2011-2012 NHL Thread

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Honestly, Rolsron's numbers don't impress me at all. He's how many years removed from a 40 pt. season? 4? I wouldn't be shocked to see the two players put up similar numbers this year. I'd say Hunter is probably the better all around player at this point and therefore, of more "value" than Rolston. - Especially considering the salary.

To say that about a guy with no statistical weight to back it up, his health is so bad he only managed 17 games last season.

 

[Kin]

Honestly, Rolsron's numbers don't impress me at all.

I'm not looking to impress you. I'm saying they're better than Hunter's.

He's how many years removed from a 40 pt. season? 4?

Or the exact same amount of time since Hunter's last 40 point season. Which would put them on equal footing if Hunter's last 40 point season weren't a 12 goal, 41 point season and Rolston's a 31 goal, 59 point season.

  I'd say Hunter is probably the better all around player at this point

So Rolston scores at a better clip, is used more on the PK and isn't coming off of a major knee surgery but Hunter is the better all around player?

and therefore, of more "value" than Rolston. - Especially considering the salary.

Which is, of course, nonsense. Rolston's high salary is part of what makes him attractive to the Islanders.

Like WIGWAL said, your argument would make sense if this were the Trent Hunter of 4-5 years ago. Of late he's been of little use to the Islanders when in the lineup, which isn't often.

 

[maplesyrup]

Honestly, Rolsron's numbers don't impress me at all. He's how many years removed from a 40 pt. season? 4? I wouldn't be shocked to see the two players put up similar numbers this year. I'd say Hunter is probably the better all around player at this point and therefore, of more "value" than Rolston. - Especially considering the salary.

To say that about a guy with no statistical weight to back it up, his health is so bad he only managed 17 games last season.

I'm just saying Rolston hasn't been able to crack 40 pts in 4 seasons. If both players played roughly the same amount of games, I think its safe to say their point totals wouldn't be more that 8/9 off from each other which to me, just isn't worth noting that much. Also consider Hunter would get those points playing bottom 6 minutes. Excuse me for not liking the deal from the Isles perspective - again, assuming Hunter is healthy. 

 

[maplesyrup]

Rolston's high salary is part of what makes him attractive to the Islanders.

Well, sure... that we can agree on.

 

[Kin]

Also consider Hunter would get those points playing bottom 6 minutes.

That's also fairly misleading. In Hunter's last semi-healthy season he played 15:10 a game with essentially no PK time. Rolston, last year, played 17:36 a game but with 1:33 of that being PK time. There's really no substantial difference between the two in terms of ice time other than Rolston's versatility.

 

[maplesyrup]

I'd love to see Snow do a similar deal now for Komisarek.

 

[Kin]

I'd love to see Snow do a similar deal now for Komisarek.

I don't see a similar deal to be made. Komisarek's still under contract at a 4.5 hit for 3 seasons(although only owed 11 million). I'm not sure there's anyone on the Islanders who's a comparable player owed roughly the same amount of money that the Leafs would want to take on.

I think Snow's done a really good job with this Islanders team considering the constraints he's had to work with. He's got tons of cap space, hasn't signed any horrendous contracts and has a bunch of young talent in the system.

 

[bustaheims]

I understand the long tradition of ripping on the Isles but this doesn't really fit in with that at all.

Well, to me, the humour is less to do with the specifics of this trade and more to do with the overall situation that left them in a position where they had to take on a player that cleared waivers 3 times (I believe) last season just to begin their attempt to reach the cap floor (they still have almost $6M to go and may have to overpay Bailey and Comeau to do it, depending on what they do with Niederreiter). There's also some mild amusement from the fact that they didn't add an additional asset in this deal. I mean, freeing up $2M from the cap next season would be all well and good for them if they were a serious threat to push the cap ceiling, but, I'd have to say the odds are strongly against that. In fact, there's a good chance they'll be looking for similar, cap hit adding deals next summer.

 

[maplesyrup]

I'd love to see Snow do a similar deal now for Komisarek.

I don't see a similar deal to be made. Komisarek's still under contract at a 4.5 hit for 3 seasons(although only owed 11 million). I'm not sure there's anyone on the Islanders who's a comparable player owed roughly the same amount of money that the Leafs would want to take on.

