The Core

[BrownRolo]

I think it's time to really move on from this core. Matthews and Marner just can not get it done in this market come playoffs. They can't handle the pressure or whatever. Matthews will get a boatload in a trade. An American who was MVP last season and Rocket winner. Kings would be a great fit for him. Marner would bring in a huge return as well. Just makes sense to cash out while we can. We can retool and get some young players for next year. Sign Tom Wilson and let's go change the attitude of this team. Give fans something to be excited about again. Bring Boudreau in. We have been more than patient with this core. They've had their opportunities. It's time to move on.

 

[BrownRolo]

I'm talking playoffs, Matthews does what he does every year and normally the excuse is he's playing hurt.

Again TO could only score 2 goals, Matthews zero, superstars show up when it counts, no excuses well maybe occasionally but certainly not consistently like Matthews.

TO isn't going to do well in the playoffs relying on Matthews and he's only signed for one more year, time to move on.

Thank you for the post.  This is very enlightening.  I appreciate getting the perspective of the Leafs from the other side of the bell curve.

These are the same type of posters who then, years later say, "why did they give up on Kessel, see what a force he was in those 2 Cup wins? Why did they give up on Kadri, see what a force he was in that Cup win?". You can't win with these haters. Grass is always greener on the other side

It's almost like when those players were traded they went to new teams, with new coaches and new teammates. Nobody is saying these guys suck. It's just it isn't working here. The current mix is just not getting it done. It's time to move on.

 

[Zee]

I think it's time to really move on from this core. Matthews and Marner just can not get it done in this market come playoffs. They can't handle the pressure or whatever. Matthews will get a boatload in a trade. An American who was MVP last season and Rocket winner. Kings would be a great fit for him. Marner would bring in a huge return as well. Just makes sense to cash out while we can. We can retool and get some young players for next year. Sign Tom Wilson and let's go change the attitude of this team. Give fans something to be excited about again. Bring Boudreau in. We have been more than patient with this core. They've had their opportunities. It's time to move on.

Nothing says playoff success like Bruce Boudreau

 

[Bill33]

I understand the frustration. It's just that I can't get behind the idea that playoff success is the most important bar in keeping a core group together. There's just too much randomness -  injuries, officiating, voodoo goaltending, etc. Florida beating both Boston and Toronto is pretty much perfect evidence of it.

I think the best strategy is to keep a core group together that has the best potential of getting to the postseason, and tinker around the edges, and hope for a good matchup/showing, and some calls and bounces. That's pretty much what's in place.

I know the overreactions are going to come fast and furious, but I think moving any of the core 3 (I don't consider Tavares a key part of the equation any longer) makes near term success less likely than more, imo.

And I like Dubas. He hasn't been mistake free. But outside goaltending, I've liked his FA pickups and how he goes about doing business. Keefe, however, can go. A new voice in the room wouldn't be a bad thing.

 

[Arn]

I understand the frustration. It's just that I can't get behind the idea that playoff success is the most important bar in keeping a core group together. There's just too much randomness -  injuries, officiating, voodoo goaltending, etc. Florida beating both Boston and Toronto is pretty much perfect evidence of it.

I think the best strategy is to keep a core group together that has the best potential of getting to the postseason, and tinker around the edges, and hope for a good matchup/showing, and some calls and bounces. That's pretty much what's in place.

I know the overreactions are going to come fast and furious, but I think moving any of the core 3 (I don't consider Tavares a key part of the equation any longer) makes near term success less likely than more, imo.

And I like Dubas. He hasn't been mistake free. But outside goaltending, I've liked his FA pickups and how he goes about doing business. Keefe, however, can go. A new voice in the room wouldn't be a bad thing.

Yeah, I think I?d see what options are there to replace Keefe. The one who springs to mind that I?d have really liked is maybe Trotz but that?s not going to happen now.

Dubas should stay. He has a lot of scope to make a lot of changes with a lot of expiring contracts etc.

In terms of playing changes, I actually really like Nylander, but unfortunately for him Matthews is a one season removed Hart winner, Marner is a Selke finalist. Tavares is probably unmovable. So that makes Nylander ?expendable? due to his ability and his contract. I could see him packed with Brodie or something for a younger ?stud? D man to balance out the way the roster is constructed and I could get on board with such a move.

