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The Marlies In Context - A Playoff Primer

Deebo said:
Is Dermott AHL eligible next year?

He turns 20 this December.
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Yes. Anyone who turns 20 before December 31st of the season would be eligible. So him (and Timashov) would be eligible.
 
You guys remember Michael Liambas? He's still playing regular minutes in the AHL. The Blackhawks actually gave him a NHL contract for 15-16. Over the past 4 seasons he has 185 games played, 19 points, and 687 penalty minutes. He's not a hockey player. He absolutely should not be playing in the 2nd highest professional league in North America. It's an embarrassment.

In the NHL fighting has drastically been reduced and the role of the goon/enforcer has basically been abolished. But I'm not really sure that was a result of anything the league actually did. It just sort of happened naturally. Teams realized on their own players like that didn't help their teams win hockey games. That hasn't happened at the AHL level. Maybe it's because to them winning isn't exactly their top goal. Even the Marlies, probably one of the most progressive teams in the league, felt the need to sign one of these goons in Justin Johnson (although they didn't dress him much prior to his injury).

But if AHL teams won't address this naturally themselves then the league itself has to step in and institute some of the rules that the OHL did to crack down on fighting.
 
I like what busta suggested earlier: call those Attempt to Injure game misconducts even if the attempt doesn't land (e.g. Graham Black's flying elbow that Leipsic dodged). 5 min PP, 10 min in the dressing room, mark them on repeat offenders lists, team/coach fines and suspensions that scale up with each offense. Those who throw these type of hits, and those who validate/encourage this behaviour should be hit where it hurts: on the scoresheet, and in the wallet.
 
herman said:
I like what busta suggested earlier: call those Attempt to Injure game misconducts even if the attempt doesn't land (e.g. Graham Black's flying elbow that Leipsic dodged). 5 min PP, 10 min in the dressing room, mark them on repeat offenders lists, team/coach fines and suspensions that scale up with each offense. Those who throw these type of hits, and those who validate/encourage this behaviour should be hit where it hurts: on the scoresheet, and in the wallet.
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Which was exactly my thinking. Make these dangerous players seriously detrimental to the team, and make the plays seriously detrimental to the players. Don't punish based on result, but the action/intent itself. There's a too much legal hot water to ban the players themselves, but the only thing that's preventing the league from creating an environment where they're no longer considered useful is their own reluctance to address the entirety of the issue. These guys shouldn't be out there thinking "well, as long as I don't scramble someone's brains, I won't be punished." They have to legitimately feel like they're doing themselves harm by even attempting these reckless plays.
 
bustaheims said:
herman said:
I like what busta suggested earlier: call those Attempt to Injure game misconducts even if the attempt doesn't land (e.g. Graham Black's flying elbow that Leipsic dodged). 5 min PP, 10 min in the dressing room, mark them on repeat offenders lists, team/coach fines and suspensions that scale up with each offense. Those who throw these type of hits, and those who validate/encourage this behaviour should be hit where it hurts: on the scoresheet, and in the wallet.
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Which was exactly my thinking. Make these dangerous players seriously detrimental to the team, and make the plays seriously detrimental to the players. Don't punish based on result, but the action/intent itself. There's a too much legal hot water to ban the players themselves, but the only thing that's preventing the league from creating an environment where they're no longer considered useful is their own reluctance to address the entirety of the issue. These guys shouldn't be out there thinking "well, as long as I don't scramble someone's brains, I won't be punished." They have to legitimately feel like they're doing themselves harm by even attempting these reckless plays.
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The trick will be calling it consistently, since intent is still largely subjective, and AHL refs already have difficulty calling hooks, boarding, hitting from behind, etc.

It's pretty cut and dry if you can extrapolate the result of a hit if it makes contact and infer intent from that; but that's me watching a replay repeatedly, slightly slowed down. Game speed calls will still be tough.
 
Nik the Trik said:
Frank E said:
I don't want to see anyone getting hurt, but this is a tough physical sport.  The league suspended that guy that took a head shot at Johnson for 10 games, and I think that's a pretty tough sentence.

The NHL is a tough league that demands you keep your head on a swivel at all times.  I'm not sure there's any other way to teach these prospects that than to expose them to some tough competition that plays a physical game and is willing to take the penalties that come from that type of game plan.

