Useless Thread

[Bender]

While I agree that there are issues with social inequality and jobs, I don't see how protesting will help people get jobs, I just don't.

The goal is to bring about the political changes that would result in a more equitable society. This isn't a job interview.

Ok, but this wouldn't happen during a boom market imo. If everyone had more jobs and job security and we were out of the recession we would never see something like this happen. So to some degree this protest is about job security.

And for more of a side note: I also believe in creating a more equitable society but when you carry around pictures of Marx like he's a saviour then I think some of the debate shifts beyond what is equitable and into a whole other mode of production, that quite clearly clashes with what we have today. Maybe the intent is that he's a role model for change, but, to be honest, he's a very divisive figure.

And just to add a bit: Everyone is talking about inequality: The inequality of what? Everything currently?

New chant: "they say cut backs, we say fight back."

To what end? Do we want higher taxation on corporations? The wealthiest Canadians? Because the answer isn't that simple when your province is bleeding money and is up to its eyeballs in debt right now and going through a recession to boot.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/commentary/neil-reynolds/ontario-like-california-going-for-broke/article1684035/


Maybe I'm not one for general sloganeering, or maybe I'm misinterpreting their zeal as a lack of focus, but I think the discussion should start with a shift in philosophy from laissez-faire capitalist economics and a move back to Keyenesian economic policy which did a better job of bucking recessions. We also have gross mismanagement of finances. In times of economic boom you have to restrain yourself from overburdening yourself with projects and initiatives that you'll have to cut during a recession, and you've got to make sure you save some of the money during a boom market to pay for job creation initiatives during a recession. It's this utter failure of looking forward that has caused this problem.

 

[Kin]

Ok, but this wouldn't happen during a boom market imo.

It depends on what you mean by a boom market. The reality is that the Dow Jones or TSE aren't terrific economic indicators for a lot of people. If it was something more central to the lives of most people, like the median household income compared to the cost of living you might be right but that's like saying anti-war protests are pointless because nobody would show up if there weren't any wars. 

If everyone had more jobs and job security and we were out of the recession we would never see something like this happen.

I don't think that's true. Unemployment has risen...1 percent? 2 percent in the last few years? I don't think that the breaking point is whether 92% of people are employed or 90%. I think it's the more pressing issues that affect the majority of people.

And for more of a side note: I also believe in creating a more equitable society but when you carry around pictures of Marx like he's a saviour then I think some of the debate shifts beyond what is equitable and into a whole other mode of production, that quite clearly clashes with what we have today.

First off, I haven't seen a ton of people claiming Marxist ideologies as being central to the OWS movement.

But if they are, so what? It's no more important that these people to be completely up on The Communist Manifesto than it was that the Tea Party have read Wealth of Nations or John Locke. At issue is whether or not they can unify a grassroots movement into an organized political voting block.

And just to add a bit: Everyone is talking about inequality: The inequality of what? Everything currently?

At a guess, economic disparity and political access. 

To what end? Do we want higher taxation on corporations? The wealthiest Canadians? Because the answer isn't that simple when your province is bleeding money and is up to its eyeballs in debt right now and going through a recession to boot.

I don't think anyone would look at those things as the be all and end all of the movement but they're probably good starts. 

 

[TheMightyOdin]

I had heard that one of the occupy wall street points was to establish a $20 an hour minimum wage. Not sure where I heard this or if it's even true.

 

[Bates]

Minimum wage can increase as much as anyone wants and it will never be enough money to give someone a good quality of life.  As min wage increasese so does all other wages and thus the prices of all goods also increase leading to min wage not being enough to live off.  It's a viscious cycle that only gets better with moving yourself above the min wage job market.

 

[Sucker Punch]

There's an article in the paper this morning about Occupy Newfoundland which took place this weekend.  They interviewed the lead organizer, and asked him about the criticism that their goals are vague and unrealistic.  The organizer fella disagreed, then went on to state that the clear, realistic goal was to make people think for themselves and not put blind faith in politicians.

Which still seems vague and unrealistic to me.

 

[L K]

Yes, shamanism is clearly the answer. Maybe he's a fringe guy, but still. I don't believe in people advocating snake oil methods of treatment, I think it's downright despicable. I'm not saying that botched operations and prescription drugs don't have the possibility to kill people, but to turn away from tested methods with chances of survival for "even shamanism"?