I?d love us to get ROR signed.

 

[azzurri63]

I think it's time to really move on from this core. Matthews and Marner just can not get it done in this market come playoffs. They can't handle the pressure or whatever. Matthews will get a boatload in a trade. An American who was MVP last season and Rocket winner. Kings would be a great fit for him. Marner would bring in a huge return as well. Just makes sense to cash out while we can. We can retool and get some young players for next year. Sign Tom Wilson and let's go change the attitude of this team. Give fans something to be excited about again. Bring Boudreau in. We have been more than patient with this core. They've had their opportunities. It's time to move on.

I said that last year and nothing changed and come playoffs nothing changed. Not too sure what some people are watching on here. In my opinion TB was the better team and in this series we were. Goaltending was the reason we won and lost in both rounds. Having said that I complained about this core not being able to get it done and nothing has changed my opinion on that. Listening to Marner after elimination games makes me wanna puke. Him and Matthews aren't playoff performers. U take away Marners 3 point game in a 7-2 rout in the first series what else did he do and when Matthews goes scoreless in 5 games but some are happy with his play c'mon. He gets paid to score goals and handsomely and doesn't produce. Game 3 in this series was the last straw with this heartless bunch. Totally mailed it in in probably the biggest game of the year. Enough said and for those saying he's injured quit making excuses for these overpaid underachievers.

I agree Hobarth make some moves because I can honestly see us losing Matthews and getting sfa. Like I said before they'll probably throw more money at him and in my opinion not deserving. Like Bieska just said what kind of team are they trying to build a regular season team or a team to win 4 rounds. Can't argue we aren't a great regular season team but not built for the playoffs.

 

[ZBBM]

I think it's time to really move on from this core. Matthews and Marner just can not get it done in this market come playoffs. They can't handle the pressure or whatever. Matthews will get a boatload in a trade. An American who was MVP last season and Rocket winner. Kings would be a great fit for him. Marner would bring in a huge return as well. Just makes sense to cash out while we can. We can retool and get some young players for next year. Sign Tom Wilson and let's go change the attitude of this team. Give fans something to be excited about again. Bring Boudreau in. We have been more than patient with this core. They've had their opportunities. It's time to move on.

I said that last year and nothing changed and come playoffs nothing changed. Not too sure what some people are watching on here. In my opinion TB was the better team and in this series we were. Goaltending was the reason we won and lost in both rounds. Having said that I complained about this core not being able to get it done and nothing has changed my opinion on that. Listening to Marner after elimination games makes me wanna puke. Him and Matthews aren't playoff performers. U take away Marners 3 point game in a 7-2 rout in the first series what else did he do and when Matthews goes scoreless in 5 games but some are happy with his play c'mon. He gets paid to score goals and handsomely and doesn't produce. Game 3 in this series was the last straw with this heartless bunch. Totally mailed it in in probably the biggest game of the year. Enough said and for those saying he's injured quit making excuses for these overpaid underachievers.

I agree Hobarth make some moves because I can honestly see us losing Matthews and getting sfa. Like I said before they'll probably throw more money at him and in my opinion not deserving. Like Bieska just said what kind of team are they trying to build a regular season team or a team to win 4 rounds. Can't argue we aren't a great regular season team but not built for the playoffs.

They could be built for the playoffs with better coaching, though.  Keefe should have been telling them to interfere, grab sticks like Gudas did on the GWG, all of that, and then dare the refs to call only us on it.

The way penalties are called (read: not called) in the playoffs seems designed to smother skill.  The coaches need to have a plan from Day 1 of training camp on how to transition to this reality.  Same with tighter checking and all of that.  They have regular season mode figured out.  They need to be ready to transition to playoff mode.  Apparently some teams have figured this out.  Not us.

