2022-23 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
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bustaheims
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Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
If the team doesn't feel there are actually better options out there, is it worth the risk of him walking? Or do they make the change for the sake of making a change, even if it's a downgrade?
Another performance like against Tampa last spring, and I'm happy extending him without a playoff win. A poor showing, on the other hand, suggests there's a real flaw with the team beyond randomness/luck/circumstance.
Zee
Active member
bustaheims said:
That's my fear. Get a guy for the sake of getting a guy and he trades Nylander for a Ritchie type. That's not progress. Look at what a great team the genius old school hockey mind of Ken Holland assembled. Yeah the Oilers made the conference finals cause they have McDavid and Draisaitl, the team still sucks balls.
Guilt Trip
Active member
Me too. I'm a fan. From the way he treats the players to the moves he's made. This team is one of the best Leafs teams I've ever seen play and I'm enjoying the show.Bill_Berg_is_sad said:
bustaheims
Active member
Zee said:
Agreed. If there's someone out there who represents a new way of thinking that is an improvement AND the Leafs don't show up in the playoffs or Dubas isn't open to signing an extension, go for it. Otherwise, I don't think it moves the team forward. No old boys club types or anyone with that way of thinking. The game has evolved past that, and the team needs to be run by those who are more aligned with the way the game is played now, not 15 years ago.
Andy007
Active member
Zee said:
To piggyback on this last statement and expand a bit, I think the semantics of when a teams loses in the playoffs has became somewhat antiquated with the implementation of division (and not points) based seeding. Does Edmonton barely beating an average Kings team (that wouldn't even make the playoffs in the Eastern Conference) and a Flames team that couldn't stop a beachball in the post season automatically put them in a better position than Toronto, who lost by a goal in 7 games to the Stanley Cup winning team? Quite frankly look what happened to Edmonton when they finally faced a quality opponent; they got swept by an Avs team and their BACKUP goalie!
So I don't know, obviously we can't keep watching a Dubas team falter over and over again in the first round and never expect change but it's just such a weird playoff system that I have a hard time being angry with a GM that put together teams good enough to play with and even outplay both the Bruins and the Lightning, 2 of the best teams in the entire NHL...who happen to be in the same division.
L K
Active member
I'm fine being open to an alternative if there is a better option available, but who is that better option. The Leafs are in the middle of their best stretch of regular season performance in team history. The lack of playoff success is a problem but especially last season it's hard to blame the roster construction for the loss.
The one other criticism I had of Dubas was his draft record. I really liked the picks he made but a lot of them hadn't hit the NHL. This year we have really been seeing more players hit the NHL and that really starts to take away the last argument that Dubas hasn't really had internal replacements to account for the guys lost in free agency.
I'm down for an extension. If he wants to wait for the offseason that's fine. The other thing might be to consider what his relationship is with Matthews. If they have a solid relationship do we really want to fire/not bring back Dubas right when we have the chance to extend him.
The one other criticism I had of Dubas was his draft record. I really liked the picks he made but a lot of them hadn't hit the NHL. This year we have really been seeing more players hit the NHL and that really starts to take away the last argument that Dubas hasn't really had internal replacements to account for the guys lost in free agency.
I'm down for an extension. If he wants to wait for the offseason that's fine. The other thing might be to consider what his relationship is with Matthews. If they have a solid relationship do we really want to fire/not bring back Dubas right when we have the chance to extend him.
bustaheims
Active member
Andy said:
Agreed. This is why I'm less concerned about the results and I'm choosing to focus on the quality of their performances. Another series like last year against Tampa? That basically came down to luck more than anything else - a bounce here, a call there, and the Leafs take the series over the two-time defending champs (who also happened to make it all the way to the Finals). Get that kind of performance again, and sign me up for more Dubas. A performance like we saw against Montreal in 2021? That would indicate some flaws with the roster, and would lead me to want to explore options at GM who might be better able to plug those gaps and get the team over the hump.
Bill_Berg
Active member
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
Well no rush, but extend him playoff win or not is the idea. And the article argues that GMs shouldn't be fired based on playoffs, at least not when they are lovely everywhere else and they're playing coin flip series. Maybe if you lose to Montreal three times in a row, fire that guy, but Tampa two years in a row, don't judge the GM by those losses.
