The Unofficial Fire Ron Wilson/Ron Wilson is the Greatest Thread

[bustaheims]

Here's a name that very few (maybe none) have thought about on an interim basis... He's a guy already in the organization with a winning coaching record.... Rick Dudley; 

BUF 1989?90 80G 45W 27L 8T
BUF 1990?91 80G 31W 30L 19T
BUF 1991?92 28G 9W 15L 4T
FLA 2003?04 40G 13W 15L 9T
Total 228G  98W 87L 40T

He's currently Director, Player Personnel but like I said it would just be in the interim and he could keep that handle until the right guy come along. He'd certainly see a fair number of live games that way.  :-\

... just a thought... He probably wouldn't take it anyway.

Half a season behind the bench in the past 20 years? Probably not the best choice.

 

[maplesyrup]

Here's a name that very few (maybe none) have thought about on an interim basis... He's a guy already in the organization with a winning coaching record.... Rick Dudley; 

BUF 1989?90 80G 45W 27L 8T
BUF 1990?91 80G 31W 30L 19T
BUF 1991?92 28G 9W 15L 4T
FLA 2003?04 40G 13W 15L 9T
Total 228G  98W 87L 40T

He's currently Director, Player Personnel but like I said it would just be in the interim and he could keep that handle until the right guy come along. He'd certainly see a fair number of live games that way.  :-\

... just a thought... He probably wouldn't take it anyway.

Half a season behind the bench in the past 20 years? Probably not the best choice.

Maybe not... I'm not sure it's any worse of choice than Pat Quinn though.

 

[bustaheims]

The team is in the midst of a rough stretch. It happens. And yet, they've still won 3 of their last 6 games. We're not exactly in end of the world, blow it all up territory here. I don't think anyone will tell you that the team has played well, but, before we start throwing coaches and players under the bus, let's look at things in perspective first and cut out the hyperbole. Let's also remember that different does not always mean better. Firing Wilson won't make the Leafs a better team in and of itself. Unless there's a clear choice out there that will make the players on the ice able to execute a system more effectively, play better defensively and generate more secondary scoring, it becomes change for the sake of change - and that doesn't actually benefit anybody.

 

[bustaheims]

Maybe not... I'm not sure it's any worse of choice than Pat Quinn though.

I wouldn't hire Quinn either. I liked him in his time here, but, I'm not sure he'd be the right coach for this group. I'm also not sure he still has it in him to coach an NHL team on a full time basis. I mean, he's pushing 70. He's probably better off in a front office role than a behind the bench role.

 

[Bender]

Problem is Burke won't do it. Seems content with Wilson regardless of how bad the team looks night in, night out.

It's insane that you would think Burke would allow Wilson to risk his job. He's not a knee jerk guy and I doubt he pulls the trigger right now as the Leafs really aren't doing that badly. But if they're on the outside looking in by Christmas then I think it'd be crazy for you to think that Burke would allow himself to go down with the Wilson ship.

We're not doing that badly?  Have you seen our play the last 5-6 games?  The team has been God awful on most nights, no energy, missing assignments, crappy PK.  It's like we have no system at all.

I've watched the games, and while maybe a coaching change should occur sooner rather than later, generally you don't can a coach with the kind of record we have right now, it's just the way it is. Burke would want Wilson to try to pull himself out before axing him.

But there are two things you haven't addressed.

1) Thinking that Burke would basically allow himself to get fired before he fires Wilson

2) Who do we replace Wilson with?

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss." - Pete Townshend

I say bring up Eakins.  Other teams give new coaches a shot, why not the Leafs?  Instead of looking for some recycled old coach who has been through multiple teams in the past, get someone in here with some new ideas, works with younger players etc.  I think the players who have already spent time on the Marlies will know and respect Eakins.  Our Marlies players seem to be progressing well, I would have to say a lot of credit would go to Eakins for that.  Give him a shot.

Interesting. I love how people just throw Eakins out there. He seems decent enough at development, but he has yet to make the playoffs with the Marlies. Do you see the double standard here? His pts percentage is barely above .500. Even this season they're barely playing .500 hockey.

So you're telling me you want to replace Wilson with a coach who hasn't proven a whole lot even at the AHL level.

Gotcha.

