The Special Teams

[Bender]

Well Hunter did get the axe after all. I didn't post that as some sort of defence of what the Leafs are doing or anything, just to show that they weren't completely ignorant of the situation and a long time coaches opinion of his own players effort. One can dismiss it as a bad attitude but Hunter generally tells it like it is.

Also, what coach doesn't believe his way is best? Burns, who I consider one of the best coaches ever was fired by the Habs, the Leafs and the Bruins... it happens to the best of them.

Well if the pk is last in the league it should send them a message that it isn't working. And if the players don't get it, or don't have what it takes to do it, they should change the system. They can't keep it just to be stubborn, that will only hurt the leafs. Try something that most players recognize and have tried before, and upgrade the status of the pk, and see what happens.

I don't see how the failure of the players is equal to a coach being stubborn.

If it was as easy as 'upgrading' or 'recognizing' I think they would have tried it by now.

I wonder what Cronin has to say about it...

Wilson doesn't strike me as the guy who is willing to change if things don't work. Infact I do actually think that it's the same way with Burke. Although I do think that Burke has done a good job. But both of them are so stubborn, they seem to think that their way is the only way that works because it worked for them in the past. But the NHL has changed a lot.

What I would do is to try something similar, a type of pk that most players are used to from the past. Talk to them about the skating, and pressure on the puck handler. And talk about how the role of the pk'ers are very important, and really try to develop specialists. I don't believe in letting other teams get the control in their pp, and that seems to be a part of the leafs strategy at times. I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Even crappy teams can develop good PK.

And even good teams can have a crappy PK (San Jose, Detroit, Chicago, Minnesota). Do you think Babcock forgot how to coach the PK?

Yes, but they aren't the leafs They may just have focused too much on other parts of the game. You need to develop all aspects of the game all the time, some forget about that because they're doing well.

Oh come on. You can't use a different logic for a different team and use a warped one for the Leafs because it suits your thoughts on Wilson and the coaching staff. Detroit is 20th on the PP, below the Leafs.

The Leafs have 10th best Goals per Game at 2.83 avg while Detroit has 18th with 2.69.

Don't you find it slightly important that Detroit is getting good goaltending? This is why they're able to beat teams 5-on-5.

Detroit have depth we don't, so does Chicago and San Jose, they don't have to play great in all aspects of the game to win, we do.

Right. But  you're missing the point. It starts with Goaltending.

The goaltending hasn't been the problem in the PK for the leafs. And it does matter that those teams can win games even if their pk or pp stinks, just due to the fact that they have more depth, they don't have to be as worried as we do if things don't work out on the pk.

What kind of crap are you talking about? Look at the scoring depth at both these teams.

http://redwings.nhl.com/club/stats.htm?season=20112012
http://mapleleafs.nhl.com/club/stats.htm

You can't just make up arguments without any background other than just saying another team has "depth." What kind of an argument is that? It's absolutely insane that you disregard all statistics.

Ty Conklin right now is 1-2-1 with a .882 SV%. Even Detroit can't win at a decent pace with shoddy goaltending. It's no surprise they're riding Jimmy Howard like a trusty mule when he's got a .935 SV%.

You need good goaltending as a cornerstone for your PK and for your defense. The D needs to improve, yes, but when your goaltenders are sieves then you have no hope in hell. There's a reason why the teams have good PK percentages when their goaltenders are playing lights out.

The degree to which you ignore all the stats and numbers unless it suits your own specific, narrow minded argument is baffling.

 

[Stebro]

Well Hunter did get the axe after all. I didn't post that as some sort of defence of what the Leafs are doing or anything, just to show that they weren't completely ignorant of the situation and a long time coaches opinion of his own players effort. One can dismiss it as a bad attitude but Hunter generally tells it like it is.

Also, what coach doesn't believe his way is best? Burns, who I consider one of the best coaches ever was fired by the Habs, the Leafs and the Bruins... it happens to the best of them.

Well if the pk is last in the league it should send them a message that it isn't working. And if the players don't get it, or don't have what it takes to do it, they should change the system. They can't keep it just to be stubborn, that will only hurt the leafs. Try something that most players recognize and have tried before, and upgrade the status of the pk, and see what happens.

I don't see how the failure of the players is equal to a coach being stubborn.

