2017-18 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion

[herman]

Hyman and Brown are in the same bucket of players in my mind: super useful utility complements on the wings. They do slightly different things but the same way (you see them, they be work work work work work work). Neither will drive play themselves in transition, but they will extend your opportunities with their forecheck, positioning, and sheer effort. Brown uses the stick more, while Hyman is all about bashing in and parking that booty on the other guy's gloves.

The reasons Hyman gets the nod over Brown with Matthews - Nylander:
- Brown is a better scorer (because he shoots more) and other lines need the scoring more
- Hyman is 20 lbs thicker

 

[Coco-puffs]

CtB.  I think Brown would do better than Hyman on his off wing.  Hyman really struggles to find his linemates when he drives wide with the puck.  Head down and zero vision way too often.  I don't see how Brown couldn't do better. 

However, I really like the chemistry of that top line right now.  If anything, I'd really like to see Nylander and Hyman switch just to see if Hyman could be more effective on the right side.  Other than the occasional board battles in his own zone, I don't think Nylander would have any issue playing his off-wing while I think Hyman would be more effective.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

However, I really like the chemistry of that top line right now.  If anything, I'd really like to see Nylander and Hyman switch just to see if Hyman could be more effective on the right side.  Other than the occasional board battles in his own zone, I don't think Nylander would have any issue playing his off-wing while I think Hyman would be more effective.

Yeah, that wouldn't be a bad idea. It's definitely possible that some of Hyman's struggles offensively could be attributed to him playing his off-wing.

 

[Frank E]

Mike Kelly highlighting a few plays that make Connor Brown the top offensive zone stick check'er (by whatever his and his company's criteria for that is):

I get why Babcock likes Hyman on that top line but most of what he does in terms of board work Brown can do just as well, and he has a much better scoring touch. Both are right-handed shots so there's no difference there. Brown might not have as much experience on the left side but I don't think Hyman did either when he first went there. You can't tell me a player as smart as Brown wouldn't be able to figure things out on his off-wing.

Interestingly, each of the plays on the video shows that Brown is actually working the left side!

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

I might be off, but in modern hockey systems, isn't the notion of right and left winger pretty antiquated outside of faceoffs?

It's all F1, F2 and F3 and constantly fluid while in play.

 

[Coco-puffs]

However, I really like the chemistry of that top line right now.  If anything, I'd really like to see Nylander and Hyman switch just to see if Hyman could be more effective on the right side.  Other than the occasional board battles in his own zone, I don't think Nylander would have any issue playing his off-wing while I think Hyman would be more effective.

Yeah, that wouldn't be a bad idea. It's definitely possible that some of Hyman's struggles offensively could be attributed to him playing his off-wing.

Oh yeah for sure.  I don't think switching sides will work miracles for him but I do think it will help- especially with making passes when he drives the net.  Right now, on his off-side he just puts his head down and bulls to the net.  Maybe that won't change, but being on your strong side makes it easier to make a quick pass. 

If he's going to stay on his off-side, he needs to learn to start driving wide, get his dman to turn, then stop up and curl at the hashmarks so he can make a pass to whomever is coming on the next wave.  He's too predictable right now, always just driving the net with the puck.

 

[ZBBM]

However, I really like the chemistry of that top line right now.  If anything, I'd really like to see Nylander and Hyman switch just to see if Hyman could be more effective on the right side.  Other than the occasional board battles in his own zone, I don't think Nylander would have any issue playing his off-wing while I think Hyman would be more effective.

Yeah, that wouldn't be a bad idea. It's definitely possible that some of Hyman's struggles offensively could be attributed to him playing his off-wing.

Oh yeah for sure.  I don't think switching sides will work miracles for him but I do think it will help- especially with making passes when he drives the net.  Right now, on his off-side he just puts his head down and bulls to the net.  Maybe that won't change, but being on your strong side makes it easier to make a quick pass. 

If he's going to stay on his off-side, he needs to learn to start driving wide, get his dman to turn, then stop up and curl at the hashmarks so he can make a pass to whomever is coming on the next wave.  He's too predictable right now, always just driving the net with the puck.

This is good thinking, and probably worth trying, but to me a higher priority would be to drop Leo to the 4th line and find somebody to play with Kadri and Kapanen.  Marner?

 

[herman]

I might be off, but in modern hockey systems, isn't the notion of right and left winger pretty antiquated outside of faceoffs?