 

[Bender]

The team is in the midst of a rough stretch. It happens. And yet, they've still won 3 of their last 6 games. We're not exactly in end of the world, blow it all up territory here. I don't think anyone will tell you that the team has played well, but, before we start throwing coaches and players under the bus, let's look at things in perspective first and cut out the hyperbole. Let's also remember that different does always mean better. Firing Wilson won't make the Leafs a better team in and of itself. Unless there's a clear choice out there that will make the players on the ice able to execute a system more effectively, play better defensively and generate more secondary scoring, it becomes change for the sake of change - and that doesn't actually benefit anybody.

100% spot on. I agree entirely here. Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease, so I think it would make sense to see what transpires and take a good look if there's any strong coaching talent outside the organization, because some of the options available to us right now aren't a heck of a lot better than Wilson, as far as I can tell.

 

[Fanatic]

Question for cw if he gets a chance to see this....

cw, if Wilson were canned today and hiring the replacemnet was up to you, who would you hire?

Now I realize that the answer could be different depending on who you are in all this - so let's assume that you are Burke - a man who is also starting to come under scutiny and someone who has to be thinking about the need for short term results. In otherwords, who do you hire as coach to make the most difference right now?

 

[Zee]

people just throw Eakins out there. He seems decent enough at development, but he has yet to make the playoffs with the Marlies. Do you see the double standard here? His pts percentage is barely above .500. Even this season they're barely playing .500 hockey.

So you're telling me you want to replace Wilson with a coach who hasn't proven a whole lot even at the AHL level.

Gotcha.

Yep, that's what i'm telling you.  The fundamentals are there for Eakins, his teams aren't piss poor at PK right now, in fact they're #1.  He's also had to deal with having players called up to the Leafs, playing Mark in da Park in net and not having Colborne for a few games has hurt them too.  So all in all he's actually doing a better job than Wilson is, considering Wilson has more talent around him to work with.

 

[cw]

Question for cw if he gets a chance to see this....

cw, if Wilson were canned today and hiring the replacemnet was up to you, who would you hire?

Now I realize that the answer could be different depending on who you are in all this - so let's assume that you are Burke - a man who is also starting to come under scutiny and someone who has to be thinking about the need for short term results. In otherwords, who do you hire as coach to make the most difference right now?

I'm not sure. I've been mulling it over and collecting names mentioned in the media:

Andy Murray
Bob Gainey
Bob Hartley
Cory Clouston
Craig Mctavish
Dale Hunter
Dallas Eakins
Dave Cameron
David Quinn
Davis Payne
Doug Gilmour
Guy Carbonneau
Jacques Lemaire
John Anderson
John Hynes
Kevin McCarthy
Kirk Muller
Kurt Fraser
Kurt Kleinendorst
Lane Lambert
Larry Robinson
Marc Crawford
Mark Hunter
Mark Reeds
Michel Therrien
Mike Haviland
Mike Keenan
Pat Quinn
Patrick Roy
Perry Pearn
Rick Dudley
Scott Gordon
Ted Nolan
Wayne Gretzky
- and I'm sure folks here could add a few names to that list while scratching a bunch they wouldn't consider

Now some of those guys aren't available - they're retired or involved with another organization. Some of them, I don't care for. Some of them haven't coached in a while. Some of them lack experience. Some of them I don't know enough about. Some of them are not a good fit with the talent the Leafs have - too defensively minded for example.

But one thing I would conclude from that list: there are plenty of potential candidates. And therefore, I can't conclude there isn't available coaching talent out there that might be able to do a better job than Wilson.

I think it depends on what Burke wants to do. Is an interim coach a possibility for Burke? It would be if I was in his boots and ready to cut Wilson loose but I don't think Burke is close to there yet. If that were the case, I suspect Burke would look closely from within: Eakins or one of Wilson's newly hired assistants.

Short term, a coach with NHL experience would probably be ideal for a mid-season change to salvage the season and I'd look closer at these guys (on the presumption a bunch of the above NHL coaches are not available):
Andy Murray - doubt he can leave Michigan but ..
John Anderson - if available from Phoenix
Pat Quinn - too old for serious consideration long term - might have 50 games left in him

Longer term, at the end of the season, these guys intrigue me:
Kirk Muller
Mark Reeds
Mike Haviland

I don't care for the Keenan-Crawford-Hartley style of coaching or they would be obvious candidates. Someone like Carbonneau is a respectable NHL coach but I worry he's too defensively minded to salvage this group this season.

So I don't have a firm answer. Those are my thoughts to date.

 

[bustaheims]

So all in all he's actually doing a better job than Wilson is, considering Wilson has more talent around him to work with.