If it was as easy as 'upgrading' or 'recognizing' I think they would have tried it by now.

I wonder what Cronin has to say about it...

Wilson doesn't strike me as the guy who is willing to change if things don't work. Infact I do actually think that it's the same way with Burke. Although I do think that Burke has done a good job. But both of them are so stubborn, they seem to think that their way is the only way that works because it worked for them in the past. But the NHL has changed a lot.

What I would do is to try something similar, a type of pk that most players are used to from the past. Talk to them about the skating, and pressure on the puck handler. And talk about how the role of the pk'ers are very important, and really try to develop specialists. I don't believe in letting other teams get the control in their pp, and that seems to be a part of the leafs strategy at times. I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Even crappy teams can develop good PK.

And even good teams can have a crappy PK (San Jose, Detroit, Chicago, Minnesota). Do you think Babcock forgot how to coach the PK?

Yes, but they aren't the leafs They may just have focused too much on other parts of the game. You need to develop all aspects of the game all the time, some forget about that because they're doing well.

Oh come on. You can't use a different logic for a different team and use a warped one for the Leafs because it suits your thoughts on Wilson and the coaching staff. Detroit is 20th on the PP, below the Leafs.

The Leafs have 10th best Goals per Game at 2.83 avg while Detroit has 18th with 2.69.

Don't you find it slightly important that Detroit is getting good goaltending? This is why they're able to beat teams 5-on-5.

Detroit have depth we don't, so does Chicago and San Jose, they don't have to play great in all aspects of the game to win, we do.

Right. But  you're missing the point. It starts with Goaltending.

The goaltending hasn't been the problem in the PK for the leafs. And it does matter that those teams can win games even if their pk or pp stinks, just due to the fact that they have more depth, they don't have to be as worried as we do if things don't work out on the pk.

What kind of crap are you talking about? Look at the scoring depth at both these teams.

http://redwings.nhl.com/club/stats.htm?season=20112012
http://mapleleafs.nhl.com/club/stats.htm

You can't just make up arguments without any background other than just saying another team has "depth." What kind of an argument is that? It's absolutely insane that you disregard all statistics.

Ty Conklin right now is 1-2-1 with a .882 SV%. Even Detroit can't win at a decent pace with shoddy goaltending. It's no surprise they're riding Jimmy Howard like a trusty mule when he's got a .935 SV%.

You need good goaltending as a cornerstone for your PK and for your defense. The D needs to improve, yes, but when your goaltenders are sieves then you have no hope in hell. There's a reason why the teams have good PK percentages when their goaltenders are playing lights out.

The degree to which you ignore all the stats and numbers unless it suits your own specific, narrow minded argument is baffling.

Im still questioning whether the goaltending is our problem in the PK, I say that it isn't. I say that it's the crappy mobility, and lack of pressure on the puck holder. As for the scoring depth, we shall see after the season

 

[Tigger]

Well if a part of the game i bad on a regular basis for a very long time, despite different goalies and players, it certainly makes you wonder about the coaching. And the constant factor in the last couple of years? Ron Wilson.

What does it tell you about Quinn and Maurice?

That perhaps it wasn't a priority.

I'm not sure what you mean here.

 

[Tigger]

Well if a part of the game i bad on a regular basis for a very long time, despite different goalies and players, it certainly makes you wonder about the coaching. And the constant factor in the last couple of years? Ron Wilson.

What does it tell you about Quinn and Maurice?

It's no surprise Burns was canned when Felix stopped playing well. Quinn was also canned when we had Raycroft. Maurice was canned when he have Toskala. Wilson will be canned when we have Gustavsson.

I don't understand why we can't use occam's razor here and conclude that the most obvious answer is probably the correct one: Our goaltending has killed our teams since the lockout.

Yup, it's tough for a coach to be successful without some goaltending.

 

[Bender]

Well Hunter did get the axe after all. I didn't post that as some sort of defence of what the Leafs are doing or anything, just to show that they weren't completely ignorant of the situation and a long time coaches opinion of his own players effort. One can dismiss it as a bad attitude but Hunter generally tells it like it is.

Also, what coach doesn't believe his way is best? Burns, who I consider one of the best coaches ever was fired by the Habs, the Leafs and the Bruins... it happens to the best of them.

