The Lupul Situation

[Frank E]

I swear. For years and years everyone on this board is joking about "Robidas Island" and then the second a player acknowledges there's some truth there it's "HOW DARE THAT TRAITOR SUGGEST EVERYTHING ISN'T ON THE UP AND UP!?!!?!?!"

Hey, if he's got supporting evidence other than a deleted tweet by himself, I'm all ears/eyes.

All I see is a guy shooting his mouth off without really providing anything, or doing anything, that would suggest he's actually able to play.

If he actually pursues this through the proper process, I'll be very interested.

 

[Kin]

He is the topic of this particular thread.

Yes, but not that digression.

 

[Bill_Berg]

Hey, if he's got supporting evidence other than a deleted tweet by himself, I'm all ears/eyes.

All I see is a guy shooting his mouth off without really providing anything, or doing anything, that would suggest he's actually able to play.

If he actually pursues this through the proper process, I'll be very interested.

Whatever the story is, it would be interesting, but I doubt we'll get to hear it anytime soon.

Is he being paid to shut up, or is there a medical debate? A little of both? I'll buy the tell-all book in 2025.

 

[Kin]

Neither do I, nor was the joke about sending someone to Robidas Island not frequently met with the rebuttal that, unless the team can come up with legitimate reasoning to do so, the risk outweighs the reward/no doctor would risk his qualification and reputation to lie for the team/etc.

Yeah, that's just not true. And I know that because if it were I probably would have posted that after all we know about concussions and painkiller prescription in the NHL and other sports the idea that Team Doctors are paragons of independent virtue is insane roughly 1000 times.

 

[Coco-puffs]

Here's my hot take on this situation and I may be very well off base, but I'm still going to give it:

1)  Lupul has his umpteenth surgery for back/hernia etc stuff 1.5 years ago and gets shut down for remainder of season to rehab.
2)  Leafs can't buy him out since Lupul would just say "I'm injured, ineligible for buyout".  (I'm sure they already explored the trade market for him and figured they would have to add too much of a sweetener for someone to take their cap dump)
2)  Lupul comes back following year, expecting to play.  They do medical exam and, even if he's "healthy" enough to play hockey- he's hindered by all his injury history that he's no longer at an NHL level.  Doctor can probably provide enough evidence that he's broken enough to not be medically cleared.  Beyond that, they probably don't really want him on the team anyways so they aren't going to lean towards clearing him to see how he does.
3)  Leafs tell him if you try and dispute the injury diagnosis and win, we are going to send you to the AHL anyways
4)  Lupul essentially has two choices:
- Fight the Leafs on the medical clearance, only to get demoted.  If he doesn't show up in the AHL, they can suspend him without pay.
- Go away and collect my paycheque without having the shame of getting demoted

So, the following year (now), the situation remains the same.  The Leafs can demoted him right now and after putting Horton on LTIR, will be cap compliant.  They don't need to put him on LTIR. 

 

[Zee]

If nothing else, Lupul is good for business on TMLFans.ca.  Traffic is up with hot takes and disgruntled fans (myself included)  ;D

 

[cabber24]

A real test of the NHL's rules will be when Zetterberg attempts to go to Detroit's Robidas Island after already acknowledging his contract was designed to circumvent the cap. Some doctor will be able to justify putting him LTIR see Hossa. Cap advantage recapture is unlikely. That's why I am not overly concerned about the Marleau term. 3rd year we could bury him on the LTIR if need be.

 

[Bender]

I swear. For years and years everyone on this board is joking about "Robidas Island" and then the second a player acknowledges there's some truth there it's "HOW DARE THAT TRAITOR SUGGEST EVERYTHING ISN'T ON THE UP AND UP!?!!?!?!"

I think people are more worried that this could lead to some sort of violation which could have easily been avoided if it wasn't aired publicly.

Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk

 

[Kin]

I swear. For years and years everyone on this board is joking about "Robidas Island" and then the second a player acknowledges there's some truth there it's "HOW DARE THAT TRAITOR SUGGEST EVERYTHING ISN'T ON THE UP AND UP!?!!?!?!"

I think people are more worried that this could lead to some sort of violation which could have easily been avoided if it wasn't aired publicly.

Like I've been saying throughout I really don't think that Lupul saying something we all more or less knew already is going to lead to anything.

 

[Zee]

I swear. For years and years everyone on this board is joking about "Robidas Island" and then the second a player acknowledges there's some truth there it's "HOW DARE THAT TRAITOR SUGGEST EVERYTHING ISN'T ON THE UP AND UP!?!!?!?!"

I think people are more worried that this could lead to some sort of violation which could have easily been avoided if it wasn't aired publicly.

Like I've been saying throughout I really don't think that Lupul saying something we all more or less knew already is going to lead to anything.

This is correct, the NHL knows about it, as do we all.  As long as Lupul doesn't take any official steps to try and challenge it, they don't seem to care.

 

[ZBBM]

Maybe Lupul's angry/dismayed reaction has nothing to do with economic calculations or even a realistic assessment of his ability to play again in the NHL, but is just an all-too-human emotional response to loss, coming from his having identified himself as a "hockey player" most all his life and he sees that coming to and end.  You could probably locate this somewhere on that stages-of-grief scale.  It's not a matter of rationality.

 

[Bender]

Maybe Lupul's angry/dismayed reaction has nothing to do with economic calculations or even a realistic assessment of his ability to play again in the NHL, but is just an all-too-human emotional response to loss, coming from his having identified himself as a "hockey player" most all his life and he sees that coming to and end.  You could probably locate this somewhere on that stages-of-grief scale.  It's not a matter of rationality.

At the same time I don't see why a guy earning $5.25m/yr to sit on his butt and/or go HAM at music festivals should really get any of my sympathy. I could care less if people jump on the guy for airing a grievance that many of us think shouldn't have been done publicly. He's laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[Kin]

I could care less if people jump on the guy for airing a grievance that many of us think shouldn't have been done publicly.

He didn't air a grievance. 

 

[Zee]

Maybe Lupul's angry/dismayed reaction has nothing to do with economic calculations or even a realistic assessment of his ability to play again in the NHL, but is just an all-too-human emotional response to loss, coming from his having identified himself as a "hockey player" most all his life and he sees that coming to and end.  You could probably locate this somewhere on that stages-of-grief scale.  It's not a matter of rationality.

At the same time I don't see why a guy earning $5.25m/yr to sit on his butt and/or go HAM at music festivals should really get any of my sympathy. I could care less if people jump on the guy for airing a grievance that many of us think shouldn't have been done publicly. He's laughing all the way to the bank.

Cap hit is 5.25 but his actual salary this season is 3.75.  I get your point though.

5.25 last season...so he's collected (or will collect) $9 million the last 2 years to stay away.

 

[bustaheims]

Neither do I, nor was the joke about sending someone to Robidas Island not frequently met with the rebuttal that, unless the team can come up with legitimate reasoning to do so, the risk outweighs the reward/no doctor would risk his qualification and reputation to lie for the team/etc.

Yeah, that's just not true. And I know that because if it were I probably would have posted that after all we know about concussions and painkiller prescription in the NHL and other sports the idea that Team Doctors are paragons of independent virtue is insane roughly 1000 times.

I mean, I have posted that argument on a significant number of occasions when the idea of putting a healthy player on LTIR has come up, and you've never posted that particular rebuttal, so . . .

Also, "team doctors" are generally independent doctors who take on the team as a client. Very few are employed full-time by teams. For instance, the Leafs' current Medical Director and Head Team Physician is a family doctor with an active practice in North York. I have my doubts he'd sacrifice his livelihood to outright lie for the benefit of a single client. While there may be some who endorse questionable practices regarding treatment of certain conditions - like concussions, pain killers, etc. - they're mostly medically justifiable positions based on the medical community's understanding of/position on the issue at the time, even if they're not ethically so. Providing a false diagnosis, however, is not justifiable medically or ethically.

 

[Kin]

Providing a false diagnosis, however, is not justifiable medically or ethically.

To quote Rick Sanchez, a lot of people don't realize that Science is more Art than Science. The idea that these diagnoses are black and white, pass and fail, yes and no, outright lies and unassailable truths does not add up with what I understand of sports medicine(which, to be fair, isn't a ton). A lot of it is about pain levels. How are they defined? How honest is a player in reporting them? These are not things that would cause a doctor to lose his career if another doctor disagreed with them.

Again, my knowledge of medicine is not expert-level but it's enough to know doctors disagree about things all the time. If one Doctor says the pain in a knee is debilitating and another doesn't, I'm pretty sure the  people of North York are still going to generally trust the first doctor. The Ministry of Health isn't stripping licenses.


Being a team doctor(and especially the Leafs doctor here in Toronto) has, I think you'd agree, some manner of prestige and ancillary benefits beyond just straight salary. Enough for someone to say a bone isn't broken when it is? Probably not. Enough to provide generally team-friendly opinions on grey issues like when to come back from concussions or how to medicate pain or what affect pain has? Again, we have pretty solid proof that the answer there at least can be yes.

 

[AvroArrow]

Speaking of "injured" players and the Leafs, this didn't really get picked up on much but Jared Cowen spoke out about what happened to him the other day. Safe to say he wasn't very pleased about how that situation turned out

Cowan is just a whiner... He came over injured, complained that he was good to go and wanted to play, Leafs didn't want him and didn't play him, the off-season comes and they buy him out, suddenly he says, "you can't - I'm injured".  Too bad, man-baby, you can't choose to be healthy when you want and injured when you want.  That's why you lost your grievance.

 

[Bill_Berg]

Providing a false diagnosis, however, is not justifiable medically or ethically.

To quote Rick Sanchez, a lot of people don't realize that Science is more Art than Science. The idea that these diagnoses are black and white, pass and fail, yes and no, outright lies and unassailable truths does not add up with what I understand of sports medicine(which, to be fair, isn't a ton). A lot of it is about pain levels. How are they defined? How honest is a player in reporting them? These are not things that would cause a doctor to lose his career if another doctor disagreed with them.

Again, my knowledge of medicine is not expert-level but it's enough to know doctors disagree about things all the time. If one Doctor says the pain in a knee is debilitating and another doesn't, I'm pretty sure the  people of North York are still going to generally trust the first doctor. The Ministry of Health isn't stripping licenses.


Being a team doctor(and especially the Leafs doctor here in Toronto) has, I think you'd agree, some manner of prestige and ancillary benefits beyond just straight salary. Enough for someone to say a bone isn't broken when it is? Probably not. Enough to provide generally team-friendly opinions on grey issues like when to come back from concussions or how to medicate pain or what affect pain has? Again, we have pretty solid proof that the answer there at least can be yes.

I'm sure that's it. Lupul feels fine to play, but due to prior conditions, one hit in the wrong place and the damage would be extensive, therefore the suggestion is to not play. That's hard to refute.

 

[AvroArrow]

Regarding the Lupul situation, I suspect the Leafs have used a technicality to fail Lupul and keep him on IR - quite possibly a technicality that is frequently overlooked.  As a result, Lupul feels "cheated", but there's not a damn thing he can do about it.

 

[Andy007]

Regarding the Lupul situation, I suspect the Leafs have used a technicality to fail Lupul and keep him on IR - quite possibly a technicality that is frequently overlooked.  As a result, Lupul feels "cheated", but there's not a damn thing he can do about it.

And that would be frustrating for anyone, I imagine, who has been playing professionally for as long as he has and hasn't reached the better part of 30 yet. I don't begrudge him for speaking out and the fact that he still earns a nice paycheck doesn't make the situation any less wrong, imo.