 

[mr grieves]

I think it's time to really move on from this core. Matthews and Marner just can not get it done in this market come playoffs. They can't handle the pressure or whatever. Matthews will get a boatload in a trade. An American who was MVP last season and Rocket winner. Kings would be a great fit for him. Marner would bring in a huge return as well. Just makes sense to cash out while we can. We can retool and get some young players for next year. Sign Tom Wilson and let's go change the attitude of this team. Give fans something to be excited about again. Bring Boudreau in. We have been more than patient with this core. They've had their opportunities. It's time to move on.

I said that last year and nothing changed and come playoffs nothing changed. Not too sure what some people are watching on here. In my opinion TB was the better team and in this series we were. Goaltending was the reason we won and lost in both rounds. Having said that I complained about this core not being able to get it done and nothing has changed my opinion on that. Listening to Marner after elimination games makes me wanna puke. Him and Matthews aren't playoff performers. U take away Marners 3 point game in a 7-2 rout in the first series what else did he do and when Matthews goes scoreless in 5 games but some are happy with his play c'mon. He gets paid to score goals and handsomely and doesn't produce. Game 3 in this series was the last straw with this heartless bunch. Totally mailed it in in probably the biggest game of the year. Enough said and for those saying he's injured quit making excuses for these overpaid underachievers.

I agree Hobarth make some moves because I can honestly see us losing Matthews and getting sfa. Like I said before they'll probably throw more money at him and in my opinion not deserving. Like Bieska just said what kind of team are they trying to build a regular season team or a team to win 4 rounds. Can't argue we aren't a great regular season team but not built for the playoffs.

They could be built for the playoffs with better coaching, though.  Keefe should have been telling them to interfere, grab sticks like Gudas did on the GWG, all of that, and then dare the refs to call only us on it.

The way penalties are called (read: not called) in the playoffs seems designed to smother skill.  The coaches need to have a plan from Day 1 of training camp on how to transition to this reality.  Same with tighter checking and all of that.  They have regular season mode figured out.  They need to be ready to transition to playoff mode.  Apparently some teams have figured this out.  Not us.

Beyond in-game tactics, I think it'd be useful to try a voice that's proven capable of managing and getting performances out of stars. Getting commitment to a structure is something Keefe's accomplished, but he's not someone who's succeeded in pushing whatever buttons one does to get 'more than the sum of their parts' performances. Whatever they conjured in games 3 and 4 in Tampa was strikingly absent in R2G3, and Keefe seemed at a loss. It'd be nice to have had the chance to see this assemblage of talent under a coach who could push those buttons before the contracts were up for extension and NMC/NTCs kicked in, but that's not how the timing's worked out. 

 

[hobarth]

I think the core goes beyond the big 4 and I really can't see any good reason to keep even the next tier of TO's core, this would be players who've been around for 3 or more years.

Rielly, Brodie and Holl make $14.5 mil. per year, they've been around forever and they aren't good enough to make up for TO's spending so much on the forwards , Rielly had a great 1st round but outside of a few heroic moments in the 2nd round basically disappeared. Brodie has never been worth $5 mil., Holl definitely appears to be going down hill. Seattle's top paid d-man makes $4.6 mil. and their entire d corp makes $20 mil., they are still in the playoffs.

Kerfoot is the Swiss Army Knife of the overpaid, he somehow coaxed $3.5 Mil per out of Dubie, brilliant for him, not so much for Dubie. I have an idea that might help Dubie in the future, don't pay any forward from $3.2 to $3.5 mil. per year like he has for Kerfoot, Kappy and Andersson.

Seattle is still in the playoffs and TO isn't, another core member needs to go, Keefe couldn't coach his way out of a paper bag, it's pathetic. How many times have we heard/seen TO play down to it's opposition, how many times are we truly wondering if TO can beat Anaheim, a coach needs to motivate/coach his team to become consistent, to play to their level of competence on a far more consistent basis, Keefe has never been able to. I don't know if what I'm looking for is possible out of this group but I know Keefe will never find it.

Dubie has looked for character and d at every TDL but he doesn't look for offensive depth and he sure never finds it. TO has issues scoring in the playoffs, year after year, but Dubie will add more lateral d-men like McCabe and then be exasperated when TO again can't score enough to win. The question is, does TO always faces hot goalies or is the question, is TO's offense only regular season superior, d wins Championships, probably, but only if a team can score, TO consistently hasn't scored enough to win no matter how good the d. Dubie needs better glasses so he can actually see what TO needs, scoring depth, time for him to go.