From a pure apples to apples comparison, sure, but, from a relative comparison . . . I feel like the Marlies might be more talented in comparison to the rest of the AHL than the Leafs are to the rest of the NHL.

 

[Corn Flake]

I still say if anything changes with Wilson, Scott Gordon will get the job in the interim and likely permanently. I think Eakins would get the call up to take Gordon's place as assistant.  Maybe HE can whip the PK into shape.

But none of this happens unless the Leafs tumble right out of the post season contention and although things are messy at times right now this team is nowhere near as inept as they were this time last year.  I see them treading water at about .500 until Reimer gets back.  God I hope that is soon.

 

[Fanatic]

mirtleJames Mirtle
Wilson on who will start in goal tomorrow: "A goalie. He'll be wearing two pads. A mask. Probably with a Leafs logo on it. How's that?"


Is Wilson stressed?

 

[cw]

mirtleJames Mirtle
Wilson on who will start in goal tomorrow: "A goalie. He'll be wearing two pads. A mask. Probably with a Leafs logo on it. How's that?"


Is Wilson stressed?

He's told the media countless times during his time in Toronto that he will not broadcast to the other team's coach which goalie is starting a day or two in advance. It allows the opposing coach to focus on preparing to face a particular goalie.

 

[bustaheims]

mirtleJames Mirtle
Wilson on who will start in goal tomorrow: "A goalie. He'll be wearing two pads. A mask. Probably with a Leafs logo on it. How's that?"


Is Wilson stressed?

I get the feeling it's more annoyed with constantly being asked who's starting the next game - especially when it starts as early as the post-game scrums/press conferences.

 

[Optimus Reimer]

The team is in the midst of a rough stretch. It happens. And yet, they've still won 3 of their last 6 games. We're not exactly in end of the world, blow it all up territory here. I don't think anyone will tell you that the team has played well, but, before we start throwing coaches and players under the bus, let's look at things in perspective first and cut out the hyperbole. Let's also remember that different does not always mean better. Firing Wilson won't make the Leafs a better team in and of itself. Unless there's a clear choice out there that will make the players on the ice able to execute a system more effectively, play better defensively and generate more secondary scoring, it becomes change for the sake of change - and that doesn't actually benefit anybody.

I have always respected your posts - they are written with wisdom and insight, but I totally disagree with you on this one. 

If I am an opposing coach of a team facing the Leafs, I am going to emphasize on my players to forecheck, be agressive to the puck and to the puck carrier, skating hard and fast and to pressure the d-men.  I am going to emphasize muddling up the neutral zone, forcing the Leafs to shoot the puck in.  On the PK, I will emphasize to the players to keep the Leafs around the perimeter and cut down on the shooting lanes.  On the PP, I will emphasize passing the puck back and forth, thus forcing the Leaf players to play 'chase the puck'.  I will send at least one player to the front of the net during the PP, making it hard for the Leaf goalie to make the save and perhaps drawing another penalty by a Leafs defender.  At all times have my best defensive forward against Kessel.

If every team played that way against the Leafs, I guarantee the Leafs would not win many games, and that is why Wilson should be fired.  He cannot adapt the players to counter what other teams are doing to the Leafs.

 

[jonlleafs]

mirtleJames Mirtle
Wilson on who will start in goal tomorrow: "A goalie. He'll be wearing two pads. A mask. Probably with a Leafs logo on it. How's that?"


Is Wilson stressed?

I get the feeling it's more annoyed with constantly being asked who's starting the next game - especially when it starts as early as the post-game scrums/press conferences.

I don't think he's stressed.  I think he's just annoyed like you said.  I for one think it's refreshing to have Burke/Wilson here telling the media to stick it up theirs.  For far too long this media has erected statues for players unworthy and created that sense of entitlement.  I see the whole culture of this team to be far different than in previous eras.  There is a sense of competitiveness and drive now.  Not resting on your laurels anymore.  If I could tell Wilson anything, it'd be to keep it up.  I loved the whole, "why don't you call the goalie's mothers to find out who will start" comment.  Totally put into perspective how it's become a sh** show in the media now.  Are there no boundaries?  What's next?  Calling the player's home and trying to trick their 8yr old kid into telling them if their daddy will start the next game?