Eric Lindros was a guy that never took much of a hit in his junior years because he was bigger than everyone else on the ice, and so he got into some bad habits.  He paid a pretty big price for that at the NHL level.
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WE're not talking about hockey plays, we're talking about the sort of goonery that the NHL has actually done a good job of stamping out and as a result, NHL players don't really have to play with their heads on a swivel looking out for meatheads solely looking to injure other players because more and more those players aren't in the league. That you'd shunt them off to a developmental league is insane. It's like if in AA baseball they decided to mix things up by not lettting players wear helmets or if the NBADL were cooler with flagrant fouls than the NBA.

A 10 game suspension is ultimately meaningless in terms of providing a disincentive to teams to employ these kinds of guys and you're kidding yourself if you think the reason there are still goons in the AHL in a way there isn't really in the NHL is for any kind of instructional purpose. It's a reality of the fact that it's hard to sell tickets for minor league hockey and throwing fists still has some appeal to some people.

Those two things are at cross purposes, the NHL is making less and less room for goons. If the AHL is going to be a developmental league, it needs to follow suit.
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1.  I thought we were talking about high-hits, elbows, stuff that's intended to injure through illegal contact like what happened to Johnson.  That's why I used the Lindros example.  I see those types of things like, to use your example, beaning Bautista without consequence.  I don't like it, but it happens, and I think the best way to deter it is to call stiffer penalties, and to suspend the players more often, and for longer.  I think players will still have to learn to keep their heads held high because I don't think the body contact heavy hitting is going to be made illegal.  A recent example would be Drouin getting smoked in the Islanders series.  I'd prefer that Nylander be more careful next season than Drouin was on that play.

2.  I think the fact that there isn't much need for goons anymore in the NHL will lead to there being less goons in the AHL.  Teams won't draft those guys anymore, and therefore won't be developing them.  I think it'll shake down to the junior level as well because players won't be seeking those jobs anymore because they just won't exist.

3.  I think the fist throwing will be less and less prevalent in hockey moving forward, but I'm not as sure that it's the fighting that you have a problem with.  I think we're on the same page that we're more concerned about the flagrant illegal checks.
 
bustaheims said:
Which was exactly my thinking. Make these dangerous players seriously detrimental to the team,
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I think you've nailed it right there, because true detriment to the team doesn't really exist. You might have to kill off a minor or major penalty, but suspensions rarely have meaningful impact on the offending team, because the type of player who plays on the edge/is a repeat offender isn't usually in the top 6/top 3. The team can even fill his roster spot for the length of the suspension.

I think that organizations should have to bear the risk of having players who play on the edge actually hurting the franchise - and I've often thought that penalizing a team based upon number of man-games missed on suspendable plays with loss of draft picks, for example, would address this far more meaningfully.
 
According to the Star, TSN2 will be broadcasting the Marlies for the rest of the playoffs.

I believe TSN2 is a premium channel so most might not have it, but I think it'll also stream on TSN's site assuming you can login with your TV service provider's credentials. Worst case, it'll at least provide a better quality less-than-legal-stream through reddit.
 
Frank E said:
1.  I thought we were talking about high-hits, elbows, stuff that's intended to injure through illegal contact like what happened to Johnson.  That's why I used the Lindros example.  I see those types of things like, to use your example, beaning Bautista without consequence.  I don't like it, but it happens, and I think the best way to deter it is to call stiffer penalties, and to suspend the players more often, and for longer.  I think players will still have to learn to keep their heads held high because I don't think the body contact heavy hitting is going to be made illegal.  A recent example would be Drouin getting smoked in the Islanders series.  I'd prefer that Nylander be more careful next season than Drouin was on that play.
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You're presenting a false choice. There is nothing that says players can't be taught to keep their heads up and strongly go at a team for employing goons. We're not talking about players getting hurt on legal hits which is something that will probably always be a part of the game and which the best way to protect against is teaching players the exact same thing that avoiding illegal hits would entail, it's just about going after teams for employing players who are the equivalent of a AA baseball team employing pitchers who only throw at players.