That Jarnkrok, what a waste of roster space and Cap dollars, he had an exceptional regular season for him so maybe some dum dum GM can be coaxed to take him off of TO's hands, get rid of him, ASAP. Kerfoot had a decent year in 2021/22, he should have been moved, too.

Don't resign Kampf, unless it's for league minimum, definitely no more.

TO couldn't score in the playoffs but sat Timmins and Gustafsson, played Holl, Brodie and Schenn who couldn't in any way help TO score, brilliant.

I loved Kessel, liked Kadri but found him too floater prone to be over the top about him. I feel/felt that TO should've gone far in the playoffs during the Matthews eras first 3 years and Kessel was the superior support that was needed, Kessel on Pitts was the difference and he could've been with TO. Kadri should've been a winger with TO, he was an essential support player with Colorado, the results for Colorado this year definitely points towards how valuable Kadri was during his career year.   

 

[ZBBM]

A better first-take postmortem is by Drain over at MLHS:

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2023/05/13/how-the-2023-leafs-were-defeated-and-what-comes-next/

Note that he appropriately isn't too dogmatic about what should happen. 

From my perspective the Leafs did the bare minimum they needed to do this playoff: got out of R1.  Is it good enough?  No, but it is a step forward.  Is it good enough to save Dubas's job?  Read Drain on that.

I wonder how we would all feel if, as everyone expected, Boston had beaten Florida, and then went on to beat us 4-1 in R2.  Would you have been surprised?  I wouldn't have.  Boston looked invincible going into the postseason.  (I'm not too happy right now, but I bet I am happier than every Bruin fan on the face of the earth.)

This R2 really stings because the Leafs should have won it, period.  That doesn't mean that I think they had a pass to the SCF.  Both Carolina and NJ had better records than us.

 

[Bender]

A better first-take postmortem is by Drain over at MLHS:

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2023/05/13/how-the-2023-leafs-were-defeated-and-what-comes-next/

Note that he appropriately isn't too dogmatic about what should happen. 

From my perspective the Leafs did the bare minimum they needed to do this playoff: got out of R1.  Is it good enough?  No, but it is a step forward.  Is it good enough to save Dubas's job?  Read Drain on that.

I wonder how we would all feel if, as everyone expected, Boston had beaten Florida, and then went on to beat us 4-1 in R2.  Would you have been surprised?  I wouldn't have.  Boston looked invincible going into the postseason.  (I'm not too happy right now, but I bet I am happier than every Bruin fan on the face of the earth.)

This R2 really stings because the Leafs should have won it, period.  That doesn't mean that I think they had a pass to the SCF.  Both Carolina and NJ had better records than us.

I think all we wanted really was the round to end competitively in at least a 4-2 fashion. I think if we lose in 7 you don't get the same kind of off-season change we're probably going to see after losing in 5.

 

[hobarth]

A better first-take postmortem is by Drain over at MLHS:

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2023/05/13/how-the-2023-leafs-were-defeated-and-what-comes-next/

Note that he appropriately isn't too dogmatic about what should happen. 

From my perspective the Leafs did the bare minimum they needed to do this playoff: got out of R1.  Is it good enough?  No, but it is a step forward.  Is it good enough to save Dubas's job?  Read Drain on that.

I wonder how we would all feel if, as everyone expected, Boston had beaten Florida, and then went on to beat us 4-1 in R2.  Would you have been surprised?  I wouldn't have.  Boston looked invincible going into the postseason.  (I'm not too happy right now, but I bet I am happier than every Bruin fan on the face of the earth.)

This R2 really stings because the Leafs should have won it, period.  That doesn't mean that I think they had a pass to the SCF.  Both Carolina and NJ had better records than us.

I think all we wanted really was the round to end competitively in at least a 4-2 fashion. I think if we lose in 7 you don't get the same kind of off-season change we're probably going to see after losing in 5.

Beyond that, I felt and I think most Leaf fans feel that TO was outplayed by TB, games of being outshot 2 to one by TB who were playing with Hedman in and out of the lineup really says that TO's lineup is flawed and needs a serious retool. Too much money being spent on too few being the first and most obvious problem and that core is soon going to be looking for more money. If we could see the level of commitment from Marner as we saw from his last contract negotiation, I'm sure TO would have done better in past playoffs.

I wanted Boston to win their 1st series and TO to beat them in the next. 

 

[4EVRLEAFAN]

When you pelt a goalie with 53 shots, 90% of the time you win that game, I really think we're witnessing something special from Bobrovsky, and Samsonov did let in weak ones in game one and two, as mentioned above we got out goalied plain and simple, hopefully Woll grows into the goalie we need. That being said I also agree that some of the core needs to go.

 

[hobarth]

The prevailing wisdom amongst Leaf fans is that TO gets out goalied every year in the playoffs, every year, unlikely I'd say, too many peripheral players, not enough quality shots off of rebounds or from the slot. I've felt especially in this playoff that the quality of TO's offense was poor, Matthews constantly taking distance shots and never going to the net wasn't working like it has against Anaheim and Detroit during the regular season, TO's core can't/won't adapt year after year so TO gets goalied out of the playoffs.

I know we do occasionally see Matthews parked in front of the opposition's net, what we needed from him and others was for him to carry the puck to the opposition's net using his size to impose his will, I question his will, his character.

 

[azzurri63]

The prevailing wisdom amongst Leaf fans is that TO gets out goalied every year in the playoffs, every year, unlikely I'd say, too many peripheral players, not enough quality shots off of rebounds or from the slot. I've felt especially in this playoff that the quality of TO's offense was poor, Matthews constantly taking distance shots and never going to the net wasn't working like it has against Anaheim and Detroit during the regular season, TO's core can't/won't adapt year after year so TO gets goalied out of the playoffs.

I know we do occasionally see Matthews parked in front of the opposition's net, what we needed from him and others was for him to carry the puck to the opposition's net using his size to impose his will, I question his will, his character.

That's why you unfortunately ship him off. I am completely dumbfounded by some on here who say get on him and get an extension. I just cringe at the amount of money they will probably give him. Personally I don't think a raise is even warranted. They haven't proved a single thing in the playoffs and were paid handsomely yet we'll probably stay with the same core and screwup our cap even more. We've been unable to bring in a bonafide goalie or D man because of our cap. Make some changes and if not I guarantee you guys will be talking about the same disappointment next year. It aint working. How much more do we have to see to figure that out.

 

[rdowdall]

The prevailing wisdom amongst Leaf fans is that TO gets out goalied every year in the playoffs, every year, unlikely I'd say, too many peripheral players, not enough quality shots off of rebounds or from the slot. I've felt especially in this playoff that the quality of TO's offense was poor, Matthews constantly taking distance shots and never going to the net wasn't working like it has against Anaheim and Detroit during the regular season, TO's core can't/won't adapt year after year so TO gets goalied out of the playoffs.

I know we do occasionally see Matthews parked in front of the opposition's net, what we needed from him and others was for him to carry the puck to the opposition's net using his size to impose his will, I question his will, his character.

That's why you unfortunately ship him off. I am completely dumbfounded by some on here who say get on him and get an extension. I just cringe at the amount of money they will probably give him. Personally I don't think a raise is even warranted. They haven't proved a single thing in the playoffs and were paid handsomely yet we'll probably stay with the same core and screwup our cap even more. We've been unable to bring in a bonafide goalie or D man because of our cap. Make some changes and if not I guarantee you guys will be talking about the same disappointment next year. It aint working. How much more do we have to see to figure that out.

So just because the Leafs trade Matthews, that doesn't necessarily guarantee the following:
a) That the Leafs will make the playoffs again
b) That they will perform better in the playoffs.

Which team is going to trade assets for Matthews?  If he is as horrible a player as you say, do you think the Leafs are going to fool other teams into giving them this amazing hockey player who will guarantee playoff wins for the Leafs in exchange for Matthews who doesn't do anything for a team wins at all?  How exactly are the Leafs selling that trade?