I think Snow's done a really good job with this Islanders team considering the constraints he's had to work with. He's got tons of cap space, hasn't signed any horrendous contracts and has a bunch of young talent in the system.

I don't know. Isn't his "young talent" a result of his team's bad performance? Has he been better than Milbury? Absolutely. Not even worth comparing the two. Snow hasn't really pulled a franchise crippling move or anything but a "really good job?" I suppose its a matter of perspective.

 

[bustaheims]

I think Snow's done a really good job with this Islanders team considering the constraints he's had to work with. He's got tons of cap space, hasn't signed any horrendous contracts and has a bunch of young talent in the system.

THe thing about cap space is that it's really only valuable if you're able to use it, and, we've really seen nothing from the Islanders over the past few seasons that has shown their ownership is willing to have a payroll that goes significantly north of $50M (and hitting $50M might even be pushing it). Snow's cap space doesn't strike me as anything but the result of having to work within a very tight budget and is unlikely to be able to turned into a useful asset.

 

[Kin]

Well, to me, the humour is less to do with the specifics of this trade and more to do with the overall situation that left them in a position where they had to take on a player that cleared waivers 3 times (I believe) last season just to begin their attempt to reach the cap floor (they still have almost $6M to go and may have to overpay Bailey and Comeau to do it, depending on what they do with Niederreiter). There's also some mild amusement from the fact that they didn't add an additional asset in this deal. I mean, freeing up $2M from the cap next season would be all well and good for them if they were a serious threat to push the cap ceiling, but, I'd have to say the odds are strongly against that. In fact, there's a good chance they'll be looking for similar, cap hit adding deals next summer.

I would guess, in the Islander's current situation, that just saving that two million dollars may have as much appeal as any sort of cap issue. Like I said, the financial implications of this deal for the Islanders are pretty minimal. Next year the Islanders will have to pay Tavares and have a couple other guys who could be due significant raises so, provided Comeau/Bailey get anything substantial, I have to assume that they'll probably be in a better cap situation than they were this year.

I think there's a mistaken belief here that the Islanders had a great deal of leverage. They're in a situation, in part because they don't have any non-Dipietro contracts that are ridiculous, where they have to add salary so, provided they like Rolston, it's a win-win for them. Could they have said "we'll take Rolston but you have to throw in a draft pick"? Maybe. But maybe that means NJ looks to another team looking to reach the floor. Rolston's a player whose value is going to be entirely negated by his contract except to teams looking to hit the floor so teams passing on him during the season doesn't say a great deal.

The humour kind of reads like "Ha-ha, the Islanders have to take on lousy one year salaries because they don't have a bunch of overpaid, underachieving stiffs".

 

[Kin]

I don't know. Isn't his "young talent" a result of his team's bad performance? Has he been better than Milbury? Absolutely. Not even worth comparing the two. Snow hasn't really pulled a franchise crippling move or anything but a "really good job?" I suppose its a matter of perspective.

In other NHL markets they typically call accumulating talent by virtue of being bad for a few years "building".

And there's absolutely no reason to put guys like De Haan, Tavares and Neidereitter in quotation marks when talking about them as talent.

 

[bustaheims]

The humour kind of reads like "Ha-ha, the Islanders have to take on lousy one year salaries because they don't have a bunch of overpaid, underachieving stiffs".

I see it more as them having to take on lousy one year salaries because they've had significant issues attracting talent through free agency (which, while it may frequently not provide great price-performance, it does frequently lead to better quality players).

 

[Kin]

THe thing about cap space is that it's really only valuable if you're able to use it, and, we've really seen nothing from the Islanders over the past few seasons that has shown their ownership is willing to have a payroll that goes significantly north of $50M (and hitting $50M might even be pushing it). Snow's cap space doesn't strike me as anything but the result of having to work within a very tight budget and is unlikely to be able to turned into a useful asset.

Sure but assuming that part of the financial constraints that we've seen from the Islanders of late has been a result of Wang's trying to save money until the Lighthouse project comes to be and that there's a plan in place to spend more once there is a commitment from Nassau County then Snow has them very well positioned to take advantage of that. Even if the Lighthouse is ultimately defeated the Islanders are in good shape for whatever may come after that.

