2020-2021 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion

[CarltonTheBear]

While I think everything else being equal you would want to draft players who are going to be "large", we witnessed Burke blow first rounders on guys like Tyler Biggs.

This is something where you'd think our analytics department would earn their money though. Finding that unicorn big player who also has legitimate hockey potential in the draft. Maybe those players just genuinely haven't existed or weren't available in spots where the Leafs would be open to them, but at some point in time you would like to see them try to find that Parayko playing in the the AJTMHL or wherever those guys come from.

Again obviously finding those players are incredibly hard, but we're supposed to have the biggest and best resources at our disposal so if we're not finding those Parayko's you'd hope at least we get a Point eventually.

 

[Frank E]

While I think everything else being equal you would want to draft players who are going to be "large", we witnessed Burke blow first rounders on guys like Tyler Biggs.

This is something where you'd think our analytics department would earn their money though. Finding that unicorn big player who also has legitimate hockey potential in the draft. Maybe those players just genuinely haven't existed or weren't available in spots where the Leafs would be open to them, but at some point in time you would like to see them try to find that Parayko playing in the the AJTMHL or wherever those guys come from.

Again obviously finding those players are incredibly hard, but we're supposed to have the biggest and best resources at our disposal so if we're not finding those Parayko's you'd hope at least we get a Point eventually.

Yeah, if I'm MLSE ownership, I'm wondering why I've invested all this money and resources over the past 5+ years under Shanahan, and I still don't have a prospect base that's even close to being superior.

 

[herman]

Dubas has, historically, not really succeeded in putting together a well rounded team.

I think well rounded teams take time to manifest. The approach outlined was overcoming the significant skill deficit in the Toronto roster and pipeline (2014/15) and then layering on fixes for the holes. No GM since then has adequately plugged the defense issue, though Muzzin comes pretty close. Our core is getting tougher and more resilient as the years go by (Matthews vs Weber, and basically anybody at this point). Like you say further down, toughness is expensive on the market, and priority went to locking in guys who can do damage on the scoreboard, so there wasn't much cap left for adding off-puck pressure.

Benning in Vancouver and Lamoriello on the Island prioritized rounding out the young talent with expensive vets right away and now they're in a cap jam as everyone else expected.

The Leafs have since added Mikheyev and Barabanov who bring 200-ft pressure. Lots of options have opened up for depth signings on the cheap this season.

I think there's a definition of skill that Dubas and the like tend to use that dictates how they approach the draft and I think it ultimately hinders their thinking. You can call one thing skill and another "grit" or "physicality" or anything else but it still all boils down to whether or not a player is doing something that helps his team win a game. If the answer is yes, then it's all "skill". The distinction between one or the other is ultimately meaningless.

I think this is a great point in general re: what helps you win. The not meaningless distinction (at least to me) is what can be taught/developed after the fact? What are the Leafs equipped to layer onto their picks with a decent success rate? This past draft seemed to emphasize skill, but also players who don't always need the puck on their sticks to contribute meaningfully.

 

[herman]

I would like to see Dubas be more proactive/ballsy some time at the draft where instead of always playing the "we have 4/5 guys we view the same so we'll just slide down and grab another asset" card, and instead uses all the assets he's accumulated to move up.

This is only a personal preference and simply a notion as I don't know if he was in the sights of the team nor not knowing what the price would be, but for example, I would have loved to have seen him see Askarov falling out of the top 10 and pouncing (same could apply to Rossi and Perfetti slipping).  Instead it's always sliding back.  I get the more assets the better the chances, but sometimes you just after go after a guy. 

Again, that's just me and a gripe I have.

I think you have to weigh the opportunity costs to move up vs the player you're targeting. Jumping into the top 10-ish range is a huge spend in pipeline capital (or roster depth) but most drafts have a tier of 5-12, 7-17 being slightly different flavours of the same potential. I hate picking out of the middle because there's basically no chance for advantageous movement.

Dubas did eventually move up to jump on an underrated option at 137 (Dmitri Ovchinnikov) where the spend was basically nothing, but they got a swing at someone who can play all F positions in defensive or offensive modes, and likes to crash the net.