Right now the Leafs make the playoffs.  They have made it each year that Matthews has been on the team.  Are you going to be happy to going back to not making the playoffs at all?  Just because something changes does not guarantee that the change will be positive for the Leafs, so it is possible that once you trade Matthews, all of sudden the Leafs stop making the playoffs altogether.  There are two possible ways that trading Matthews could go, and in all your talk, all you ever focus on is this hypothetical better scenario where the Leafs win the cup just by trading out Matthews. What if that doesn't happen?

 

[ZBBM]

Matthews has a couple of Rockets, a Calder, and a Hart.  He's grown into a good defensive player.  No, he hasn't taken the team on his shoulders and led us to Gloryland.  Yet.  But he is an elite talent.  You don't walk away from that.

 

[azzurri63]

The prevailing wisdom amongst Leaf fans is that TO gets out goalied every year in the playoffs, every year, unlikely I'd say, too many peripheral players, not enough quality shots off of rebounds or from the slot. I've felt especially in this playoff that the quality of TO's offense was poor, Matthews constantly taking distance shots and never going to the net wasn't working like it has against Anaheim and Detroit during the regular season, TO's core can't/won't adapt year after year so TO gets goalied out of the playoffs.

I know we do occasionally see Matthews parked in front of the opposition's net, what we needed from him and others was for him to carry the puck to the opposition's net using his size to impose his will, I question his will, his character.

That's why you unfortunately ship him off. I am completely dumbfounded by some on here who say get on him and get an extension. I just cringe at the amount of money they will probably give him. Personally I don't think a raise is even warranted. They haven't proved a single thing in the playoffs and were paid handsomely yet we'll probably stay with the same core and screwup our cap even more. We've been unable to bring in a bonafide goalie or D man because of our cap. Make some changes and if not I guarantee you guys will be talking about the same disappointment next year. It aint working. How much more do we have to see to figure that out.

So just because the Leafs trade Matthews, that doesn't necessarily guarantee the following:
a) That the Leafs will make the playoffs again
b) That they will perform better in the playoffs.

Which team is going to trade assets for Matthews?  If he is as horrible a player as you say, do you think the Leafs are going to fool other teams into giving them this amazing hockey player who will guarantee playoff wins for the Leafs in exchange for Matthews who doesn't do anything for a team wins at all?  How exactly are the Leafs selling that trade?

Right now the Leafs make the playoffs.  They have made it each year that Matthews has been on the team.  Are you going to be happy to going back to not making the playoffs at all?  Just because something changes does not guarantee that the change will be positive for the Leafs, so it is possible that once you trade Matthews, all of sudden the Leafs stop making the playoffs altogether.  There are two possible ways that trading Matthews could go, and in all your talk, all you ever focus on is this hypothetical better scenario where the Leafs win the cup just by trading out Matthews. What if that doesn't happen?

Who says he?s a horrible player. Where have I actually stated that. My beef and it has been ever since we paid him and Marner top dollar before proving anything. If you look and I?ve stated this before at other teams with less talent going further than us. If they trade him is it 100% guaranteed they will miss the playoffs? Nobody can answer that. Will they be worse off? Who know all depends on the return. My biggest issue with the two stars is they don?t perform well in the playoffs or under pressure. Is that going to change? Who knows. My question is how long do you keep going with it until enough is enough? Trading a star not only helps us maybe fill in some holes but it may help us cap wise. Team was in cap hell and if we resign him to an even bigger contract along with Nylander we?ll be there again until Tavares comes off the books. The core and heavy contracts for the 4 of them in my opinion hasn?t worked so maybe a change in philosophy is needed. That?s why I say somebody needs to go. You?d be surprised with a well rounded team with some grit and heart how far they can go. Talent isn?t the only thing that wins you a cup.

 

[AtomicMapleLeaf]

The Oil should trade McJesus and that German guy, because they lost.

 

[Kin]

The prevailing wisdom amongst Leaf fans is that TO gets out goalied every year in the playoffs

I like how you say this like it's some crazy fan theory and not what we've all seen happen plain as day.

Since Matthews/Marner/Nylander have been on this team the Leafs have played in seven Best of 7 series'. In every single one, all seven, the goalie they faced was a Vezina winner.