Well if the pk is last in the league it should send them a message that it isn't working. And if the players don't get it, or don't have what it takes to do it, they should change the system. They can't keep it just to be stubborn, that will only hurt the leafs. Try something that most players recognize and have tried before, and upgrade the status of the pk, and see what happens.

I don't see how the failure of the players is equal to a coach being stubborn.

If it was as easy as 'upgrading' or 'recognizing' I think they would have tried it by now.

I wonder what Cronin has to say about it...

Wilson doesn't strike me as the guy who is willing to change if things don't work. Infact I do actually think that it's the same way with Burke. Although I do think that Burke has done a good job. But both of them are so stubborn, they seem to think that their way is the only way that works because it worked for them in the past. But the NHL has changed a lot.

What I would do is to try something similar, a type of pk that most players are used to from the past. Talk to them about the skating, and pressure on the puck handler. And talk about how the role of the pk'ers are very important, and really try to develop specialists. I don't believe in letting other teams get the control in their pp, and that seems to be a part of the leafs strategy at times. I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Even crappy teams can develop good PK.

And even good teams can have a crappy PK (San Jose, Detroit, Chicago, Minnesota). Do you think Babcock forgot how to coach the PK?

Yes, but they aren't the leafs They may just have focused too much on other parts of the game. You need to develop all aspects of the game all the time, some forget about that because they're doing well.

Oh come on. You can't use a different logic for a different team and use a warped one for the Leafs because it suits your thoughts on Wilson and the coaching staff. Detroit is 20th on the PP, below the Leafs.

The Leafs have 10th best Goals per Game at 2.83 avg while Detroit has 18th with 2.69.

Don't you find it slightly important that Detroit is getting good goaltending? This is why they're able to beat teams 5-on-5.

Detroit have depth we don't, so does Chicago and San Jose, they don't have to play great in all aspects of the game to win, we do.

Right. But  you're missing the point. It starts with Goaltending.

The goaltending hasn't been the problem in the PK for the leafs. And it does matter that those teams can win games even if their pk or pp stinks, just due to the fact that they have more depth, they don't have to be as worried as we do if things don't work out on the pk.

What kind of crap are you talking about? Look at the scoring depth at both these teams.

http://redwings.nhl.com/club/stats.htm?season=20112012
http://mapleleafs.nhl.com/club/stats.htm

You can't just make up arguments without any background other than just saying another team has "depth." What kind of an argument is that? It's absolutely insane that you disregard all statistics.

Ty Conklin right now is 1-2-1 with a .882 SV%. Even Detroit can't win at a decent pace with shoddy goaltending. It's no surprise they're riding Jimmy Howard like a trusty mule when he's got a .935 SV%.

You need good goaltending as a cornerstone for your PK and for your defense. The D needs to improve, yes, but when your goaltenders are sieves then you have no hope in hell. There's a reason why the teams have good PK percentages when their goaltenders are playing lights out.

The degree to which you ignore all the stats and numbers unless it suits your own specific, narrow minded argument is baffling.

Im still questioning whether the goaltending is our problem in the PK, I say that it isn't. I say that it's the crappy mobility, and lack of pressure on the puck holder. As for the scoring depth, we shall see after the season

I'm not sure how this accounts for the goaltenders letting in goals that aren't scoring chances - something that has happened more and more frequently lately and something even Wilson referred to in his post game presser.

 

[freer]

I know that it is not saying much, but, the special teams have be half descent the last 2 games

 

[Stebro]

Although the pp isn't all that bad stats wise, you could always learn more. I just read an article of how my favourite team in Sweden have better PP %-wise than all NHL and KHL-teams, and of course all teams in Sweden too. How do they play? ALWAYS 2 guys in front of the net, high puck tempo. Only one pointman. And one guy on each side. It's quite hard to defend against, because most teams don't want to put 2 of their 4 guys in front of the net too. But then they get overpowered in front of their own net. And if they put another guy in front of the net, you will have 4 potential players that will be in the face of the goalie.

And if you only have two guys on the pk that can cover angles and chase the puck, and you're up against 3, there will be a lot of ice to pass the puck on considering that 4 players are locked in front of the net. It's quite fun to watch, because no one have found a good solution yet.