 

[herman]

Dubas didn't draft any of Marchment, Brazeau, or Holl.

My point was that useful size could be found outside the draft.

 

[Redleaf]

I would like to see Dubas be more proactive/ballsy some time at the draft where instead of always playing the "we have 4/5 guys we view the same so we'll just slide down and grab another asset" card, and instead uses all the assets he's accumulated to move up.

This is only a personal preference and simply a notion as I don't know if he was in the sights of the team nor not knowing what the price would be, but for example, I would have loved to have seen him see Askarov falling out of the top 10 and pouncing (same could apply to Rossi and Perfetti slipping).  Instead it's always sliding back.  I get the more assets the better the chances, but sometimes you just after go after a guy. 

Again, that's just me and a gripe I have.

It?s not just you Peter. I?m of the opinion that we?re at the stage of the game where the Leafs need to take more chances to try to secure options for the weaknesses on this club. Maybe we will all be surprised as to what Dubas can accomplish tomorrow but I have my doubts it will be significant enough of an improvement to see a significant enough of an improvement in our standings next season.

Edit: I think we?ve gone beyond the need for finding enough skill upfront on this team. My hope was if they did continue to accumulate more skill that we would somehow be able to make trades with those players to upgrade the defence, our size and our grit. But so far that hasn?t happened.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

This is only a personal preference and simply a notion as I don't know if he was in the sights of the team nor not knowing what the price would be, but for example, I would have loved to have seen him see Askarov falling out of the top 10 and pouncing (same could apply to Rossi and Perfetti slipping).  Instead it's always sliding back.  I get the more assets the better the chances, but sometimes you just after go after a guy.

I mean I get the sentiment but there's no way those teams were dropping back (and missing out on Askarov/Rossi/Perfetti). Just no way.

 

[herman]

I would like to see Dubas be more proactive/ballsy some time at the draft where instead of always playing the "we have 4/5 guys we view the same so we'll just slide down and grab another asset" card, and instead uses all the assets he's accumulated to move up.

This is only a personal preference and simply a notion as I don't know if he was in the sights of the team nor not knowing what the price would be, but for example, I would have loved to have seen him see Askarov falling out of the top 10 and pouncing (same could apply to Rossi and Perfetti slipping).  Instead it's always sliding back.  I get the more assets the better the chances, but sometimes you just after go after a guy. 

Again, that's just me and a gripe I have.

It?s not just you Peter. I?m of the opinion that we?re at the stage of the game where the Leafs need to take more chances to try to secure options for the weaknesses on this club. Maybe we will all be surprised as to what Dubas can accomplish tomorrow but I have my doubts it will be significant enough of an improvement to see a significant enough of an improvement in our standings next season.

Which draft pick yesterday or the day before would've helped the Leafs this season?

 

[Redleaf]

I would like to see Dubas be more proactive/ballsy some time at the draft where instead of always playing the "we have 4/5 guys we view the same so we'll just slide down and grab another asset" card, and instead uses all the assets he's accumulated to move up.

This is only a personal preference and simply a notion as I don't know if he was in the sights of the team nor not knowing what the price would be, but for example, I would have loved to have seen him see Askarov falling out of the top 10 and pouncing (same could apply to Rossi and Perfetti slipping).  Instead it's always sliding back.  I get the more assets the better the chances, but sometimes you just after go after a guy. 

Again, that's just me and a gripe I have.

It?s not just you Peter. I?m of the opinion that we?re at the stage of the game where the Leafs need to take more chances to try to secure options for the weaknesses on this club. Maybe we will all be surprised as to what Dubas can accomplish tomorrow but I have my doubts it will be significant enough of an improvement to see a significant enough of an improvement in our standings next season.

Which draft pick yesterday or the day before would've helped the Leafs this season?

I realize like most people: it?s not all about next season. It?s about the timeframe of our young players and what this team should ultimately strive for which is more balance across-the-board

 

[Frank E]

Dubas didn't draft any of Marchment, Brazeau, or Holl.

My point was that useful size could be found outside the draft.

I take issue with your definition of useful.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Dubas didn't draft any of Marchment, Brazeau, or Holl.

