performance speak for itself.

4 years in and the goal tending is still a mess, the team is bound to miss the play offs again.

For all the talk of improvement this team is no pace for only 2 pts ahead of last year. 

He has 7.5 million in contracts sitting in the press box.

He also has Lombardi and Connolly at another 8 million contributing cool 40 pts so far this season forming one of the most ineffective, expensive 3rd lines ever seen.

Given all this he has one of the most expensive, biggest, entourage of executives around him. Also one of the most expensive coaches and certainly the most expensive goal tending coach in the league.

The new owners will certainly take a good hard look at what this guy is bringing.

The sad fact is, you take a look another team like the Sens, they had 74 points last year, were worse off than the Leafs, and then a shrewd move here and there (new coach, new goalie among others) and suddenly they're in the mix for playoffs.  The funny thing is, Ottawa didn't even expect to be this good so there's no panic in them to make the playoffs this year.  The Leafs have been trying to build for 3-4 years now and we're arguably BEHIND the Sens in terms of overall progress.  A quick turnaround can happen, Burke has fumbled the ball on this.

I'm not saying it can't happen, but for every Sens team you've got the Blue Jackets. AFAIK the move for Carter was lauded at the time and now it's a distant memory. Sometimes things have to line up correctly for things to work. Like I said, I don't think anyone expected James to drop off and get concussed (or whatever) early on in the season. I wonder what would happen if Anderson was injured for the same length of time that James was. If they went into a tailspin because of it would we say it's Paul Maclean's fault, or the GM's fault?

I also don't think anyone expected Kulemin to regress as much as he has. There are some unknowns out there and to an extent it's a roll of the dice. Like Burke said, you bet on players. I would've bet on Kulemin last year, but definitely not this year thus far. I can also understand giving Jonas a fair shake in order to see what the team has in him instead of picking up a vet. I think right now it makes a lot of sense to pick up a goaltender, but I can see why they've held back until now.

Ron Wilson: I don't care one way or another if he stays. He could be an issue, but for me personally, I'm not upset that he started the season as coach and I won't be upset if he finishes the season as coach. Maybe we do need a mid-season change now that we're out of the playofs, but if he doesn't get axed if he misses the playoffs then I'll be more miffed about it.

 

[Bender]

No point bashing Burke. We can just let the team performance speak for itself.

4 years in and the goal tending is still a mess, the team is bound to miss the play offs again.

For all the talk of improvement this team is no pace for only 2 pts ahead of last year. 

He has 7.5 million in contracts sitting in the press box.

He also has Lombardi and Connolly at another 8 million contributing cool 40 pts so far this season forming one of the most ineffective, expensive 3rd lines ever seen.

Given all this he has one of the most expensive, biggest, entourage of executives around him. Also one of the most expensive coaches and certainly the most expensive goal tending coach in the league.

The new owners will certainly take a good hard look at what this guy is bringing.

The sad fact is, you take a look another team like the Sens, they had 74 points last year, were worse off than the Leafs, and then a shrewd move here and there (new coach, new goalie among others) and suddenly they're in the mix for playoffs.  The funny thing is, Ottawa didn't even expect to be this good so there's no panic in them to make the playoffs this year.  The Leafs have been trying to build for 3-4 years now and we're arguably BEHIND the Sens in terms of overall progress.  A quick turnaround can happen, Burke has fumbled the ball on this.

The Sens were not as bad as their record last year.  Clouston totally destroyed the confidence in that room IMHO.  Also, they never reached the low of the Leafs because they still had premier talent in place even during their lean years, and they just had to build around it.

The Leafs don't have that premier talent.  It's supposed to be Phanuef and Kessel, but even then, it's not really enough.

So Clouston was an issue?  There's many on this board that think Wilson is an issue too.  A coach can have a huge effect on a team, and they're a prime example.  The Leafs have top end talent, Kessel, Lupul, Grabovski and Phaneuf have played well enough.  Aside from Karlsson and Spezza having a great year, they're no more ahead in terms of top end talent.

How about solid goaltending? Anderson at .913 SV% does help a lot.