The Core

[Kin]

You eluded on the site different forum I believe that we took that game to overtime and were ok with that. It didn't go to OT because of M&M as they were a complete no show that game.

It's not a question of being "ok" with it. It's just a statement of fact that they didn't lose the game by much and that it was a close series, no matter how much you want to pretend that players being good every night, which yes, is what showing up means is a realistic standard. Your definition of a "bad game" that you'd find acceptable seems to be one where guys show up, hit everything in sight, drive play but just don't get pucks in the net. THAT IS NOT PLAYING BADLY. Guys have some bad games. "Not showing up" is having a bad game. Everyone has them. Not having them is not a realistic standard.

 

[Kin]

 
That's why I mentioned that in the Red Wings case, the team also had to make changes, as well as the player had to have some growth, but neither of those teams changes involved trading away a player whose talent level allows them to score 60+ goals in the regular season.

I don't think we disagree here much but again this is where I come back to, like, did those Wings teams need to be different? Or did they need to get better? Like, a lot of people like to mention the Primeau/Coffey for Shanahan trade which, in addition to being noteworthy for being a major NHL trade involving three big pieces who are all from Toronto, is often cited as being why they went from also ran to cup contender but is that because Shanahan was tough? Or playoff capable? Or was it because he's probably one of the top 5 LW to ever play and Primeau was a good but unspectacular defensive C?

And with regards to adapting your game, I sort of agree with you but I think it more needs to be said that it's a constantly moving target. It's not "How does Player X adapt to Playoff Hockey" where Playoff Hockey is this specific thing that requires a certain skillset/mentality but rather "How does Player X adapt his game to playing Pittsburgh this year in the Playoffs" or Tampa the next year or whoever with needs/requirements changing to meet that particular group of players. It's why guys look great one year and not great the next. If simply adapting to "playoff hockey" was a thing that wouldn't happen but sometimes, the other team just has your number.

 

[hobarth]

There's simply too much money being spent on too few players, there's no true depth on TO only fill. The ridiculous allocation of funds needs to be rethought, AM and then MM looking for raises to possibly $15 mil. annually simply means TO will continue to be Cap choked in the future.

Discussing what happened prior to the Cap has no relevance to now.

 

[Kin]

There's simply too much money being spent on too few players, there's no true depth on TO only fill. The ridiculous allocation of funds needs to be rethought, AM and then MM looking for raises to possibly $15 mil. annually simply means TO will continue to be Cap choked in the future.

Discussing what happened prior to the Cap has no relevance to now.

This really isn't a Matthews/Marner issue but really just an issue of not having developed good players behind them. If Matthews were making 10 million and Marner were making 9, which would be insanely team friendly deals for both of them, the Leafs would have an extra 3.5 million a year. 3.5 million would not make a substantial difference to the team's ability to add depth.

Add in that Nylander is on a very team friendly deal at the moment and the reality is that 29 million for all three is pretty reasonable.

 

[ZBBM]

See my thing is, they didn't lose because of defence. They couldn't score enough again. I think they have the cash to grab a D man and I really hope that Knies and JT are our top 2 LWs next season. Leafs need to also play the kids in more prominent roles. Like if Robertson makes the team, play him top 6 and leave him there. Same with McMann or whoever. Put them in the roles they played on the Marlies.
And I agree, I like Keefe but I think they need a new voice. Not a guy reluctant to take Marner away from Matthews.

Yes and no. They didn't lose because of their defensive play, but part of their struggles was due to not having a 2nd dman they trusted defensively who was good at carrying and distributing the puck. I don't think that's someone who they need to move a core guy to acquire - really, we're looking at a 2nd pairing type with good speed and vision - but, definitely an area that cost them. It was something they lacked all season (Sandin wasn't a particularly good skater, which limited him to 3rd pair duties), and it really showed when teams got in hard on the forecheck.

Sandin would've been eaten alive. They need another puck mover. Not guys that treat it like a grenade, ala Holl.

