The Special Teams

[Tigger]

Well Hunter did get the axe after all. I didn't post that as some sort of defence of what the Leafs are doing or anything, just to show that they weren't completely ignorant of the situation and a long time coaches opinion of his own players effort. One can dismiss it as a bad attitude but Hunter generally tells it like it is.

Also, what coach doesn't believe his way is best? Burns, who I consider one of the best coaches ever was fired by the Habs, the Leafs and the Bruins... it happens to the best of them.

 

[Stebro]

Well Hunter did get the axe after all. I didn't post that as some sort of defence of what the Leafs are doing or anything, just to show that they weren't completely ignorant of the situation and a long time coaches opinion of his own players effort. One can dismiss it as a bad attitude but Hunter generally tells it like it is.

Also, what coach doesn't believe his way is best? Burns, who I consider one of the best coaches ever was fired by the Habs, the Leafs and the Bruins... it happens to the best of them.

Well if the pk is last in the league it should send them a message that it isn't working. And if the players don't get it, or don't have what it takes to do it, they should change the system. They can't keep it just to be stubborn, that will only hurt the leafs. Try something that most players recognize and have tried before, and upgrade the status of the pk, and see what happens.

 

[Tigger]

Well Hunter did get the axe after all. I didn't post that as some sort of defence of what the Leafs are doing or anything, just to show that they weren't completely ignorant of the situation and a long time coaches opinion of his own players effort. One can dismiss it as a bad attitude but Hunter generally tells it like it is.

Also, what coach doesn't believe his way is best? Burns, who I consider one of the best coaches ever was fired by the Habs, the Leafs and the Bruins... it happens to the best of them.

Well if the pk is last in the league it should send them a message that it isn't working. And if the players don't get it, or don't have what it takes to do it, they should change the system. They can't keep it just to be stubborn, that will only hurt the leafs. Try something that most players recognize and have tried before, and upgrade the status of the pk, and see what happens.

I don't see how the failure of the players is equal to a coach being stubborn.

If it was as easy as 'upgrading' or 'recognizing' I think they would have tried it by now.

I wonder what Cronin has to say about it...

 

[Bender]

Well Hunter did get the axe after all. I didn't post that as some sort of defence of what the Leafs are doing or anything, just to show that they weren't completely ignorant of the situation and a long time coaches opinion of his own players effort. One can dismiss it as a bad attitude but Hunter generally tells it like it is.

Also, what coach doesn't believe his way is best? Burns, who I consider one of the best coaches ever was fired by the Habs, the Leafs and the Bruins... it happens to the best of them.

Well if the pk is last in the league it should send them a message that it isn't working. And if the players don't get it, or don't have what it takes to do it, they should change the system. They can't keep it just to be stubborn, that will only hurt the leafs. Try something that most players recognize and have tried before, and upgrade the status of the pk, and see what happens.

I don't see how the failure of the players is equal to a coach being stubborn.

If it was as easy as 'upgrading' or 'recognizing' I think they would have tried it by now.

I wonder what Cronin has to say about it...

It sure is easy to just call the coach a moron eh? Maybe we should hire Craig Hartsburg or Cory Clouston and see how they do.

 

[Stebro]

Well Hunter did get the axe after all. I didn't post that as some sort of defence of what the Leafs are doing or anything, just to show that they weren't completely ignorant of the situation and a long time coaches opinion of his own players effort. One can dismiss it as a bad attitude but Hunter generally tells it like it is.

Also, what coach doesn't believe his way is best? Burns, who I consider one of the best coaches ever was fired by the Habs, the Leafs and the Bruins... it happens to the best of them.

Well if the pk is last in the league it should send them a message that it isn't working. And if the players don't get it, or don't have what it takes to do it, they should change the system. They can't keep it just to be stubborn, that will only hurt the leafs. Try something that most players recognize and have tried before, and upgrade the status of the pk, and see what happens.

I don't see how the failure of the players is equal to a coach being stubborn.

If it was as easy as 'upgrading' or 'recognizing' I think they would have tried it by now.

I wonder what Cronin has to say about it...