If you want to make the argument that the Islanders aren't a great organization, go ahead. I just don't think any of that can be put on Garth Snow. All a GM can do is work with what he has and I think he's got a young, talented bunch. He's made a lot of moves outside of Tavares that look pretty good right now.

 

[Kin]

I see it more as them having to take on lousy one year salaries because they've had significant issues attracting talent through free agency (which, while it may frequently not provide great price-performance, it does frequently lead to better quality players).

It's kind of six of one, half a dozen of the other. Look no further than a couple posts above you to see a Leafs fan hoping the Islanders will take one of the Leafs free agency blunders off of Burke's hands.

But even so, if we're going to ignore their cap space as an asset because they've had trouble using it I think we have to acknowledge that the cap floor being what it is a contract like Rolston's isn't really a black mark against them but it's actually a pretty smart thing for them to do. Yes, they wouldn't have to have taken it on if they could have signed Ville Leino to his ridiculous deal but I'd much rather have one year of Rolston than a roll the dice FA deal for 5-6 years.

 

[bustaheims]

It's kind of six of one, half a dozen of the other. Look no further than a couple posts above you to see a Leafs fan hoping the Islanders will take one of the Leafs free agency blunders off of Burke's hands.

But even so, if we're going to ignore their cap space as an asset because they've had trouble using it I think we have to acknowledge that the cap floor being what it is a contract like Rolston's isn't really a black mark against them but it's actually a pretty smart thing for them to do. Yes, they wouldn't have to have taken it on if they could have signed Ville Leino to his ridiculous deal but I'd much rather have one year of Rolston than a roll the dice FA deal for 5-6 years.

Sure, but, signings similar to the likes of Ian White (2 years at just under $3M per) or Simon Gagne (2 years @ $3.5M per) would have essentially served the same purpose as this trade (for this season and next), while adding more to their talent base without leaving them with with any serious cap albatrosses. If they were a stronger organization at all levels outside of their prospect base, they might have been able to attract these types of players and avoided the negativity that is associated with adding bad contracts just to hit the cap floor.

 

[Kin]

Sure, but, signings similar to the likes of Ian White (2 years at just under $3M per) or Simon Gagne (2 years @ $3.5M per) would have essentially served the same purpose as this trade (for this season and next), while adding more to their talent base without leaving them with with any serious cap albatrosses. If they were a stronger organization at all levels outside of their prospect base, they might have been able to attract these types of players and avoided the negativity that is associated with adding bad contracts just to hit the cap floor.

Sure but there you've got a couple of players signing reasonable deals in order to be on contenders. I'm sure Garth Snow would have loved to sign those deals. That he's unable to still isn't his failing. He's not responsible for the fact that Long Island isn't the draw that LA is and he can't do anything about the difference between Mike Ilitch and Charles Wang.

I'd still rather my GM take on a deal like Rolston's than a bad long-term deal which Snow's avoided. I'm sure Snow could have found a willing UFA who was all about the dollars and thrown a truckload at them but the reality is the same negativity is there if Scottie Upshall gets 4 years and 20 million. Here Snow found a way to turn his need to add salary into an asset. He got a potentially useful player in Rolston, only gave up a bad contract to get him and has no commitments after this year.

I mean, if you look at what Snow took over from, where his organization is now and the resources he's had to get there you can easily argue that Snow's done as good a job as Brian Burke.

 

[Frank E]

Chicken and egg.

 

[seahawk]

Rolston's high salary is part of what makes him attractive to the Islanders.

Well, sure... that we can agree on.

I think that Rolston only has 1 year left on his contract also appeals to Snow. He puts up a crappy season and they can walk away with no commitment.

 

[princedpw]

I mean, if you look at what Snow took over from, where his organization is now and the resources he's had to get there you can easily argue that Snow's done as good a job as Brian Burke.

I hate agreeing with Nik but I think I'm obliged to here.

I was one of the people who laughed at the fact that the islanders signed their backup goalie, a guy with apparently no managerial experience, to be their GM.  On the face of it, it is absurd.  But if you can get by the circumstances in which he came to be GM and look at his overall record and the relative difficulty of his situation, he has done a solid job.