Sandin (and Lilejgren) got badly burned against Boston's forecheck back in Feb or something, and I think that sealed his fate with Dubas.  But part of that is lack of experience.  Otherwise he's exactly what people now say the Leafs lacked: a Rielly-lite guy who can dance the line, thread pucks through, etc.  And on the cheap.  Dubas made a pretty big mistake there.

 

[clark17]

    The leafs have a solid team due to Dubas and the draft and development plan in place. They have a competitive team, and a perennial contender. They have a solid regular season yet fail to perform in the playoffs. The reason is two fold. First Keefe !  He gets outcoached and the refs hate him so no calls go our way. Further he wants to be the reason they win so there?s no continuity in the lines or lineup while contending teams play set lines that have played together for months. 
      Then Keefe won?t play the guys like Simmonds who would stymie the Bennett Goudas etc type behaviour that all teams decide is the way to beat the leafs. Guys like marner are running scared and ineffective while Bennett etc thrive. It?s a joke that Keefe has an nhl job.
      Then there?s Shanahan. Has anyone heard a word about the idiocy called refereeing or the decisions of the dopes department that always favour the opponent?  What is  Shanahans job if not to get after Bettman and the league ?  We need Davidson at least and Quennville behind the bench.
      Dubas has more than done his job. The support from Keefe in particular has been non existent as he doesn?t use the resources available in the manner best for the team.
        Keefe should have been fired last year ?? now it?s way overdue as he?s learned nothing from his mistakes

 

[ZBBM]

    The leafs have a solid team due to Dubas and the draft and development plan in place. They have a competitive team, and a perennial contender. They have a solid regular season yet fail to perform in the playoffs. The reason is two fold. First Keefe !  He gets outcoached and the refs hate him so no calls go our way. Further he wants to be the reason they win so there?s no continuity in the lines or lineup while contending teams play set lines that have played together for months. 
      Then Keefe won?t play the guys like Simmonds who would stymie the Bennett Goudas etc type behaviour that all teams decide is the way to beat the leafs. Guys like marner are running scared and ineffective while Bennett etc thrive. It?s a joke that Keefe has an nhl job.
      Then there?s Shanahan. Has anyone heard a word about the idiocy called refereeing or the decisions of the dopes department that always favour the opponent?  What is  Shanahans job if not to get after Bettman and the league ?  We need Davidson at least and Quennville behind the bench.
      Dubas has more than done his job. The support from Keefe in particular has been non existent as he doesn?t use the resources available in the manner best for the team.
        Keefe should have been fired last year ?? now it?s way overdue as he?s learned nothing from his mistakes

I agree that Keefe need to go.  The trouble is that he's Dubas's guy and Dubas was not going to fire him last year.  The question is, if Dubas is re-hired, whether Shanny or MLSE is going to attach a provision to it saying welcome back, but only if you axe your friend Sheldon.  It's a tough ask.

 

[rdowdall]

I don't think we disagree here much but again this is where I come back to, like, did those Wings teams need to be different? Or did they need to get better? Like, a lot of people like to mention the Primeau/Coffey for Shanahan trade which, in addition to being noteworthy for being a major NHL trade involving three big pieces who are all from Toronto, is often cited as being why they went from also ran to cup contender but is that because Shanahan was tough? Or playoff capable? Or was it because he's probably one of the top 5 LW to ever play and Primeau was a good but unspectacular defensive C?

That's fair, and it's possible with some bounces going one way or another, Detroit could have one a cup sooner, but that is not how it shook out.  You just have to look at the randomness that comes with winning a cup to see that so much comes into play in order to be successful.  That's why it's important for the players.  It's not easy to do and it takes the whole team. 

For example, look at Detroit and Dallas in the '90s.  Detroit went to back-to-back cups in 95 and 96 and won both.  Dallas went to back-to-back cups in '99 and '00 and won one.  Why did it play out like that?  There are too many variables to just pin it on one thing or another.