Wilson doesn't strike me as the guy who is willing to change if things don't work. Infact I do actually think that it's the same way with Burke. Although I do think that Burke has done a good job. But both of them are so stubborn, they seem to think that their way is the only way that works because it worked for them in the past. But the NHL has changed a lot.

What I would do is to try something similar, a type of pk that most players are used to from the past. Talk to them about the skating, and pressure on the puck handler. And talk about how the role of the pk'ers are very important, and really try to develop specialists. I don't believe in letting other teams get the control in their pp, and that seems to be a part of the leafs strategy at times. I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Even crappy teams can develop good PK.

 

[Bender]

Well Hunter did get the axe after all. I didn't post that as some sort of defence of what the Leafs are doing or anything, just to show that they weren't completely ignorant of the situation and a long time coaches opinion of his own players effort. One can dismiss it as a bad attitude but Hunter generally tells it like it is.

Also, what coach doesn't believe his way is best? Burns, who I consider one of the best coaches ever was fired by the Habs, the Leafs and the Bruins... it happens to the best of them.

Well if the pk is last in the league it should send them a message that it isn't working. And if the players don't get it, or don't have what it takes to do it, they should change the system. They can't keep it just to be stubborn, that will only hurt the leafs. Try something that most players recognize and have tried before, and upgrade the status of the pk, and see what happens.

I don't see how the failure of the players is equal to a coach being stubborn.

If it was as easy as 'upgrading' or 'recognizing' I think they would have tried it by now.

I wonder what Cronin has to say about it...

Wilson doesn't strike me as the guy who is willing to change if things don't work. Infact I do actually think that it's the same way with Burke. Although I do think that Burke has done a good job. But both of them are so stubborn, they seem to think that their way is the only way that works because it worked for them in the past. But the NHL has changed a lot.

What I would do is to try something similar, a type of pk that most players are used to from the past. Talk to them about the skating, and pressure on the puck handler. And talk about how the role of the pk'ers are very important, and really try to develop specialists. I don't believe in letting other teams get the control in their pp, and that seems to be a part of the leafs strategy at times. I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Even crappy teams can develop good PK.

And even good teams can have a crappy PK (San Jose, Detroit, Chicago, Minnesota). Do you think Babcock forgot how to coach the PK?

 

[Tigger]

It sure is easy to just call the coach a moron eh? Maybe we should hire Craig Hartsburg or Cory Clouston and see how they do.

I betcha Quinn and Maurice could tell some stories too...

 

[Stebro]

Well Hunter did get the axe after all. I didn't post that as some sort of defence of what the Leafs are doing or anything, just to show that they weren't completely ignorant of the situation and a long time coaches opinion of his own players effort. One can dismiss it as a bad attitude but Hunter generally tells it like it is.

Also, what coach doesn't believe his way is best? Burns, who I consider one of the best coaches ever was fired by the Habs, the Leafs and the Bruins... it happens to the best of them.

Well if the pk is last in the league it should send them a message that it isn't working. And if the players don't get it, or don't have what it takes to do it, they should change the system. They can't keep it just to be stubborn, that will only hurt the leafs. Try something that most players recognize and have tried before, and upgrade the status of the pk, and see what happens.

I don't see how the failure of the players is equal to a coach being stubborn.

If it was as easy as 'upgrading' or 'recognizing' I think they would have tried it by now.

I wonder what Cronin has to say about it...

Wilson doesn't strike me as the guy who is willing to change if things don't work. Infact I do actually think that it's the same way with Burke. Although I do think that Burke has done a good job. But both of them are so stubborn, they seem to think that their way is the only way that works because it worked for them in the past. But the NHL has changed a lot.

What I would do is to try something similar, a type of pk that most players are used to from the past. Talk to them about the skating, and pressure on the puck handler. And talk about how the role of the pk'ers are very important, and really try to develop specialists. I don't believe in letting other teams get the control in their pp, and that seems to be a part of the leafs strategy at times. I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Even crappy teams can develop good PK.

And even good teams can have a crappy PK (San Jose, Detroit, Chicago, Minnesota). Do you think Babcock forgot how to coach the PK?

Yes, but they aren't the leafs They may just have focused too much on other parts of the game. You need to develop all aspects of the game all the time, some forget about that because they're doing well.