That's a pretty narrow view, I doubt you've done much reading or investigation of what that term and how it applies really means. Western medicine is obviously rooted in the scientific method and that's what we're used to for the most part ( and yes, thankfully in many ways ) but to lump an incredibly large part of world societal belief and action into 'snake oil' euphemisms serves no purpose to me, it's as bad as lumping medical malpractice insinuations onto every MD or suggesting openly that the Catholic Church is just another cult or that every banker is a greedy despicable sob.

I don't know him but what the guy seems to be saying is that alternative health care choices should be investigated which is difficult for me to outright disagree with and I think you're kind of changing the focus by going after Shamanism, it was a tag notion to the greater point.

Usually when someone says 'even...x' they mean it's admittedly/probably on the fringe.

The problem is that if you don't regulate the profession that a lot of snake-oil salesmanship sneaks in among the stuff that has actual benefit.  The next problem is that a lot of the alternative stuff will fight tooth and nail to avoid the same regulatory requirements that "Western medicine" have.  You can't have it both ways.  If pharmaceuticals didn't have to go through 5 phases of clinical trials on top of dozens of failed attempts to develop a drug in the first place they wouldn't be nearly as expensive as people hate them to be.

 

[Kin]

Minimum wage can increase as much as anyone wants and it will never be enough money to give someone a good quality of life.  As min wage increasese so does all other wages and thus the prices of all goods also increase leading to min wage not being enough to live off.  It's a viscious cycle that only gets better with moving yourself above the min wage job market.

That's really not true. Ontario recently saw a significant increase to its minimum wage and didn't see a corresponding bump in inflation anything resembling what you're describing.

 

[Bates]

Take a look at SK as a real better example Nik.  They starting drastic increases in min wage about 3 or 4 years ago.  House prices have since doubled.  Almost every Govt Union has been on strike or threathened job action for major wage increases.  Property taxes have increased by large amounts every year.  I actually run a retail pet store and while I would agree that prices and such did not instantly increase, as that would drive customers away, I have found myself constantly adjusting prices to cope with increased costs from products and staff.  The same bag of dog food that I sold for $40 4 years ago is now almost $70.

When min wage was under $7 per hour here about 5 years ago I ran a 15,000 sq/ft store with payroll at about $15K every 2 weeks.  I now run a 5000 sq/ft store with payroll at around $13K every 2 weeks.  How do you think this increase in payroll gets paid for?  Price increases and margin increases.

The prob with min wage increases is the effect it has on all wages.  If the guy making $7 per hour gets a Govt mandated increase to $10 per hour do you think the guy now getting $10 per hour will be happy keeping that wage?  How about the the $20 per hour guy?  All wages start to increase slowly after every min wage increase.  Now the cost of everything has to increase and eventually(months) min wage once again leads to min wage earners don't make enough for decent quality of life.

 

[Kin]

Take a look at SK as a real better example Nik.

One isn't a better example because it backs up your point. Back in the day I looked at this issue pretty extensively and it's just a stark reality that increases to the minimum wage don't lead to corresponding bumps in inflation or the CPI the way you're claiming they do. Those things tend to hang on various other factors such as the general health of the economy.

Admittedly, I don't know a ton about the dog food business but I have to assume that the same massive bump that most commodities have seen plays a pretty substantial role in whatever price increases it's seen. All food prices are raising disproportionately with just about anything else in the world.

 

[Bates]

SK is a better example because there has been enough time pass since massive increases to see what the effects were.  You stated that Ont"s increases were recent so I would guess not enough time to see changes I have seen in SK.  Can you honestly tell me that a huge increase in one of the imput costs of any product such as wages will not lead to an increase in the price of that product?  And can you again tell me that all wage earners above min wage will just happily keep their present wages while min wage earners get a large Govt mandated wage increase? 

 

[Kin]

SK is a better example because there has been enough time pass since massive increases to see what the effects were.  You stated that Ont"s increases were recent so I would guess not enough time to see changes I have seen in SK.

Well, you know what they say about assumptions. Gradual increases to the minimum wage in Ontario started in 2007 so if your "three or four years ago" is bang on then it's been the same stretch of time.

Can you honestly tell me that a huge increase in one of the imput costs of any product such as wages will not lead to an increase in the price of that product?

Well, the general calculation of inflation is price against purchasing power so the argument supported by the numbers is that the input costs are balanced by the subsequent bump in purchasing power.

And can you again tell me that all wage earners above min wage will just happily keep their present wages while min wage earners get a large Govt mandated wage increase?

You're making an economic argument with words here. How are these things measured? What has happened to the median wage in Sask post-minimum wage bump? Personal anecdotal evidence is fine and dandy but the reality of wide sweeping policy like the minimum wage is that it will affect different businesses differently.

 

[Bates]

I think below you have essentially agreed with my arguement that increses in min wage will do nothing for the min wage worker in terms of purchasing power.  as min wage increases so do the costs of the very products/services they need to purchase.  It's a chicken/egg scenerio.  What goes up first prices or wages.  Either way I will stick to my thought that min wage will never be an income that someone can live a decent quiality of life on.



Well, the general calculation of inflation is price against purchasing power so the argument supported by the numbers is that the input costs are balanced by the subsequent bump in purchasing power.

 

[Kin]

I think below you have essentially agreed with my arguement that increses in min wage will do nothing for the min wage worker in terms of purchasing power.

Quite the opposite, I'm afraid. I'm saying that the lack of evidence of the kind of inflation rate increase you're talking about makes a compelling argument that purchasing power does increase with a minimum wage increase provided you're right about the increase of production costs.

  It's a chicken/egg scenerio.  What goes up first prices or wages.  Either way I will stick to my thought that min wage will never be an income that someone can live a decent quiality of life on.

Again, it's an economic argument. If these things are established fact, there would be evidence for them. There isn't really.

The problem with the minimum wage has been that for years and years the CPI jumped as per the natural ways of things while minimum wage remained stagnant. Increasing the minimum wage to accurately reflect it's purpose as a social policy doesn't have immediate or certain repercussions.

 

[Tigger]

The problem is that if you don't regulate the profession that a lot of snake-oil salesmanship sneaks in among the stuff that has actual benefit.  The next problem is that a lot of the alternative stuff will fight tooth and nail to avoid the same regulatory requirements that "Western medicine" have.  You can't have it both ways.  If pharmaceuticals didn't have to go through 5 phases of clinical trials on top of dozens of failed attempts to develop a drug in the first place they wouldn't be nearly as expensive as people hate them to be.

First off I agree that any alternatives embraced in such a fashion need to be regulated but I also don't hold my breath that such regulations are immune to Quacks and charlatans, see Larry Stowe and Dr. Frank Morales as an example.

On the whole I don't think we really disagree here I just don't like the 'dirty word' factor.

 

[Scot4bz]

Toronto did not seem quite occupied enough.....so I did my part by staying in "the stall" a little longer today.

Stickin' it to the man ;D

 

[Kin]

Calvin and Hobbes brilliantly sums up the OWS movement decades beforehand:

Supply and Demand

 

[Sucker Punch]

So the rule is to tip your waitress 15%.

What about taxi drivers?
What about pizza delivery guys?
What about when you go to pick up takeout, and the debit machine asks you to enter a tip?

 

[Kin]

So the rule is to tip your waitress 15%.

What about taxi drivers?
What about pizza delivery guys?
What about when you go to pick up takeout, and the debit machine asks you to enter a tip?

I don't know if there's as established a protocol for those first two things as there is for a server at a restaurant. Personally
I wouldn't tip anyone if I were ordering take-out. Typically with delivery/cab drivers my tip will be more about rounding up than it will trying to work out a percentage as I don't want to fumble with change in either situation.

 

[Ronco]

Wind storm. Put out your Blue bin share your plastic with the neighborhood, or go out on the street several times grabbing items you "Know" are yours and like a fool try to put said item back in blue bin.

Repeat.

Next day no wind at all. Never fails.

 

[Stebro]

Hurray! One of the channels I have will broadcast all NHL-games soon in Sweden. Which should mean that I can watch the leafs all the time, unfortunately they will start with that after New Years, but I'm gonna go nuts when it starts. It will be interesting to work on a few hours of sleep on a regular basis again