 

[Corn Flake]

The team is in the midst of a rough stretch. It happens. And yet, they've still won 3 of their last 6 games. We're not exactly in end of the world, blow it all up territory here. I don't think anyone will tell you that the team has played well, but, before we start throwing coaches and players under the bus, let's look at things in perspective first and cut out the hyperbole. Let's also remember that different does not always mean better. Firing Wilson won't make the Leafs a better team in and of itself. Unless there's a clear choice out there that will make the players on the ice able to execute a system more effectively, play better defensively and generate more secondary scoring, it becomes change for the sake of change - and that doesn't actually benefit anybody.

I have always respected your posts - they are written with wisdom and insight, but I totally disagree with you on this one. 

If I am an opposing coach of a team facing the Leafs, I am going to emphasize on my players to forecheck, be agressive to the puck and to the puck carrier, skating hard and fast and to pressure the d-men.  I am going to emphasize muddling up the neutral zone, forcing the Leafs to shoot the puck in.  On the PK, I will emphasize to the players to keep the Leafs around the perimeter and cut down on the shooting lanes.  On the PP, I will emphasize passing the puck back and forth, thus forcing the Leaf players to play 'chase the puck'.  I will send at least one player to the front of the net during the PP, making it hard for the Leaf goalie to make the save and perhaps drawing another penalty by a Leafs defender.  At all times have my best defensive forward against Kessel.

If every team played that way against the Leafs, I guarantee the Leafs would not win many games, and that is why Wilson should be fired.  He cannot adapt the players to counter what other teams are doing to the Leafs.

In fairness, most coaches emphasize those things when they face any other team in the NHL and their respective best players, and not just the Leafs.

 

[cabber24]

Can they not seriously figure out the PK after 3 seasons? It is truly ridiculous. The last few years they have had at least two lines of "penalty killers and roll players" and still made zero progress. With the ca-billion people they have on staff can they not hire a PK coach? If this truly is on Wilson he should be fired. It's broke, it doesn't work, it's not going to work (still 30th), FIRE HIM and fix it.

 

[Bender]

The team is in the midst of a rough stretch. It happens. And yet, they've still won 3 of their last 6 games. We're not exactly in end of the world, blow it all up territory here. I don't think anyone will tell you that the team has played well, but, before we start throwing coaches and players under the bus, let's look at things in perspective first and cut out the hyperbole. Let's also remember that different does not always mean better. Firing Wilson won't make the Leafs a better team in and of itself. Unless there's a clear choice out there that will make the players on the ice able to execute a system more effectively, play better defensively and generate more secondary scoring, it becomes change for the sake of change - and that doesn't actually benefit anybody.

I have always respected your posts - they are written with wisdom and insight, but I totally disagree with you on this one. 

If I am an opposing coach of a team facing the Leafs, I am going to emphasize on my players to forecheck, be agressive to the puck and to the puck carrier, skating hard and fast and to pressure the d-men.  I am going to emphasize muddling up the neutral zone, forcing the Leafs to shoot the puck in.  On the PK, I will emphasize to the players to keep the Leafs around the perimeter and cut down on the shooting lanes.  On the PP, I will emphasize passing the puck back and forth, thus forcing the Leaf players to play 'chase the puck'.  I will send at least one player to the front of the net during the PP, making it hard for the Leaf goalie to make the save and perhaps drawing another penalty by a Leafs defender.  At all times have my best defensive forward against Kessel.

If every team played that way against the Leafs, I guarantee the Leafs would not win many games, and that is why Wilson should be fired.  He cannot adapt the players to counter what other teams are doing to the Leafs.

In fairness, most coaches emphasize those things when they face any other team in the NHL and their respective best players, and not just the Leafs.

Yeah, I mean it's not like those are exactly fresh ideas. Do you know how much studying these people do prior to games? I really think some people are dismissing the amount of preparation work the coach really does.

 

[bustaheims]

In fairness, most coaches emphasize those things when they face any other team in the NHL and their respective best players, and not just the Leafs.

That was pretty much what I was thinking. You do that successfully against any team in the league, and you're probably going to win. It's the teams with high talent levels that make it harder to accomplish that against on a regular basis, and, unfortunately, what we're seeing is that the Leafs aren't one of those teams - which, really, shouldn't be a surprise to anyone and doesn't have a whole lot to do with coaching. Wilson may not be the right coach for the Leafs, but the team's failings have less to do with coaching and a lot more to do with not having an abundance of talent combined with some really poor execution and reads. They're better than they have been the past couple seasons, but, they're still very much a middle of the pack, on the playoff bubble type team.