 

[Stebro]

Well Hunter did get the axe after all. I didn't post that as some sort of defence of what the Leafs are doing or anything, just to show that they weren't completely ignorant of the situation and a long time coaches opinion of his own players effort. One can dismiss it as a bad attitude but Hunter generally tells it like it is.

Also, what coach doesn't believe his way is best? Burns, who I consider one of the best coaches ever was fired by the Habs, the Leafs and the Bruins... it happens to the best of them.

Well if the pk is last in the league it should send them a message that it isn't working. And if the players don't get it, or don't have what it takes to do it, they should change the system. They can't keep it just to be stubborn, that will only hurt the leafs. Try something that most players recognize and have tried before, and upgrade the status of the pk, and see what happens.

I don't see how the failure of the players is equal to a coach being stubborn.

If it was as easy as 'upgrading' or 'recognizing' I think they would have tried it by now.

I wonder what Cronin has to say about it...

It sure is easy to just call the coach a moron eh? Maybe we should hire Craig Hartsburg or Cory Clouston and see how they do.

Well if a part of the game i bad on a regular basis for a very long time, despite different goalies and players, it certainly makes you wonder about the coaching. And the constant factor in the last couple of years? Ron Wilson.

 

[Tigger]

Well Hunter did get the axe after all. I didn't post that as some sort of defence of what the Leafs are doing or anything, just to show that they weren't completely ignorant of the situation and a long time coaches opinion of his own players effort. One can dismiss it as a bad attitude but Hunter generally tells it like it is.

Also, what coach doesn't believe his way is best? Burns, who I consider one of the best coaches ever was fired by the Habs, the Leafs and the Bruins... it happens to the best of them.

Well if the pk is last in the league it should send them a message that it isn't working. And if the players don't get it, or don't have what it takes to do it, they should change the system. They can't keep it just to be stubborn, that will only hurt the leafs. Try something that most players recognize and have tried before, and upgrade the status of the pk, and see what happens.

I don't see how the failure of the players is equal to a coach being stubborn.

If it was as easy as 'upgrading' or 'recognizing' I think they would have tried it by now.

I wonder what Cronin has to say about it...

Wilson doesn't strike me as the guy who is willing to change if things don't work. Infact I do actually think that it's the same way with Burke. Although I do think that Burke has done a good job. But both of them are so stubborn, they seem to think that their way is the only way that works because it worked for them in the past. But the NHL has changed a lot.

What I would do is to try something similar, a type of pk that most players are used to from the past. Talk to them about the skating, and pressure on the puck handler. And talk about how the role of the pk'ers are very important, and really try to develop specialists. I don't believe in letting other teams get the control in their pp, and that seems to be a part of the leafs strategy at times. I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Even crappy teams can develop good PK.

That's fine and all as an opinion but it presumes based on knowledge of intimate details of the day to day and I doubt that very much.

Didn't Burke's team win the Cup two years into the cap system? I think they have a clue.

 

[Bender]

Well Hunter did get the axe after all. I didn't post that as some sort of defence of what the Leafs are doing or anything, just to show that they weren't completely ignorant of the situation and a long time coaches opinion of his own players effort. One can dismiss it as a bad attitude but Hunter generally tells it like it is.

Also, what coach doesn't believe his way is best? Burns, who I consider one of the best coaches ever was fired by the Habs, the Leafs and the Bruins... it happens to the best of them.

Well if the pk is last in the league it should send them a message that it isn't working. And if the players don't get it, or don't have what it takes to do it, they should change the system. They can't keep it just to be stubborn, that will only hurt the leafs. Try something that most players recognize and have tried before, and upgrade the status of the pk, and see what happens.

I don't see how the failure of the players is equal to a coach being stubborn.

If it was as easy as 'upgrading' or 'recognizing' I think they would have tried it by now.

I wonder what Cronin has to say about it...

Wilson doesn't strike me as the guy who is willing to change if things don't work. Infact I do actually think that it's the same way with Burke. Although I do think that Burke has done a good job. But both of them are so stubborn, they seem to think that their way is the only way that works because it worked for them in the past. But the NHL has changed a lot.