It's all F1, F2 and F3 and constantly fluid while in play.

This.

Another aspect of Hyman's game that is slightly overlooked because it doesn't show up on the spreadsheets: he's the guy in the crease taking out one defender and obstructing about 40% of a goaltender's mobility/vision.

Matthews' goal against San Jose:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSzm03QRc7M

Shows off Nylander as LW, which works*, but will limit his passing capabilities as he circles behind the net (and I'd rather limit Hyman's offense for the sake of Nylander getting more options), as well as Hyman's Snorlax impression in front of Jones. So he doesn't really touch the puck, but he screens the initial shot to generate the rebound, and ties up Justin Braun by taking away his ability to use his stick to clear the puck, and Matthews swoops by with a little kick up play on the loose puck to snap it home.

* I'd put Nylander on LW if he was the designated shooter on the line (i.e. if there was another distributor). On a line with Matthews though, we're better off with Nylander's righty shot coming up the right wing to give Matthews someone to transition up the ice with more easily. It's also why I want to see Marner with Kadri (or Matthews) because I think he's more effective with an LC.

 

[hockeyfan1]

Like I mentioned in the GDT, something in Andersen's game was definitely off.
https://theathletic.com/142816/2017/10/31/frederik-andersens-latest-techincal-struggle-and-how-he-can-fix-it/

Good news: it's easily fixable.

As long as he continues to have trouble with the LD - MD shots, that will hamper him.  Though he's best with the HD shots, the rest is definitely fixable.  The charts will tell the tale.

 

[herman]

Like I mentioned in the GDT, something in Andersen's game was definitely off.
https://theathletic.com/142816/2017/10/31/frederik-andersens-latest-techincal-struggle-and-how-he-can-fix-it/

Good news: it's easily fixable.

As long as he continues to have trouble with the LD - MD shots, that will hamper him.  Though he's best with the HD shots, the rest is definitely fixable.  The charts will tell the tale.

I think he's already sorted it out, actually.

 

[sickbeast]

Something's gotta give here.  I am now genuinely concerned about this team.  They started off great but the league adjusted to them and they have failed to come up with a new game plan.  Sadly, what may happen is that management will trade away some players to try and shake things up.  Maybe JVR for some defense, or even Mitch Marner as some have speculated.  I hope the Leafs can turn things around quickly because I like the team as it is.  They are too good of a team to keep losing like this.

 

[ZBBM]

Something's gotta give here.  I am now genuinely concerned about this team.  They started off great but the league adjusted to them and they have failed to come up with a new game plan.  Sadly, what may happen is that management will trade away some players to try and shake things up.  Maybe JVR for some defense, or even Mitch Marner as some have speculated.  I hope the Leafs can turn things around quickly because I like the team as it is.  They are too good of a team to keep losing like this.

I like their forwards, in general.  The defense is full of holes from top to bottom, and Freddie is a good, but not great, netminder so he is not going to Price them out of their defensive shortcomings.

As a couple of people said post-game, it's time for us to recalibrate our expectations.  That talk about them being SC favorites was pure giddiness.  The team is being exposed, and unless and until they considerably upgrade the defensemen they can't be counted as contenders.  That will not happen this year, and it may take several, if it happens at all.  Some of the defensive problems of the forwards will be solved by subtraction.

 

[disco]

https://twitter.com/ThatsKappy/status/927223284030234625

They've been playing some great teams and the Leafs are a good team, not elite. They're trying, but they're coming up short. Their next ten are against several clubs I would say below them, time to make up some ground. Arizona, Boston, Vegas, Carolina, Montreal and Florida are games they can definitely be competitive in. If you look at the League right now there's a lot of .500 teams, a few elite and a few basement dwellers. It's just a parity league now.

Don't worry, this is really only year two of these young Leafs, last year with all the phenomenal rookie years that was really year one. It takes time to build a winner. A lot of excellent pieces here.

 

[sickbeast]

Something's gotta give here.  I am now genuinely concerned about this team.  They started off great but the league adjusted to them and they have failed to come up with a new game plan.  Sadly, what may happen is that management will trade away some players to try and shake things up.  Maybe JVR for some defense, or even Mitch Marner as some have speculated.  I hope the Leafs can turn things around quickly because I like the team as it is.  They are too good of a team to keep losing like this.

I like their forwards, in general.  The defense is full of holes from top to bottom, and Freddie is a good, but not great, netminder so he is not going to Price them out of their defensive shortcomings.