You know when it comes to players themselves, is it Joe Thorton's fault that he never won a cup?  What about Marcel Dionne?  I think when you put it on specific players and say that they can't do it, I think it's a way of justifying the outcome and trying to assign blame where there are probably multiple areas where blame can go.   

And with regards to adapting your game, I sort of agree with you but I think it more needs to be said that it's a constantly moving target. It's not "How does Player X adapt to Playoff Hockey" where Playoff Hockey is this specific thing that requires a certain skillset/mentality but rather "How does Player X adapt his game to playing Pittsburgh this year in the Playoffs" or Tampa the next year or whoever with needs/requirements changing to meet that particular group of players. It's why guys look great one year and not great the next. If simply adapting to "playoff hockey" was a thing that wouldn't happen but sometimes, the other team just has your number.

Yeah, I agree with that.  I imagine there are some boilerplate things that apply to every series that a player might need to learn, like managing your emotions better, as well as some things that might need to be adapted to a particular series based on the opponent.

 

[Kin]

I don't think we disagree here much but again this is where I come back to, like, did those Wings teams need to be different? Or did they need to get better? Like, a lot of people like to mention the Primeau/Coffey for Shanahan trade which, in addition to being noteworthy for being a major NHL trade involving three big pieces who are all from Toronto, is often cited as being why they went from also ran to cup contender but is that because Shanahan was tough? Or playoff capable? Or was it because he's probably one of the top 5 LW to ever play and Primeau was a good but unspectacular defensive C?

That's fair, and it's possible with some bounces going one way or another, Detroit could have one a cup sooner, but that is not how it shook out.  You just have to look at the randomness that comes with winning a cup to see that so much comes into play in order to be successful.  That's why it's important for the players.  It's not easy to do and it takes the whole team. 

For example, look at Detroit and Dallas in the '90s.  Detroit went to back-to-back cups in 95 and 96 and won both.  Dallas went to back-to-back cups in '99 and '00 and won one.  Why did it play out like that?  There are too many variables to just pin it on one thing or another.

You know when it comes to players themselves, is it Joe Thorton's fault that he never won a cup?  What about Marcel Dionne?  I think when you put it on specific players and say that they can't do it, I think it's a way of justifying the outcome and trying to assign blame where there are probably multiple areas where blame can go.   

In a way I kind of think it's a bit like the Draft Lottery. The balls are drawn at random. All you can do is give yourself as many possible ping pong balls as possible. So maybe the Red Wings trading for Shanahan got them to 17% to win the Cup up from 13% or whatever and it just hit both years. You're right, there's just no way to know why it plays out the way it does.

With regards to Thornton or someone like Tavares, guys who were such highly touted prospects, I think it definitely shows why the "This guy just doesn't have the X factor" stuff is such nonsense. Think of all the times they've talked to management types. Coaches, GMs and so on. The people who think there's some mental toughness element to playoff success they lacked have to then also be of the opinion that, basically, every single hockey person in the world was wrong about them. That whatever it is that lets someone be successful in high pressure situations was entirely undetectable by every single person whose job it is to evaluate hockey players for a living.

You're right, it's nonsense. It's the kind of thing people on the outside say to try and seem smart.

 

[Kin]

    The leafs have a solid team due to Dubas and the draft and development plan in place. They have a competitive team, and a perennial contender. They have a solid regular season yet fail to perform in the playoffs. The reason is two fold. First Keefe !  He gets outcoached and the refs hate him so no calls go our way. Further he wants to be the reason they win so there?s no continuity in the lines or lineup while contending teams play set lines that have played together for months. 
      Then Keefe won?t play the guys like Simmonds who would stymie the Bennett Goudas etc type behaviour that all teams decide is the way to beat the leafs. Guys like marner are running scared and ineffective while Bennett etc thrive. It?s a joke that Keefe has an nhl job.
      Then there?s Shanahan. Has anyone heard a word about the idiocy called refereeing or the decisions of the dopes department that always favour the opponent?  What is  Shanahans job if not to get after Bettman and the league ?  We need Davidson at least and Quennville behind the bench.
      Dubas has more than done his job. The support from Keefe in particular has been non existent as he doesn?t use the resources available in the manner best for the team.
        Keefe should have been fired last year ?? now it?s way overdue as he?s learned nothing from his mistakes

I agree that Keefe need to go.  The trouble is that he's Dubas's guy and Dubas was not going to fire him last year.  The question is, if Dubas is re-hired, whether Shanny or MLSE is going to attach a provision to it saying welcome back, but only if you axe your friend Sheldon.  It's a tough ask.