What I would do is to try something similar, a type of pk that most players are used to from the past. Talk to them about the skating, and pressure on the puck handler. And talk about how the role of the pk'ers are very important, and really try to develop specialists. I don't believe in letting other teams get the control in their pp, and that seems to be a part of the leafs strategy at times. I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Even crappy teams can develop good PK.

And even good teams can have a crappy PK (San Jose, Detroit, Chicago, Minnesota). Do you think Babcock forgot how to coach the PK?

Yes, but they aren't the leafs They may just have focused too much on other parts of the game. You need to develop all aspects of the game all the time, some forget about that because they're doing well.

Oh come on. You can't use a different logic for a different team and use a warped one for the Leafs because it suits your thoughts on Wilson and the coaching staff. Detroit is 20th on the PP, below the Leafs.

The Leafs have 10th best Goals per Game at 2.83 avg while Detroit has 18th with 2.69.

Don't you find it slightly important that Detroit is getting good goaltending? This is why they're able to beat teams 5-on-5.

 

[Tigger]

Well if a part of the game i bad on a regular basis for a very long time, despite different goalies and players, it certainly makes you wonder about the coaching. And the constant factor in the last couple of years? Ron Wilson.

What does it tell you about Quinn and Maurice?

 

[Bender]

Well if a part of the game i bad on a regular basis for a very long time, despite different goalies and players, it certainly makes you wonder about the coaching. And the constant factor in the last couple of years? Ron Wilson.

What does it tell you about Quinn and Maurice?

It's no surprise Burns was canned when Felix stopped playing well. Quinn was also canned when we had Raycroft. Maurice was canned when he have Toskala. Wilson will be canned when we have Gustavsson.

I don't understand why we can't use occam's razor here and conclude that the most obvious answer is probably the correct one: Our goaltending has killed our teams since the lockout.

 

[Stebro]

Well Hunter did get the axe after all. I didn't post that as some sort of defence of what the Leafs are doing or anything, just to show that they weren't completely ignorant of the situation and a long time coaches opinion of his own players effort. One can dismiss it as a bad attitude but Hunter generally tells it like it is.

Also, what coach doesn't believe his way is best? Burns, who I consider one of the best coaches ever was fired by the Habs, the Leafs and the Bruins... it happens to the best of them.

Well if the pk is last in the league it should send them a message that it isn't working. And if the players don't get it, or don't have what it takes to do it, they should change the system. They can't keep it just to be stubborn, that will only hurt the leafs. Try something that most players recognize and have tried before, and upgrade the status of the pk, and see what happens.

I don't see how the failure of the players is equal to a coach being stubborn.

If it was as easy as 'upgrading' or 'recognizing' I think they would have tried it by now.

I wonder what Cronin has to say about it...

Wilson doesn't strike me as the guy who is willing to change if things don't work. Infact I do actually think that it's the same way with Burke. Although I do think that Burke has done a good job. But both of them are so stubborn, they seem to think that their way is the only way that works because it worked for them in the past. But the NHL has changed a lot.

What I would do is to try something similar, a type of pk that most players are used to from the past. Talk to them about the skating, and pressure on the puck handler. And talk about how the role of the pk'ers are very important, and really try to develop specialists. I don't believe in letting other teams get the control in their pp, and that seems to be a part of the leafs strategy at times. I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Even crappy teams can develop good PK.

That's fine and all as an opinion but it presumes based on knowledge of intimate details of the day to day and I doubt that very much.

Didn't Burke's team win the Cup two years into the cap system? I think they have a clue.

And you do think that it's the only way of winning the cup? And does it work just as well today? that's the big question.

 

[Stebro]

Well Hunter did get the axe after all. I didn't post that as some sort of defence of what the Leafs are doing or anything, just to show that they weren't completely ignorant of the situation and a long time coaches opinion of his own players effort. One can dismiss it as a bad attitude but Hunter generally tells it like it is.

Also, what coach doesn't believe his way is best? Burns, who I consider one of the best coaches ever was fired by the Habs, the Leafs and the Bruins... it happens to the best of them.

Well if the pk is last in the league it should send them a message that it isn't working. And if the players don't get it, or don't have what it takes to do it, they should change the system. They can't keep it just to be stubborn, that will only hurt the leafs. Try something that most players recognize and have tried before, and upgrade the status of the pk, and see what happens.