 

[hockeyfan1]

Although the pp isn't all that bad stats wise, you could always learn more. I just read an article of how my favourite team in Sweden have better PP %-wise than all NHL and KHL-teams, and of course all teams in
Sweden too. How do they play? ALWAYS 2 guys in front
of the net, high puck tempo. Only one pointman. And
one guy on each side. It's quite hard to defend against,
because most teams don't want to put 2 of their 4 guys
in front of the net too. But then they get overpowered
in front of their own net. And if they put another guy in
front of the net, you will have 4 potential players that
will be in the face of the goalie.

And if you only have two guys on the pk that can cover angles and chase the puck, and you're up against 3,
there will be a lot of ice to pass the puck on considering
that 4 players are locked in front of the net. It's quite
fun to watch, because no one have found a good
solution yet.

Maybe the Leafs should try that!  ;D

 

[Courtnall]

Well Hunter did get the axe after all. I didn't post that as some sort of defence of what the Leafs are doing or anything, just to show that they weren't completely ignorant of the situation and a long time coaches opinion of his own players effort. One can dismiss it as a bad attitude but Hunter generally tells it like it is.

Also, what coach doesn't believe his way is best? Burns, who I consider one of the best coaches ever was fired by the Habs, the Leafs and the Bruins... it happens to the best of them.

Well if the pk is last in the league it should send them a message that it isn't working. And if the players don't get it, or don't have what it takes to do it, they should change the system. They can't keep it just to be stubborn, that will only hurt the leafs. Try something that most players recognize and have tried before, and upgrade the status of the pk, and see what happens.

I don't see how the failure of the players is equal to a coach being stubborn.

If it was as easy as 'upgrading' or 'recognizing' I think they would have tried it by now.

I wonder what Cronin has to say about it...

Wilson doesn't strike me as the guy who is willing to change if things don't work. Infact I do actually think that it's the same way with Burke. Although I do think that Burke has done a good job. But both of them are so stubborn, they seem to think that their way is the only way that works because it worked for them in the past. But the NHL has changed a lot.

What I would do is to try something similar, a type of pk that most players are used to from the past. Talk to them about the skating, and pressure on the puck handler. And talk about how the role of the pk'ers are very important, and really try to develop specialists. I don't believe in letting other teams get the control in their pp, and that seems to be a part of the leafs strategy at times. I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Even crappy teams can develop good PK.

And even good teams can have a crappy PK (San Jose, Detroit, Chicago, Minnesota). Do you think Babcock forgot how to coach the PK?

And how's Detroit doing this year?

 

[Bender]

Well Hunter did get the axe after all. I didn't post that as some sort of defence of what the Leafs are doing or anything, just to show that they weren't completely ignorant of the situation and a long time coaches opinion of his own players effort. One can dismiss it as a bad attitude but Hunter generally tells it like it is.

Also, what coach doesn't believe his way is best? Burns, who I consider one of the best coaches ever was fired by the Habs, the Leafs and the Bruins... it happens to the best of them.

Well if the pk is last in the league it should send them a message that it isn't working. And if the players don't get it, or don't have what it takes to do it, they should change the system. They can't keep it just to be stubborn, that will only hurt the leafs. Try something that most players recognize and have tried before, and upgrade the status of the pk, and see what happens.

I don't see how the failure of the players is equal to a coach being stubborn.

If it was as easy as 'upgrading' or 'recognizing' I think they would have tried it by now.

I wonder what Cronin has to say about it...

Wilson doesn't strike me as the guy who is willing to change if things don't work. Infact I do actually think that it's the same way with Burke. Although I do think that Burke has done a good job. But both of them are so stubborn, they seem to think that their way is the only way that works because it worked for them in the past. But the NHL has changed a lot.

What I would do is to try something similar, a type of pk that most players are used to from the past. Talk to them about the skating, and pressure on the puck handler. And talk about how the role of the pk'ers are very important, and really try to develop specialists. I don't believe in letting other teams get the control in their pp, and that seems to be a part of the leafs strategy at times. I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Even crappy teams can develop good PK.

And even good teams can have a crappy PK (San Jose, Detroit, Chicago, Minnesota). Do you think Babcock forgot how to coach the PK?

And how's Detroit doing this year?

IMO they're the Yankees of hockey - they start slow and usually manage to pick it up.

But there are other examples. If you can find a niche in your play, being a PP team or PK team or 5-on-5 team you'll still be ok. I think it's foolhardy to think that your team will be dominant in all examples with only a few exceptions to the rule.

