leafsjunkie
Member
KadriFan said:
What a clever name, get that from Simmons? Cox? Someone from a TSN article comment section?
2020-2021 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
- Thread starter herman
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What a clever name, get that from Simmons? Cox? Someone from a TSN article comment section?
Well in that case you won't mind when the board autocorrects it for you next time.
Kin
New member
herman said:
I think, broadly speaking, this is true but it's true for a reason that undercuts a lot of what you're saying here. Namely, that trying to address team's needs via the UFA or trade market isn't actually a very good path especially when you're working with very limited cap space and a weak pool of trade-ready prospects.
I mean, we've gone over why free agency tends to be a bad use of cap dollars before but the side note of that is that trying to trade for the sort of players you'd ideally like to have to balance out a roster is similarly difficult if they're the kind of players who get overvalued on the trade market because they then tend to be likewise heavily valued(and therefore priced) by the teams you're looking to get.
This is why when you're long term strategizing how you're going to build a team you should probably try to draft players with varying skillsets in the hopes that you get different kinds of players who might balance out the strengths and weaknesses of your team.
As a sort of sidenote, this is also why I sometimes think that Dubas' whole "I've cracked the draft, I'm going to lean heavily into doing the very smart thing that other teams haven't learned" thing is a bit of a mistake because in addition to drafting players you'd like to see on your club one day I also think you want to be drafting players other teams value highly so you can use them in trades.
And so I think one thing fueling some of this frustration with Dubas' draft is that not only does he seem to again be investing very heavily in one specific area but when it's the area the team is already pretty good with, and the area he used basically the team's entire UFA budget to further supplement, it does not look like he actually appreciate that teams should be well balanced.
herman said:
Well, again, I'd say that this draft emphasized a very narrow definition of skill, the sort of which the team is very well stacked on and which is probably the easiest/cheapest thing to add in free agency, especially on the wings.
Because, you know, sort of undeniably the one thing the Leafs absolutely can't teach their prospects is how to grow taller.
herman
Well-known member
It?s been awhile since we did an essay discussion! Kind of harder to pull off on mobile so I might be choppy and brief without direct quotation reference (Friday, man).
By well rounding a team taking time, I mean, Dubas outlined his plan pretty clearly from the outset: inject talent via draft, overlooked free agents on the cheap from every source available, lay a multi-tier development pipeline, and use the results as either roster or trade assets. Locking in the core and then complementing their growth with whatever was needed to fill the gaps.
Jeff Veillette has indicated Dubas wanted to pursue acquiring Coleman and Gourd back in the AHL to balance the lineup but he was only an assistant back then. That gives some indication to what well rounded means to Dubas (which is different from what the general fan base seems to want initially until those guys win).
This front office has never gone down the route of an overpriced free agent so far, other than top tier fishing for Tavares. We will see after this week whether that continues to hold true (the cap constraint sort of pins it to a particular tier).
I?ll push back slightly on the Dubas drafts too many wingers bit. It?s been mostly defense. Wingers stand out because those were the last two top picks made (Robertson, Amirov).
Tallness is nice to have, and certainly not under anybody?s control; the philosophy is that getting players who can be effective even if they?re not tall or muscled yet bodes well for when they grow and add strength. Reach is nice, but speed and effective positioning, and stronger puck management are the aspects that matter. I do know for sure that development teams can build hockey butts, the foundation of skating and positioning strength.
By well rounding a team taking time, I mean, Dubas outlined his plan pretty clearly from the outset: inject talent via draft, overlooked free agents on the cheap from every source available, lay a multi-tier development pipeline, and use the results as either roster or trade assets. Locking in the core and then complementing their growth with whatever was needed to fill the gaps.
Jeff Veillette has indicated Dubas wanted to pursue acquiring Coleman and Gourd back in the AHL to balance the lineup but he was only an assistant back then. That gives some indication to what well rounded means to Dubas (which is different from what the general fan base seems to want initially until those guys win).
This front office has never gone down the route of an overpriced free agent so far, other than top tier fishing for Tavares. We will see after this week whether that continues to hold true (the cap constraint sort of pins it to a particular tier).
I?ll push back slightly on the Dubas drafts too many wingers bit. It?s been mostly defense. Wingers stand out because those were the last two top picks made (Robertson, Amirov).
Tallness is nice to have, and certainly not under anybody?s control; the philosophy is that getting players who can be effective even if they?re not tall or muscled yet bodes well for when they grow and add strength. Reach is nice, but speed and effective positioning, and stronger puck management are the aspects that matter. I do know for sure that development teams can build hockey butts, the foundation of skating and positioning strength.
Nik said:
Weegar's been a pretty popular name to target in the analytics community for awhile now too.
https://twitter.com/andystrickland/status/1314417237843939328
Another possible trade target if the Leafs don't get what they want from free agency.
Another possible trade target if the Leafs don't get what they want from free agency.
Kin
New member
herman said:
I get what you're saying here but it reads like "They've never done the thing except for the time they did it to an extent that effectively precluded them from ever doing it again in the future".
herman said:
I don't think I said he drafts too many wingers. I've said he drafts to a too narrowly defined concept of "skill"(and seems entirely uninterested in a diversity of skillsets) and that scoring wingers are probably the easiest holes to fill in free agency.
herman said:
I think you've misinterpreted what I said here but the obvious counterpoint is that you said that a focus should be on what a team can develop in players post-draft. Things like effective positioning, puck management and even speed are things that can theoretically be taught. Height isn't.
But again, this isn't to say that a team should prioritize height over "skill" or whatever. I'm rejecting the idea that you should prioritize any one thing to the extent that you aren't bringing on a group of prospects with varying attributes.
Something around Johnsson for Weeger seems to make a bit of sense for both teams.
Guilt Trip
Active member
Do it!CarltonTheBear said:
WAYNEINIONA
New member
I'd like to see that happen.CarltonTheBear said:
https://twitter.com/Account4hockey/status/1314566261502861312
This isn't any different than what he tweeted but it's still nice to hear again.
This isn't any different than what he tweeted but it's still nice to hear again.
Guilt Trip
Active member
Click bait? CTB make it happen. I heard an interesting take yesterday from Bobby Mac. He said everyone has Holl with Muzzin as the shutdown pair but like everyone says, Holl isn't a shutdown guy. He suggested Holl with Rielly as 2nd pairing and get a shutdown guy to go with Muzz. Let's Holl get an easier match up and use his strengths more, which is moving the puck. It actually makes sense when you think of it. Holl played over his head last year being thrown into a top pair shutdown guy and did a great job. Put him down the line up and he could be that #4 guy.CarltonTheBear said:
bustaheims
Active member
CarltonTheBear said:
Would be a great deal for the Leafs, assuming Weegar signs for a similar amount as his previous contract.
Guilt Trip
Active member
I think he plays both and usually plays the left side when he's paired with Ekblad.Frank E said: