2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread

[bustaheims]

Thrilled to finally see Lawrie but how they're handling Snider puzzels me. Just let him try to hit as much MLB pitching as he can for God's sake. It's not like we're competing for a playoff spot or anything.

THe problem with Snider is that he's not learning anything, and when he struggles at the MLB level, he goes back to the same bad habits that got him demoted in the past and hasn't shown the ability to get away from them. There are some pretty massive holes in his swing right now that MLB pitchers are exploiting, and he hasn't shown that he's willing and/or able to learn how to fix it. You can go on and on about wanting to give him more shots against MLB pitching all you want, but, what I see (and, what I imagine the organization sees) is a player who is unable or unwilling to learn at the MLB level and a situation where increased exposure to MLB pitching is quite likely to do more harm than good. I'd leave him in AAA for the rest of the year while completely rebuilding his approach at the plate, his stance and his swing from the ground up.

EDIT: Seriously, the guy has struck out 20 times in his last 54 ABs. That's unacceptable when he only has 2 extra base hits (and 8 hits overall) in that same span.

 

[maplesyrup]

Thrilled to finally see Lawrie but how they're handling Snider puzzels me. Just let him try to hit as much MLB pitching as he can for God's sake. It's not like we're competing for a playoff spot or anything.

THe problem with Snider is that he's not learning anything, and when he struggles at the MLB level, he goes back to the same bad habits that got him demoted in the past and hasn't shown the ability to get away from them. There are some pretty massive holes in his swing right now that MLB pitchers are exploiting, and he hasn't shown that he's willing and/or able to learn how to fix it. You can go on and on about wanting to give him more shots against MLB pitching all you want, but, what I see (and, what I imagine the organization sees) is a player who is unable or unwilling to learn at the MLB level and a situation where increased exposure to MLB pitching is quite likely to do more harm than good. I'd leave him in AAA for the rest of the year while completely rebuilding his approach at the plate, his stance and his swing from the ground up.

EDIT: Seriously, the guy has struck out 20 times in his last 54 ABs. That's unacceptable when he only has 2 extra base hits (and 8 hits overall) in that same span.

I guess. Though I'm truly puzzled about what has happened with him. I mean, he was just such a dominant minor league hitter. 

 

[bustaheims]

I guess. Though I'm truly puzzled about what has happened with him. I mean, he was just such a dominant minor league hitter.

Minor league pitchers generally have less control over their pitches, which mean they're less able to take advantage of the holes in Snider's swing and they're also going to make more mistakes and leave pitches where he can hit them. MLB pitchers, on the other hand, generally have pretty good command of their pitches and make a lot less mistakes.

 

[maplesyrup]

I guess. Though I'm truly puzzled about what has happened with him. I mean, he was just such a dominant minor league hitter.

Minor league pitchers generally have less control over their pitches, which mean they're less able to take advantage of the holes in Snider's swing and they're also going to make more mistakes and leave pitches where he can hit them. MLB pitchers, on the other hand, generally have pretty good command of their pitches and make a lot less mistakes.

True... but do you remember Snider's minor league OPS? Sick. I mean some of that I thought should have translated you'd think.

 

[Kin]

True... but do you remember Snider's minor league OPS? Sick. I mean some of that I thought should have translated you'd think.

Baseball prospects...there's no rhyme or reason.

 

[maplesyrup]

True... but do you remember Snider's minor league OPS? Sick. I mean some of that I thought should have translated you'd think.

Baseball prospects...there's no rhyme or reason.

Seems the same with my grammar from time to time. What a horribly worded post.  :-[

 

[Kin]

Although it does seem as though Snider is the only guy who gets his PT reduced for poor performance. I'd rather see Snider on the club than Davis.

 

[bustaheims]

Although it does seem as though Snider is the only guy who gets his PT reduced for poor performance. I'd rather see Snider on the club than Davis.

Davis also saw his playing time drastically reduced because of his play and the play of Thames. And, in the long-term, rebuilding Snider in the minors is the better course of action. If he's not starting, Snider shouldn't be on the big club. At least Davis serves a purpose as a bench player, as he's an excellent option for pinch running late in close games.

 

[Kin]

Davis also saw his playing time drastically reduced because of his play and the play of Thames. And, in the long-term, rebuilding Snider in the minors is the better course of action. If he's not starting, Snider shouldn't be on the big club. At least Davis serves a purpose as a bench player, as he's an excellent option for pinch running late in close games.

I don't know that "Rebuilding" a baseball player is a definite enough course of action that we can say it's better than giving a guy major league at-bats in the hopes that he adjusts under the tutelage of a MLB hitting coach. Either way, it definitely seems that the string on Snider is shorter than it is for others. Snider got what, 100 at-bats? Davis has 300 this year. Aaron Hill's at 347 AB's with a OPS 30 points lower than Snider and they keep dragging his corpse out there.

I just think they should show slightly more patience with Snider.

