2017-18 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion

[CarltonTheBear]

If you're gonna put Nylander on the 4th line with Martin, at least let him play centre and give him Leivo on the other wing.

 

[Frank E]

Matthews, of course, gets the Sundin treatment.

At least with Sundin it was understandable because there legit wasn't any other options. Matthews is playing with arguably the 5th and 6th best wingers on the team here.

Who would you rather see him play with on the RHS?

It's not like Brown can't find the net.  I'm not sure it's a downgrade, the way Nylander has been handling the puck lately.

Hopefully, Nylander responds the way Marner did...or, kind of did.

I think Polak plays because it's Calgary, and Calgary is going to Calgary...and Martin plays for the same reason, for sure.

I think you'll see Martin starting to sit more and more, but not against teams like Calgary...or Edmonton...maybe against Vancouver.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Who would you rather see him play with on the RHS?

It's not like Brown can't find the net.  I'm not sure it's a downgrade, the way Nylander has been handling the puck lately.

I just think that Brown and Hyman serve the same sort of purpose on that top line (albeit yes Brown can score a little better and Hyman has the better size). I'd be fine with Brown playing with Matthews if he had Marleau or even JVR on the other side. I'm fine with Hyman playing with Matthews if he has Nylander or Marner on the other side. I'm just not crazy about them both being there.

 

[L K]

Who would you rather see him play with on the RHS?

It's not like Brown can't find the net.  I'm not sure it's a downgrade, the way Nylander has been handling the puck lately.

I just think that Brown and Hyman serve the same sort of purpose on that top line (albeit yes Brown can score a little better and Hyman has the better size). I'd be fine with Brown playing with Matthews if he had Marleau or even JVR on the other side. I'm fine with Hyman playing with Matthews if he has Nylander or Marner on the other side. I'm just not crazy about them both being there.

But Hoglund and Renberg put up 15-25 goals.

 

[Strangelove]

Babcock has tried just about any random combination it's possible to think of, but somehow Hymen must stay with Matthews. Ditto for Komarov and Kadri.

We can look forward to another slow start until midway through the second, when Babcock once again figures out that doggedly matching lines rather than letting the best players play more minutes is probably not the best strategy.

 

[rdowdall]

Who would you rather see him play with on the RHS?

It's not like Brown can't find the net.  I'm not sure it's a downgrade, the way Nylander has been handling the puck lately.

I just think that Brown and Hyman serve the same sort of purpose on that top line (albeit yes Brown can score a little better and Hyman has the better size). I'd be fine with Brown playing with Matthews if he had Marleau or even JVR on the other side. I'm fine with Hyman playing with Matthews if he has Nylander or Marner on the other side. I'm just not crazy about them both being there.

But Hoglund and Renberg put up 15-25 goals.

I'm not sure who it was, but didn't someone have this as their tagline for a while:

Sundin goes to the doctor and says my back really hurts. 
Doctor responds no wonder you've been carrying Jonas Hoglund around on it for years.

 

[herman]

I just think that Brown and Hyman serve the same sort of purpose on that top line (albeit yes Brown can score a little better and Hyman has the better size). I'd be fine with Brown playing with Matthews if he had Marleau or even JVR on the other side. I'm fine with Hyman playing with Matthews if he has Nylander or Marner on the other side. I'm just not crazy about them both being there.

I see Brown and Hyman playing quite differently. Their deficiencies and their standout feature are both very similar: can't play the puck for very long, and works harder than everybody; but their styles are quite different.

Hyman is a board battler and net-front pick/screen and generally doesn't need to touch the puck. Brown is an opportunistic shooter, always angling for the right position to capitalize on a pass/rebound in the slot and generally only needs to touch the puck once.

 

[Frank E]

I just think that Brown and Hyman serve the same sort of purpose on that top line (albeit yes Brown can score a little better and Hyman has the better size). I'd be fine with Brown playing with Matthews if he had Marleau or even JVR on the other side. I'm fine with Hyman playing with Matthews if he has Nylander or Marner on the other side. I'm just not crazy about them both being there.

I see Brown and Hyman playing quite differently. Their deficiencies and their standout feature are both very similar: can't play the puck for very long, and works harder than everybody; but their styles are quite different.

Hyman is a board battler and net-front pick/screen and generally doesn't need to touch the puck. Brown is an opportunistic shooter, always angling for the right position to capitalize on a pass/rebound in the slot and generally only needs to touch the puck once.