Frank E said:
2.  I think the fact that there isn't much need for goons anymore in the NHL will lead to there being less goons in the AHL.  Teams won't draft those guys anymore, and therefore won't be developing them.  I think it'll shake down to the junior level as well because players won't be seeking those jobs anymore because they just won't exist.

3.  I think the fist throwing will be less and less prevalent in hockey moving forward, but I'm not as sure that it's the fighting that you have a problem with.  I think we're on the same page that we're more concerned about the flagrant illegal checks.
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I only care about the fighting to the extent that I think it provides a counter-balance to the market forces you're talking about in #2. Not every NHL team has the luxury of running their AHL as a purely developmental exercise without regard to whether or not they turn a profit or even really how much they lose. Fighting draws crowds, AHL teams need to sell tickets. Not every team has to worry about the 50 contract limit for all of their prospects. Unless you provide a stronger disincentive for teams to hire goons, they probably still will.

 
CarltonTheBear said:
According to the Star, TSN2 will be broadcasting the Marlies for the rest of the playoffs.

I believe TSN2 is a premium channel so most might not have it, but I think it'll also stream on TSN's site assuming you can login with your TV service provider's credentials. Worst case, it'll at least provide a better quality less-than-legal-stream through reddit.
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An interesting side-note to this, especially for those wondering why the Leafs can't just put these games wherever they want:

Kevin McGran ‏@kevin_mcgran
FYI: Sportsnet (Rogers) has the rights to AHL and agreed to hand them to TSN (Bell) for playoffs. Remember, Bell, Rogers co-own #Marlies
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CarltonTheBear said:
CarltonTheBear said:
According to the Star, TSN2 will be broadcasting the Marlies for the rest of the playoffs.

I believe TSN2 is a premium channel so most might not have it, but I think it'll also stream on TSN's site assuming you can login with your TV service provider's credentials. Worst case, it'll at least provide a better quality less-than-legal-stream through reddit.
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An interesting side-note to this, especially for those wondering why the Leafs can't just put these games wherever they want:

Kevin McGran ‏@kevin_mcgran
FYI: Sportsnet (Rogers) has the rights to AHL and agreed to hand them to TSN (Bell) for playoffs. Remember, Bell, Rogers co-own #Marlies
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I'm not sure I understand the logic of the CHL (OHL/WHL/QMJHL) and AHL having the same rights with Sportsnet who have television requirements for the NHL and MLB, plus get to share rights for the Raptors.  Yet, they still manage to have inferior broadcasting abilities.
 
L K said:
I'm not sure I understand the logic of the CHL (OHL/WHL/QMJHL) and AHL having the same rights with Sportsnet who have television requirements for the NHL and MLB, plus get to share rights for the Raptors.  Yet, they still manage to have inferior broadcasting abilities.
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I would imagine the logic begins and ends with who's willing to pay them the most money for the rights.
 
Bit of an update on Andreas Johnson: http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-marlies/2016/5/20/11719882/andreas-johnson-isolated-in-toronto-hotel-room-after-the-head-hit

Long story short: he's still experiencing symptoms and is stuck in a Toronto hotel room until that changes.
 
But on the plus side, he's really learned a valuable lesson about playing hockey that will serve him well at the next level.
 
CarltonTheBear said:
Bit of an update on Andreas Johnson: http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-marlies/2016/5/20/11719882/andreas-johnson-isolated-in-toronto-hotel-room-after-the-head-hit

Long story short: he's still experiencing symptoms and is stuck in a Toronto hotel room until that changes.
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Lets just get a sledge hammer and belt all our top prospects on the head and get that first bad concussion out of the way.  Time to stop goon hockey in the AHL and levy top fines against coaches and team owners that play these kind of thugs
 
Yeah but a useless plug will serve another few regular season games of suspension (if he even gets another contract) so it all balances out.

It's only the 1st 10 minutes but this looks like a completely different series.  The Marlies have dominated possession and Hershey doesn't look to be nearly as clutch-and-grab/elbows and hits from behind prone.
 
L K said:
It's only the 1st 10 minutes but this looks like a completely different series.  The Marlies have dominated possession and Hershey doesn't look to be nearly as clutch-and-grab/elbows and hits from behind prone.
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The next two rounds really should be a cakewalk compared to the Albany series.

edit: with Bibeau being the obvious x-factor
 
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