So Keefe needs to be fired because the Refs hate him and he sometimes switches lines up?

 

[bustaheims]

Sandin (and Lilejgren) got badly burned against Boston's forecheck back in Feb or something, and I think that sealed his fate with Dubas.  But part of that is lack of experience.  Otherwise he's exactly what people now say the Leafs lacked: a Rielly-lite guy who can dance the line, thread pucks through, etc.  And on the cheap.  Dubas made a pretty big mistake there.

His skating isn't good enough to take on the responsibilities the team needs from him. He's good in the offensive zone, but, against a strong forecheck, he struggles to get it out of the defensive end. It's the latter that the team needs improvement in - moving the puck out of the zone. As Guilt Trip correctly points out, he would have been eaten alive by Florida's forecheck.

The Leafs need a guy who can skate the puck out efficiently against a heavy forecheck. Sandin is not that guy and may never be that guy.

 

[rdowdall]

Sandin (and Lilejgren) got badly burned against Boston's forecheck back in Feb or something, and I think that sealed his fate with Dubas.  But part of that is lack of experience.  Otherwise he's exactly what people now say the Leafs lacked: a Rielly-lite guy who can dance the line, thread pucks through, etc.  And on the cheap.  Dubas made a pretty big mistake there.

His skating isn't good enough to take on the responsibilities the team needs from him. He's good in the offensive zone, but, against a strong forecheck, he struggles to get it out of the defensive end. It's the latter that the team needs improvement in - moving the puck out of the zone. As Guilt Trip correctly points out, he would have been eaten alive by Florida's forecheck.

The Leafs need a guy who can skate the puck out efficiently against a heavy forecheck. Sandin is not that guy and may never be that guy.

Yeah, the more I think about the offseason, I think getting a real #1/#2 dman on the team would be nice.  I just don't know if they can do it.  I didn't hate their defence this year, and I thought they were pretty good from a goals-against point of view, but as you say an area of concern was their inability to stop the forecheck.

 

[hobarth]

Outside of some sort of motivational inducement I don't know if Keefe could do much more with what he had.

He could've had Nylander on the first PP unit, he could've played Gudtafsson and Timmins somewhere in the defensive pairings because TO's d-men that were played mostly, outside of Rielly, don't have any offense in them.

TO did and will, in future playoffs, need more goals from everywhere outside of the current top 4 during the playoffs, guaranteed offense requires Cap dollars, there isn't any extra.

Blame the coach, sure why not, this coach has TO accumulating 111 pts. in 2022/23, 115 pts. in 2021/22, 113 pts.(prorated) in 2020/21 and 95 prorated in 2019/20, he's TO's winningest coach ever.  TO's lack of depth has been an issue since he's been coaching TO, I don't doubt he has done the most that can be done with what he has/had.

This is on the players and the GM squarely, the coach will be a casualty but I doubt we'll see better results if a coaching change is the only significant change. 

 

[Arn]

I doubt we'll see better results if a coaching change is the only significant change. 

Well I hope for your sake we don?t or what the fuck will you have to whine on about

 

[Highlander]

I doubt we'll see better results if a coaching change is the only significant change. 

Well I hope for your sake we don?t or what the Frig will you have to whine on about

l

Hi Arn
Why not just take a billy club to him

 

[ZBBM]

Sandin (and Lilejgren) got badly burned against Boston's forecheck back in Feb or something, and I think that sealed his fate with Dubas.  But part of that is lack of experience.  Otherwise he's exactly what people now say the Leafs lacked: a Rielly-lite guy who can dance the line, thread pucks through, etc.  And on the cheap.  Dubas made a pretty big mistake there.