I can get with this, somewhat...I think Hyman is a physical board battler/puck retrieval, and a net front screener.  Brown uses his stick to retrieve pucks, and has a nice scoring and passing touch.  Brown has much better offensive and defensive instincts/positioning than does Hyman, but Hyman is quicker and more physical.

Neither are puck carriers, I agree.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I just think that Brown and Hyman serve the same sort of purpose on that top line (albeit yes Brown can score a little better and Hyman has the better size).

I see Brown and Hyman playing quite differently. Their deficiencies and their standout feature are both very similar: can't play the puck for very long, and works harder than everybody; but their styles are quite different.

Hyman is a board battler and net-front pick/screen and generally doesn't need to touch the puck. Brown is an opportunistic shooter, always angling for the right position to capitalize on a pass/rebound in the slot and generally only needs to touch the puck once.

Yeah, I mean I really feel like we basically said the same thing here .

Either way, they're both passengers on a line, albeit effective passengers I think. Or as Ryan Stimson wrote when he discussed playing styles last season, they're both "dependents". And you generally don't want two dependents on the same line.

 

[Frank E]

I just think that Brown and Hyman serve the same sort of purpose on that top line (albeit yes Brown can score a little better and Hyman has the better size).

I see Brown and Hyman playing quite differently. Their deficiencies and their standout feature are both very similar: can't play the puck for very long, and works harder than everybody; but their styles are quite different.

Hyman is a board battler and net-front pick/screen and generally doesn't need to touch the puck. Brown is an opportunistic shooter, always angling for the right position to capitalize on a pass/rebound in the slot and generally only needs to touch the puck once.

Yeah, I mean I really feel like we basically said the same thing here .

Either way, they're both passengers on a line, albeit effective passengers I think. Or as Ryan Stimson wrote when he discussed playing styles last season, they're both "dependents". And you generally don't want two dependents on the same line.

Is that right?  2 "playmakers" and 1 dependent...or do they take the defensemen into account?

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Either way, they're both passengers on a line, albeit effective passengers I think. Or as Ryan Stimson wrote when he discussed playing styles last season, they're both "dependents". And you generally don't want two dependents on the same line.

Is that right?  2 "playmakers" and 1 dependent...or do they take the defensemen into account?

Talking about forwards only. This was the piece was I was referencing: https://hockey-graphs.com/2017/04/04/identifying-player-types-with-clustering/

And this is the cheat sheet:

 

[Frank E]

Either way, they're both passengers on a line, albeit effective passengers I think. Or as Ryan Stimson wrote when he discussed playing styles last season, they're both "dependents". And you generally don't want two dependents on the same line.

Is that right?  2 "playmakers" and 1 dependent...or do they take the defensemen into account?

Talking about forwards only. This was the piece was I was referencing: https://hockey-graphs.com/2017/04/04/identifying-player-types-with-clustering/

Thanks C...now herman has to get to work determining which category each Leaf fits into, according to the hockey-graphs criteria.

Go.

 

[herman]

Either way, they're both passengers on a line, albeit effective passengers I think. Or as Ryan Stimson wrote when he discussed playing styles last season, they're both "dependents". And you generally don't want two dependents on the same line.

Is that right?  2 "playmakers" and 1 dependent...or do they take the defensemen into account?

Talking about forwards only. This was the piece was I was referencing: https://hockey-graphs.com/2017/04/04/identifying-player-types-with-clustering/

Thanks C...now herman has to get to work determining which category each Leaf fits into, according to the hockey-graphs criteria.

Go.

I already posted this in the offseason, so I'm pretty aware of it It's literally the first post of this thread. I think there are nuances to the clusters (e.g. offensive-dependent, defensive-playmaker, etc.).

I think that data was also not 100% complete either. I'm trying to account for some growth with the younger players.

There's also this post if you want to see the breakdown of the components that led to that clustering.

https://twitter.com/ChartingHockey/status/882944718933544965

 

[Frank E]

Thanks herman, that's interesting.

It would be interesting to see what it looks like updated.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Is Leivo a shooter or dependent?

It'd be nice to see Kapanen get a longer look in either a top 9 role or in a functioning 4th line aka minus Martin and Moore.

Leivo - Bozak - Kapanen feels like a line that would murder other 4th lines.