As a couple of people said post-game, it's time for us to recalibrate our expectations.  That talk about them being SC favorites was pure giddiness.  The team is being exposed, and unless and until they considerably upgrade the defensemen they can't be counted as contenders.  That will not happen this year, and it may take several, if it happens at all.  Some of the defensive problems of the forwards will be solved by subtraction.

Any chance we'll see Liljegren called up before the end of the season?  He's playing extremely well for the Marlies right now.

 

[ZBBM]

Something's gotta give here.  I am now genuinely concerned about this team.  They started off great but the league adjusted to them and they have failed to come up with a new game plan.  Sadly, what may happen is that management will trade away some players to try and shake things up.  Maybe JVR for some defense, or even Mitch Marner as some have speculated.  I hope the Leafs can turn things around quickly because I like the team as it is.  They are too good of a team to keep losing like this.

I like their forwards, in general.  The defense is full of holes from top to bottom, and Freddie is a good, but not great, netminder so he is not going to Price them out of their defensive shortcomings.

As a couple of people said post-game, it's time for us to recalibrate our expectations.  That talk about them being SC favorites was pure giddiness.  The team is being exposed, and unless and until they considerably upgrade the defensemen they can't be counted as contenders.  That will not happen this year, and it may take several, if it happens at all.  Some of the defensive problems of the forwards will be solved by subtraction.

Any chance we'll see Liljegren called up before the end of the season?  He's playing extremely well for the Marlies right now.

It's possible but I doubt it.  He really needs a whole season as a pro in NA, if for nothing else than to learn to deal with the mid- and late-season grind.

 

[Zee]

People are freaking out but I think it's fine. The team wasn't as good as that 7-2 start, but they're also not as bad as this recent 1-5 stretch either.  I think they turn it around this week.

 

[AvroArrow]

People are freaking out but I think it's fine. The team wasn't as good as that 7-2 start, but they're also not as bad as this recent 1-5 stretch either.  I think they turn it around this week.

Nobody is freaking out.  Speaking for myself, I'm frustrated that the same problems exist, that have existed for years.  Last year, they were masked by Andersen.  Now, they're obvious again because Andersen isn't playing nearly as good.

 

[skrackle]

People are freaking out but I think it's fine. The team wasn't as good as that 7-2 start, but they're also not as bad as this recent 1-5 stretch either.  I think they turn it around this week.

Nobody is freaking out.  Speaking for myself, I'm frustrated that the same problems exist, that have existed for years.  Last year, they were masked by Andersen.  Now, they're obvious again because Andersen isn't playing nearly as good.

I share your frustration to an extent. The last Leaf team that I recall playing consistently good defense was the early Pat Burns era team. The fact that the current team doesn't seem to have a clue lately is mitigated by their youth. The promise of the elite talent the Leafs finally have keeps me interested while they work the bugs out.

I think that it's going to take, I don't know, maybe two more seasons if everything goes well, for the Leafs to develop real structure in their game. It's partly dependent on further successful shaping of the roster because it's not the right mix as it stands.

I don't have much patience for any veterans who can't, don't or won't buy in. I hope they are shown the door.

 

[sickbeast]

People are freaking out but I think it's fine. The team wasn't as good as that 7-2 start, but they're also not as bad as this recent 1-5 stretch either.  I think they turn it around this week.

Nobody is freaking out.  Speaking for myself, I'm frustrated that the same problems exist, that have existed for years.  Last year, they were masked by Andersen.  Now, they're obvious again because Andersen isn't playing nearly as good.

I'm starting to freak out actually. 

 

[hockeyfan1]

People are freaking out but I think it's fine. The team wasn't as good as that 7-2 start, but they're also not as bad as this recent 1-5 stretch either.  I think they turn it around this week.

Nobody is freaking out.  Speaking for myself, I'm frustrated that the same problems exist, that have existed for years.  Last year, they were masked by Andersen.  Now, they're obvious again because Andersen isn't playing nearly as good.

I don't expect Andersen to stand up on his head this year for all of the remaining games in the season.  He did it last year, and clearly even if he would do so again now, it still won't guarantee a turnaround of the Leafs ship.  True that Andersen seems less consistent somewhat, but it's also true that the Leafs defence is in some ways worse than last season.

I agree with Zee in that the Leafs have a chance to back to a winning stance beginning this week.  None of this will negate what ails this team but at least a bit of positivity in the win column will do well for them...until further notice.