His skating isn't good enough to take on the responsibilities the team needs from him. He's good in the offensive zone, but, against a strong forecheck, he struggles to get it out of the defensive end. It's the latter that the team needs improvement in - moving the puck out of the zone. As Guilt Trip correctly points out, he would have been eaten alive by Florida's forecheck.

The Leafs need a guy who can skate the puck out efficiently against a heavy forecheck. Sandin is not that guy and may never be that guy.

I know we don't agree on this, but I don't agree.  I don't see the skating problems you're claiming.  They gave up on him too early.

And TBH pretty much every one of them got eaten alive by Florida's forecheck.  Honestly, the Leafs need to study up on playoff interference and how to make it work.  Everybody else uses it to slow down the kamikazes.

 

[Redleaf]

In real general terms ? I think the team needs more ?bite?

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

In real general terms ? I think the team needs more ?bite?

[youtube]MONBZYR-se8[/youtube]

 

[Bender]

Sandin (and Lilejgren) got badly burned against Boston's forecheck back in Feb or something, and I think that sealed his fate with Dubas.  But part of that is lack of experience.  Otherwise he's exactly what people now say the Leafs lacked: a Rielly-lite guy who can dance the line, thread pucks through, etc.  And on the cheap.  Dubas made a pretty big mistake there.

His skating isn't good enough to take on the responsibilities the team needs from him. He's good in the offensive zone, but, against a strong forecheck, he struggles to get it out of the defensive end. It's the latter that the team needs improvement in - moving the puck out of the zone. As Guilt Trip correctly points out, he would have been eaten alive by Florida's forecheck.

The Leafs need a guy who can skate the puck out efficiently against a heavy forecheck. Sandin is not that guy and may never be that guy.

I know we don't agree on this, but I don't agree.  I don't see the skating problems you're claiming.  They gave up on him too early.

And TBH pretty much every one of them got eaten alive by Florida's forecheck.  Honestly, the Leafs need to study up on playoff interference and how to make it work.  Everybody else uses it to slow down the kamikazes.

Sandin will be a good player. He got eaten alive as soon as he was traded. All those points but a massively negative player ar 5 on 5, which is where we lost.

Holl ran a pick and got called, Gudas didn't. The Leafs never get away woth shit. I also think this team doesn't have it in them to play a gritty game.

 

[bustaheims]

Sandin (and Lilejgren) got badly burned against Boston's forecheck back in Feb or something, and I think that sealed his fate with Dubas.  But part of that is lack of experience.  Otherwise he's exactly what people now say the Leafs lacked: a Rielly-lite guy who can dance the line, thread pucks through, etc.  And on the cheap.  Dubas made a pretty big mistake there.

His skating isn't good enough to take on the responsibilities the team needs from him. He's good in the offensive zone, but, against a strong forecheck, he struggles to get it out of the defensive end. It's the latter that the team needs improvement in - moving the puck out of the zone. As Guilt Trip correctly points out, he would have been eaten alive by Florida's forecheck.

The Leafs need a guy who can skate the puck out efficiently against a heavy forecheck. Sandin is not that guy and may never be that guy.

I know we don't agree on this, but I don't agree.  I don't see the skating problems you're claiming.  They gave up on him too early.

And TBH pretty much every one of them got eaten alive by Florida's forecheck.  Honestly, the Leafs need to study up on playoff interference and how to make it work.  Everybody else uses it to slow down the kamikazes.

That?s because, other than Rielly, none of them are particularly swift skaters or good at skating with the puck. Sandin?s skating speed was identified as an issue well before he was drafted. This isn?t news or my opinion. This is what the overwhelming majority of the hockey world has observed. He?s not painfully slow, but he?s only average at best, regardless of whether or not you agree with that.