Hyman - God - Nylander
Komarov - Kadri - Brown (They looked good last year, despite having two dependents.)
Jvr - Marleau - Marner
Leivo - Bozak - Kapanen

 

[Frank E]

Is Leivo a shooter or dependent?

Who knows!

 

[herman]

https://theathletic.com/168458/2017/11/28/bourne-defensemen-are-finding-a-way-around-shot-blocking-layers-a-look-at-which-teams-do-it-best/

This is Morgan Rielly's jam.

These are 2017-18 numbers:

Leafs defenders rarely shoot to score directly. Just like last year, they form a blue line wall to play the cycle off of (low-high) with defenders swapping in to continue the play or pumping the puck down to the endboards, or rimming it to the weakside forward to start a fresh scramble. When they do shoot, it's because the defense left the high slot open.

 

[AvroArrow]

Hyman - God - Nylander
Komarov - Kadri - Brown
Jvr - Marleau - Marner
Leivo - Bozak - Kapanen

Why can't this just be the lineup?  It's so much better than the usual, despite but a few changes.

 

[herman]

The words I keep coming back to when I see the bottom of our lineup looking so dour, are what Jack Han mentioned re: Hunlak: when you make a tea, you put the bag in there for a time, and then you throw it away. The program the Leafs are putting together has an eye for beyond the current game, and even the current season.

While I, and many fans here and on the rest of the internet, believe Matthews, Nylander, Marner, et al. are ready for prime time, it looks like the Leafs are building their core an insulation team of 'dependable' veteran depth mentors with varying-degrees-of-skill (Marleau, Hainsey, Moore, Martin, Polak), so that our skilled guys on the Leafs and Marlies are also our hardest working guys night in and night out (see Crosby, Tavares vs Seguin, Spezza).

The way they're being pressed to play right now is like playoff training, trying to make them play with no space and creating in spite of that. Babcock still gives them the third period to freewheel when we're chasing -- it certainly seems more effective, but it's probably hard to keep up for the whole season if it's 3 periods of back and forth a game. Otherwise, it's playoff mode line matching and tight structured checking first. That's the playstyle we actually need to develop as a go-to option as we already know the kids can really fly. As we work through the lumps, I'm assuming we'll start generating chances 'the right way' and still have the Team North America way in the back pocket.

Where this leaves the likes of Carrick, Leivo, Soshnikov, Kapanen, is on the sidelines or the Marlies because the Core is focused on building their team game first, before getting the new responsibility to carrying the new 'kids' (they're all older than Marner though). We saw it with Rielly, Kadri, and now Dermott on the Marlies. First year is sheltered confidence building; second year is finding out how big a millstone can you carry; and after that, go have fun.

Edit: grammar

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

The words I keep coming back to when I see the bottom of our lineup looking so dour, are what Jack Han mentioned re: Hunlak: when you make a tea, you put the bag in there for a time, and then you throw it away. The program the Leafs are putting together has an eye for beyond the current game, and even the current season.

While I, and many fans here and on the rest of the internet, believe Matthews, Nylander, Marner, et al. are ready for prime time, it looks like the Leafs are building their core and insulation team of 'dependable' veteran depth mentors with varying-degrees-of-skill (Marleau, Hainsey, Moore, Martin, Polak), so that our skilled guys on the Leafs and Marlies are also our hardest working guys night in and night out (see Crosby, Tavares vs Seguin, Spezza).

The way they're being pressed to play right now is like playoff training, trying to make them play with no space and creating in spite of that. Babcock still gives them the third period to freewheel when we're chasing -- it certainly seems more effective, but it's probably hard to keep up for the whole season if it's 3 periods of back and forth a game. Otherwise, it's playoff mode line matching and tight structured checking first. That's the playstyle we actually need to develop as a go-to option as we already know the kids can really fly. As we work through the lumps, I'm assuming we'll start generating chances 'the right way' and still have the Team North America way in the back pocket.

Where this leaves the likes of Carrick, Leivo, Soshnikov, Kapanen, is on the sidelines or the Marlies because the Core is focused on building their team game first, before getting the new responsibility to carrying the new 'kids' (they're all older than Marner though). We saw it with Rielly, Kadri, and now Dermott on the Marlies. First year is sheltered confidence building; second year is finding out how big a millstone can you carry; and after that, go have fun.

I hope you're right, great post.