 

[dappleganger]

Davis also saw his playing time drastically reduced because of his play and the play of Thames. And, in the long-term, rebuilding Snider in the minors is the better course of action. If he's not starting, Snider shouldn't be on the big club. At least Davis serves a purpose as a bench player, as he's an excellent option for pinch running late in close games.

I don't know that "Rebuilding" a baseball player is a definite enough course of action that we can say it's better than giving a guy major league at-bats in the hopes that he adjusts under the tutelage of a MLB hitting coach. Either way, it definitely seems that the string on Snider is shorter than it is for others. Snider got what, 100 at-bats? Davis has 300 this year. Aaron Hill's at 347 AB's with a OPS 30 points lower than Snider and they keep dragging his corpse out there.

I just think they should show slightly more patience with Snider.

Yeah, there should definitely be other players getting the yank before Snider. He's proved he can hit minor league pitching. Keep him in the bigs and teach him how to make the adjustments to the big league pitchers.

Comes a time when you sink or swim. I'd give Snider the chance at least.

 

[maplesyrup]

I just think they should show slightly more patience with Snider.

That's where I'm at (right or wrong.) I just find the whole situation weird. - 50% of it being the team's handling of Snider and the other half being Snider himself.

 

[bustaheims]

Yeah, there should definitely be other players getting the yank before Snider. He's proved he can hit minor league pitching. Keep him in the bigs and teach him how to make the adjustments to the big league pitchers.

Comes a time when you sink or swim. I'd give Snider the chance at least.

Except that he hasn't been making adjustments to big league pitchers. In fact, it's quite the opposite - once he starts to struggle, he falls back into the patterns that allow him to be successful in the minors but are easily and frequently exploited in the majors while showing little to no signs of being able to turn it around. I have to believe that they've tried to work with him as much as possible at the MLB level with MLB coaches, and, well, we've all seen the results - nothing has changed for the better. From the looks of things, either he can't learn at the MLB level or he won't learn at the MLB level. I mean, he's had 200 plate appearances this season, roughly the equivalent of 1/3 of what the average MLB player will get - it's not like he's only been given a week or two. Since he came back from the minors, he's actually putting the ball in play less than he did before he went down. I mean, at this point, I'd really be hard-pressed to say he's learned anything this season at any level, and he's just not producing anywhere close to enough to justify keeping him in the line-up with the rate he's getting struck out.

Sure, there comes a time to see if a player will sink or swim, and, well, right now, Snider is sinking and sinking fast.

 

[Kin]

Except that he hasn't been making adjustments to big league pitchers. In fact, it's quite the opposite - once he starts to struggle, he falls back into the patterns that allow him to be successful in the minors but are easily and frequently exploited in the majors while showing little to no signs of being able to turn it around. I have to believe that they've tried to work with him as much as possible at the MLB level with MLB coaches, and, well, we've all seen the results - nothing has changed for the better. From the looks of things, either he can't learn at the MLB level or he won't learn at the MLB level. I mean, he's had 200 plate appearances this season, roughly the equivalent of 1/3 of what the average MLB player will get - it's not like he's only been given a week or two. Since he came back from the minors, he's actually putting the ball in play less than he did before he went down. I mean, at this point, I'd really be hard-pressed to say he's learned anything this season at any level, and he's just not producing anywhere close to enough to justify keeping him in the line-up with the rate he's getting struck out.

Sure, there comes a time to see if a player will sink or swim, and, well, right now, Snider is sinking and sinking fast.

But he's already been in the minors where, apparently, they saw enough from him to call him back up. 100 or so PA's since his call-up isn't really a fair stretch to evaluate him.

Again, even 200 PA's isn't much. But to bench him again after half that strikes me as really short-sighted to be that impatient with the good prospect as opposed to other people. He had a .760 OPS in July after a .540 in April. That's not progress?  Let's be fair. You're advocating they send him down based on two bad weeks. His July was actually pretty good.

 

[bustaheims]

I don't know that "Rebuilding" a baseball player is a definite enough course of action that we can say it's better than giving a guy major league at-bats in the hopes that he adjusts under the tutelage of a MLB hitting coach. Either way, it definitely seems that the string on Snider is shorter than it is for others. Snider got what, 100 at-bats? Davis has 300 this year. Aaron Hill's at 347 AB's with a OPS 30 points lower than Snider and they keep dragging his corpse out there.

I just think they should show slightly more patience with Snider.

Of course rebuilding a player's approach is no sure thing, but, without trying it, I'm not sure Snider is on path to become much more than a AAAA player/backup outfielder, and, I think you'd agree that with Snider's potential, that would be a pretty significant disappointment. I'm not sure how much more patient you expect the team to be - they've given him a number of opportunities over the last few seasons to show that he deserves a full time spot on an MLB roster, and he's failed to grasp it every time. Not only has he not really improved, a pretty convincing argument can be made that he's actually regressed. And, if we're being honest, a big part of the reason Davis has seen so much playing time is because A) the choices the team had in CF were him and Patterson and B) Snider has been a disappointment. Had he grabbed a hold of a starting spot earlier in the season, Davis would have been on the bench in May. Hill has only seen so much time because the Jays don't really have a better option at 2B right now that's MLB ready - 2B is the biggest hole in the organization right now.