I don't see how the failure of the players is equal to a coach being stubborn.

If it was as easy as 'upgrading' or 'recognizing' I think they would have tried it by now.

I wonder what Cronin has to say about it...

Wilson doesn't strike me as the guy who is willing to change if things don't work. Infact I do actually think that it's the same way with Burke. Although I do think that Burke has done a good job. But both of them are so stubborn, they seem to think that their way is the only way that works because it worked for them in the past. But the NHL has changed a lot.

What I would do is to try something similar, a type of pk that most players are used to from the past. Talk to them about the skating, and pressure on the puck handler. And talk about how the role of the pk'ers are very important, and really try to develop specialists. I don't believe in letting other teams get the control in their pp, and that seems to be a part of the leafs strategy at times. I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Even crappy teams can develop good PK.

And even good teams can have a crappy PK (San Jose, Detroit, Chicago, Minnesota). Do you think Babcock forgot how to coach the PK?

Yes, but they aren't the leafs They may just have focused too much on other parts of the game. You need to develop all aspects of the game all the time, some forget about that because they're doing well.

Oh come on. You can't use a different logic for a different team and use a warped one for the Leafs because it suits your thoughts on Wilson and the coaching staff. Detroit is 20th on the PP, below the Leafs.

The Leafs have 10th best Goals per Game at 2.83 avg while Detroit has 18th with 2.69.

Don't you find it slightly important that Detroit is getting good goaltending? This is why they're able to beat teams 5-on-5.

Detroit have depth we don't, so does Chicago and San Jose, they don't have to play great in all aspects of the game to win, we do.

 

[Stebro]

Well if a part of the game i bad on a regular basis for a very long time, despite different goalies and players, it certainly makes you wonder about the coaching. And the constant factor in the last couple of years? Ron Wilson.

What does it tell you about Quinn and Maurice?

That perhaps it wasn't a priority.

 

[Bender]

Well Hunter did get the axe after all. I didn't post that as some sort of defence of what the Leafs are doing or anything, just to show that they weren't completely ignorant of the situation and a long time coaches opinion of his own players effort. One can dismiss it as a bad attitude but Hunter generally tells it like it is.

Also, what coach doesn't believe his way is best? Burns, who I consider one of the best coaches ever was fired by the Habs, the Leafs and the Bruins... it happens to the best of them.

Well if the pk is last in the league it should send them a message that it isn't working. And if the players don't get it, or don't have what it takes to do it, they should change the system. They can't keep it just to be stubborn, that will only hurt the leafs. Try something that most players recognize and have tried before, and upgrade the status of the pk, and see what happens.

I don't see how the failure of the players is equal to a coach being stubborn.

If it was as easy as 'upgrading' or 'recognizing' I think they would have tried it by now.

I wonder what Cronin has to say about it...

Wilson doesn't strike me as the guy who is willing to change if things don't work. Infact I do actually think that it's the same way with Burke. Although I do think that Burke has done a good job. But both of them are so stubborn, they seem to think that their way is the only way that works because it worked for them in the past. But the NHL has changed a lot.

What I would do is to try something similar, a type of pk that most players are used to from the past. Talk to them about the skating, and pressure on the puck handler. And talk about how the role of the pk'ers are very important, and really try to develop specialists. I don't believe in letting other teams get the control in their pp, and that seems to be a part of the leafs strategy at times. I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Even crappy teams can develop good PK.

And even good teams can have a crappy PK (San Jose, Detroit, Chicago, Minnesota). Do you think Babcock forgot how to coach the PK?

Yes, but they aren't the leafs They may just have focused too much on other parts of the game. You need to develop all aspects of the game all the time, some forget about that because they're doing well.

Oh come on. You can't use a different logic for a different team and use a warped one for the Leafs because it suits your thoughts on Wilson and the coaching staff. Detroit is 20th on the PP, below the Leafs.

The Leafs have 10th best Goals per Game at 2.83 avg while Detroit has 18th with 2.69.

Don't you find it slightly important that Detroit is getting good goaltending? This is why they're able to beat teams 5-on-5.