San Jose: Their PK is worse than the Leafs, but have a great PP
Chicago: 26th PK, 19th PP

At the same time the "even crappy teams have a good PK" isn't really true. Look at all the best teams right now, they generally have a higher PK.


But still, if we're talking about coaches, Babcock hasn't had a lights out top 5 PK in the last few years, so if we're talking about Wilson and his bad PK, maybe we should look at Babcock too. I doubt any of us would say he's a bad coach despite his bad PK% this year, and yet we hold Wilson to a much harsher standard with far lower quality of players.

And to add: Detroit finished with a 78% PK (25th) in 08/09 and were third in Pts%. They had a killer powerplay, and to be honest, I don't think being a bad PKing team, with a lethal PP is a bad way to win.

All I'm saying is it's not set in stone that good teams need to have a good PK, or if you are amazing at PK, you're automatically a great team or are high in the standings: totally untrue. Sure, having amazing special teams helps, but some of the best teams play their best hockey 5-on-5 too and don't have amazing special teams numbers.

To Sum up: There's more than one way to skin the opposition.

 

[Arn]

Vs Washington

PK 5/5, 1 short handed goal.
PP 3/5

Let's hope this is the start of something...

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

PP is 6th in the league right now.

PK is 28th.

 

[maplesyrup]

PP now 3rd? Crazy. As a side, its hard not to credit our defence for that. I promise, this is no shot at Kaberle but this might be the most mobile and offensively talented Leaf defence I've ever seen. 

 

[bustaheims]

PP now 3rd? Crazy. As a side, its hard not to credit our defence for that. I promise, this is no shot at Kaberle but this is the might be the most mobile and offensively talented Leaf defence I've ever seen.

Yeah. I'm not sure if, on an individual basis, there's anyone quite as mobile with the puck as Kaberle in this group, but, as a unit, they've been fantastic.

 

[maplesyrup]

PP now 3rd? Crazy. As a side, its hard not to credit our defence for that. I promise, this is no shot at Kaberle but this might be the most mobile and offensively talented Leaf defence I've ever seen.

Yeah. I'm not sure if, on an individual basis, there's anyone quite as mobile with the puck as Kaberle in this group, but, as a unit, they've been fantastic.

Pardon the bad grammar there BTW.  :-[ Fixed.

 

[riff raff]

It's also an indication of how volatile these stats are this early in the season (small sample size etc.). As fast as they move up, with a dry spell, they will move right back down.

 

[L K]

PP now 3rd? Crazy. As a side, its hard not to credit our defence for that. I promise, this is no shot at Kaberle but this is the might be the most mobile and offensively talented Leaf defence I've ever seen.

Yeah. I'm not sure if, on an individual basis, there's anyone quite as mobile with the puck as Kaberle in this group, but, as a unit, they've been fantastic.

A better mix of skill too.  Phaneuf was just hammering shots up until the second half of last year and that meant his point-shot was pretty much useless.  Kaberle would set him up, and Phaneuf would just blast it 300MPH wide of the net and it would bounce out of the zone.  He's taken some off his shot and now it is more dangerous.  Liles isn't as good as Kaberle offensively, but has a better shot that makes him more dangerous and mitigates some of what was lost with Kaberle's passing as teams play him more honest and he gets more room to work with the puck.  Franson has a shot and he's able to get to pucks that others can't because he's relatively mobile and has a massive reach.  And then you add Gardiner and Gunnarsson on top of that.  It's depth the Leafs just didn't have in terms of guys with some understanding of how to play the offensive side of the puck.  The Leafs defense the last few years has had too many stone-hands guys like Komisarek, Exelby, Lebda (well he just sucked) who inhibited offensive production rather than helping facilitate it.

 

[maplesyrup]

Liles isn't as good as Kaberle offensively

I haven't noticed much (or any) of a gap between the two to be honest with you... and again, no disrespect to Kaberle intended. 

 

[maplesyrup]

Just to expand on that... Over their careers, Kaberle is slightly below a .58 PPG player while Liles is slightly below a .53 PPG player. So yeah, it's not a difference that can easily be noted. At least not by me.

 

[Tigger]

Having Connolly able to play the point has been beneficial. Franson seems to be coming along as well.