I mean, look, Snider is only 23, he's still young and there's still time for him to learn, but, why keep him in an environment where not only is he not learning, but one where continued struggles could very easily cause lasting damage to his development as a major league player. In all honesty, as much as I like Snider as a prospect and as much as I hate giving up on young players with so much potential, it's looking more and more like this could be a situation where parting ways could be in the best interests of everyone involved. Whether you want to blame the organization or the player is up to you - obviously, I'm putting the onus on the player, because, well, I can see what he's done much more clearly than I can see what the team has been trying to do with him away from the cameras.

 

[bustaheims]

Again, even 200 PA's isn't much. But to bench him again after half that strikes me as really short-sighted to be that impatient with the good prospect as opposed to other people. He had a .760 OPS in July after a .540 in April. That's not progress?  Let's be fair. You're advocating they send him down based on two bad weeks. His July was actually pretty good.

If I'm advocating sending him down based on 2 bad weeks, you're calling his July "pretty good" based on two good weeks, so . . .

 

[Kin]

If I'm advocating sending him down based on 2 bad weeks, you're calling his July "pretty good" based on two good weeks, so . . .

No, I'm saying a .760 OPS, while nothing to write home about, is pretty good. That was his total for the month. It's especially pretty good considering the April he had.

Snider has always started slowly and progressed. That's what his July indicates, two weeks of a slump aside. I definitely think it's worth giving him at least another month to see if it's an aberration.

I'm fine with reducing his playing time, limiting his AB's against lefties and so on but to try and pass off the month he just had as not showing progress seems kind of nutty to me.

 

[bustaheims]

No, I'm saying a .760 OPS, while nothing to write home about, is pretty good. That was his total for the month. It's especially pretty good considering the April he had.

Snider has always started slowly and progressed. That's what his July indicates, two weeks of a slump aside. I definitely think it's worth giving him at least another month to see if it's an aberration.

I'm fine with reducing his playing time, limiting his AB's against lefties and so on but to try and pass off the month he just had as not showing progress seems kind of nutty to me.

Well, sure, but I'm not just looking at the stats - I'm looking at the way he actually approaches at bats, the way he swings, the type of contact he makes, etc. and, in these areas, things have slowly been getting worse and worse since he started struggling - to the point where he doesn't look any different than the Snider we saw struggle mightily in April and through large stretches of last season as well. His mechanics are flawed, and they're getting worse the longer he's been up with the big club - that's the real issue here, and it's one that he hasn't shown an ability to really turn around while that the big league level.

 

[Kin]

I mean, look, Snider is only 23, he's still young and there's still time for him to learn, but, why keep him in an environment where not only is he not learning, but one where continued struggles could very easily cause lasting damage to his development as a major league player.

Well, two reasons. First of all is that you could just as easily impede his development by jerking him around based on a couple of bad weeks. Secondly, they don't have anyone better to replace him with. Thames is not bad but he's regressing a little too and a worse defensive outfielder than Snider. Davis shouldn't be getting any at-bats.

 

[Kin]

Well, sure, but I'm not just looking at the stats - I'm looking at the way he actually approaches at bats, the way he swings, the type of contact he makes, etc. and, in these areas, things have slowly been getting worse and worse since he started struggling - to the point where he doesn't look any different than the Snider we saw struggle mightily in April and through large stretches of last season as well. His mechanics are flawed, and they're getting worse the longer he's been up with the big club - that's the real issue here, and it's one that he hasn't shown an ability to really turn around while that the big league level.

When a player slumps his contact, swings and approach are going to look flawed. That's just the nature of what a slump entails. Saying that he's unable to adjust or isn't learning is fine and dandy if you've given him time to do either of those things but a two week slump really isn't enough time to say with any sort of conclusive evidence that he can't adjust or can't learn. Two week slumps happen to good ball players too. He should at least be given the time to see if that's it or if he should be protected against tough lefties.

If there was something concrete to be gained by demoting him, yeah, sure. But there isn't so I don't see a benefit to panic and send down a guy because of a bad stretch.

 

[bustaheims]

Well, two reasons. First of all is that you could just as easily impede his development by jerking him around based on a couple of bad weeks. Secondly, they don't have anyone better to replace him with. Thames is not bad but he's regressing a little too and a worse defensive outfielder than Snider. Davis shouldn't be getting any at-bats.

Well, with Lawrie up starting at 3B, Bautista moves back into the outfield and Thames moves to LF. Davis stays on the bench. And, as for Thames being a worse defensive player, he's an even dWAR player this season, whereas Snider is -0.6, and Thames has better range factor numbers as well, so, the numbers don't support your assertion there.