Detroit have depth we don't, so does Chicago and San Jose, they don't have to play great in all aspects of the game to win, we do.

Right. But  you're missing the point. It starts with Goaltending.

 

[Stebro]

Well if a part of the game i bad on a regular basis for a very long time, despite different goalies and players, it certainly makes you wonder about the coaching. And the constant factor in the last couple of years? Ron Wilson.

What does it tell you about Quinn and Maurice?

It's no surprise Burns was canned when Felix stopped playing well. Quinn was also canned when we had Raycroft. Maurice was canned when he have Toskala. Wilson will be canned when we have Gustavsson.

I don't understand why we can't use occam's razor here and conclude that the most obvious answer is probably the correct one: Our goaltending has killed our teams since the lockout.

And it's the goaltenders who just stand around like a bunch of rocks when there's a rebound? Or being completely clueless as to where the puck is. The leafs d act confused.

 

[Stebro]

Well Hunter did get the axe after all. I didn't post that as some sort of defence of what the Leafs are doing or anything, just to show that they weren't completely ignorant of the situation and a long time coaches opinion of his own players effort. One can dismiss it as a bad attitude but Hunter generally tells it like it is.

Also, what coach doesn't believe his way is best? Burns, who I consider one of the best coaches ever was fired by the Habs, the Leafs and the Bruins... it happens to the best of them.

Well if the pk is last in the league it should send them a message that it isn't working. And if the players don't get it, or don't have what it takes to do it, they should change the system. They can't keep it just to be stubborn, that will only hurt the leafs. Try something that most players recognize and have tried before, and upgrade the status of the pk, and see what happens.

I don't see how the failure of the players is equal to a coach being stubborn.

If it was as easy as 'upgrading' or 'recognizing' I think they would have tried it by now.

I wonder what Cronin has to say about it...

Wilson doesn't strike me as the guy who is willing to change if things don't work. Infact I do actually think that it's the same way with Burke. Although I do think that Burke has done a good job. But both of them are so stubborn, they seem to think that their way is the only way that works because it worked for them in the past. But the NHL has changed a lot.

What I would do is to try something similar, a type of pk that most players are used to from the past. Talk to them about the skating, and pressure on the puck handler. And talk about how the role of the pk'ers are very important, and really try to develop specialists. I don't believe in letting other teams get the control in their pp, and that seems to be a part of the leafs strategy at times. I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Even crappy teams can develop good PK.

And even good teams can have a crappy PK (San Jose, Detroit, Chicago, Minnesota). Do you think Babcock forgot how to coach the PK?

Yes, but they aren't the leafs They may just have focused too much on other parts of the game. You need to develop all aspects of the game all the time, some forget about that because they're doing well.

Oh come on. You can't use a different logic for a different team and use a warped one for the Leafs because it suits your thoughts on Wilson and the coaching staff. Detroit is 20th on the PP, below the Leafs.

The Leafs have 10th best Goals per Game at 2.83 avg while Detroit has 18th with 2.69.

Don't you find it slightly important that Detroit is getting good goaltending? This is why they're able to beat teams 5-on-5.

Detroit have depth we don't, so does Chicago and San Jose, they don't have to play great in all aspects of the game to win, we do.

Right. But  you're missing the point. It starts with Goaltending.

The goaltending hasn't been the problem in the PK for the leafs. And it does matter that those teams can win games even if their pk or pp stinks, just due to the fact that they have more depth, they don't have to be as worried as we do if things don't work out on the pk.

 

[Tigger]

And you do think that it's the only way of winning the cup? And does it work just as well today? that's the big question.

For sure it's big question but I have to take degrees of improvement as they are/come and I think there's evidence of that. There may be other avenues of success but certainly, to me, team talent as a whole plays a predominant role in most cases. Like you noted about the teams that have a lot of depth and talent, the difference is that the Leafs have to play their game in top form where others have more of a luxury some nights.

I like the Leafs development and changes/adaptations made so far by management. It hasn't been perfect but it's a far cry from what we've witnessed in the recent past under the former regime.

I maintain the Leafs are two years from being a solid club so with that grain of salt I hold my current opinions, fwiw.