My point was that useful size could be found outside the draft.

I take issue with your definition of useful.

$0.25mil more and I could have deleted this post. Damn.

 

[Peter D.]

I mean I get the sentiment but there's no way those teams were dropping back (and missing out on Askarov/Rossi/Perfetti). Just no way.

That's fair and understood.  I was just using it as a general notion amongst the drafts under Dubas's watch.  Seems like it is a common theme year over year.  With where the team is at, and the talent it possesses, I'd like to see a bit more of an aggressive approach.  That's all.

And yeah, I'd have loved for Dubas to have gone all out to try and have the chance to draft Askarov.  I've thought for years the team has needed to stock the pipeline by drafting the goalie of the future.  (Yes, I know it's a simplistic view without offering just what the price would be to have done so)

 

[Phileas Fogg]

I mean I get the sentiment but there's no way those teams were dropping back (and missing out on Askarov/Rossi/Perfetti). Just no way.

That's fair and understood.  I was just using it as a general notion amongst the drafts under Dubas's watch.  Seems like it is a common theme year over year.  With where the team is at, and the talent it possesses, I'd like to see a bit more of an aggressive approach.  That's all.

And yeah, I'd have loved for Dubas to have gone all out to try and have the chance to draft Askarov.  I've thought for years the team has needed to stock the pipeline by drafting the goalie of the future.  (Yes, I know it's a simplistic view without offering just what the price would be to have done so)

In defense of Dubas, he seems to be taking equal heat on not moving the #15 pick to improve the current team, so if he's also getting heat on not going all in on the draft (which would no doubt require giving up current on-ice talent), the poor guy really is in a no win situation.

 

[Guilt Trip]

I mean I get the sentiment but there's no way those teams were dropping back (and missing out on Askarov/Rossi/Perfetti). Just no way.

That's fair and understood.  I was just using it as a general notion amongst the drafts under Dubas's watch.  Seems like it is a common theme year over year.  With where the team is at, and the talent it possesses, I'd like to see a bit more of an aggressive approach.  That's all.

And yeah, I'd have loved for Dubas to have gone all out to try and have the chance to draft Askarov.  I've thought for years the team has needed to stock the pipeline by drafting the goalie of the future.  (Yes, I know it's a simplistic view without offering just what the price would be to have done so)

In defense of Dubas, he seems to be taking equal heat on not moving the #15 pick to improve the current team, so if he's also getting heat on not going all in on the draft (which would no doubt require giving up current on-ice talent), the poor guy really is in a no win situation.

I will wait and see how these kids turn out before I say Dubas is terrible. I read yesterday that  Hunter drafted 7, 6'3" or above D men from 15-17 and not one of them is expected to play an NHL game.

 

[Highlander]

Imagine Hunter as our GM,  dinosaur land would have continued. Even Rasanen who was our biggest hope at #2 is such a fringe prospect that they haven't even said he should be in the Marlies development program.  Let's hope he is a really late bloomer, like a very big Holl.

 

[Guilt Trip]

Imagine Hunter as our GM,  dinosaur land would have continued. Even Rasanen who was our biggest hope at #2 is such a fringe prospect that they haven't even said he should be in the Marlies development program.  Let's hope he is a really late bloomer, like a very big Holl.

I expected more from Hunter. From all the giants he drafted, minus the easy picks of Matthews and Marner, only 1 player has played any significant time since the 2015 draft and that's Dermott at 6'. Still hope for Liljegren but that's not a great record.

 

[Highlander]

Just glad we didn't go down that road with Hunter.

 

[Guilt Trip]

Just glad we didn't go down that road with Hunter.

Definitely. I hope Dubas can shut everyone up.

 

[KadriFan]

Just glad we didn't go down that road with Hunter.

Definitely. I hope Dubas can shut everyone up.

I have a feeling this will be Dubas last draft in Toronto. 

 

[herman]

https://twitter.com/chicagosteel/status/1314279394144215045

Leafs org and Chicago Steel just swapping parts on the regular.
Not sure if Needham continues to scout for the Leafs, but the Chicago Steel is basically another dev team for the Leafs.