IJustLurkHere
Member
Zee said:
Best reason to extend him right now may be exactly that. If Dubas feels it's win in the first round or get fired, there's an incentive to do something dramatic and short sighted. Otherwise, while optimistic about this particular iteration of the Leafs, I can't see a rush to commit.
ZBBM
Active member
Sorry, I'm not buying any of these arguments, especially the ones for extending him before the playoffs. That's just crazy.
OK, I'll contradict myself: LK's argument with respect to his relationship with Matthews has some weight with me. I don't know how you suss that out but it's paramount to keep Matthews. (OTOH you could turn that argument on its head ... if they keep flaming out why would Matthews want to stay?)
Otherwise: the name of the game is to compete for a Cup. Nothing but R1 exits ? especially when you have had a chance to close teams out at home a couple of times (near-unforgivable) ? aren't acceptable in my book.
He's not the only forward-thinking young GM candidate out there, either.
OK, I'll contradict myself: LK's argument with respect to his relationship with Matthews has some weight with me. I don't know how you suss that out but it's paramount to keep Matthews. (OTOH you could turn that argument on its head ... if they keep flaming out why would Matthews want to stay?)
Otherwise: the name of the game is to compete for a Cup. Nothing but R1 exits ? especially when you have had a chance to close teams out at home a couple of times (near-unforgivable) ? aren't acceptable in my book.
He's not the only forward-thinking young GM candidate out there, either.
bustaheims
Active member
Bender said:
That's just it - it's easy to say there's option out there. It's much harder to identify them - and, without that, saying they're out there carries no real weight.
As for the failures to close out teams, Dubas isn't on the ice. All he can do is provide the talent. He's done a good job of that. Eventually, you get to the point where impact the results is beyond the realm of what the GM can do - and I think we're basically there with the team, and I'm not convinced a new GM can do better at turning the tides of fortune in the Leafs' direction
Zee
Active member
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
The problem is, if they decide to move on from Dubas, they will most likely not get a "forward-thinking young GM candidate" as that would be the same ideology that they just had. There would probably be a push from the board to get an "old-school hockey mind!" who will approach drafting/development/trades way differently than Dubas has done. That's what scares me.
WhatIfGodWasALeaf
Active member
Arn said:
Likewise, the jobs his until he doesn't want it anymore.
He'd be unemployed for a few days at most if he left the Leafs, there are multiple teams that would fire their current GM just to hire Dubas.
ZBBM
Active member
I have to say, I'm pretty baffled by all this unconditional love for Dubas. You make it sound like he's irreplaceable. That's just silly.
Are you satisfied with an endless number of R1 exits? If you're OK with that, then sure, give him (of anyone) an open-ended job. (Don't think this would fly in business school, though).
If you're not OK with that, then the argument reduces to how many chances are you willing to give him? I say this should be his last, and I further think there's nothing unreasonable in saying that.
Are you satisfied with an endless number of R1 exits? If you're OK with that, then sure, give him (of anyone) an open-ended job. (Don't think this would fly in business school, though).
If you're not OK with that, then the argument reduces to how many chances are you willing to give him? I say this should be his last, and I further think there's nothing unreasonable in saying that.
Guilt Trip
Active member
The losses are on the players, not the GM. This is one of the best Leads teams I've ever had they pleasure of watching.Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
Arn
Active member
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
Because I think, overall, Dubas is doing his job of putting the team in a position to win. And it's proving that with the records they're putting up over an extended body of work in the regular season. They're also extremely fun to watch.
When it comes to playoff success I still think he's put them in the position to win. Obviously I'm not satisfied with losing, but I am satisfied with the process and progress.
They just haven't yet won a first round for various reasons. These reasons some might want to call excuses. But I think there's validity in most of them. I feel like Dubas has allowed himself to evolve and the team has been getting better in those situations pretty much year on year. Last year was literally a bounce away from beting the 2 time back to back champions. They put themselves in a place to win - from the GM down to the players. Tearing it all up isn't going to change that.
Imagine if this year it's the Lightning and it's 3 games each. And Matthews and Nylander and Murray are out injured for game 7. And there's a missed call that leads to the game winning goal in OT of game 7 for the Lightning. How do you pin that on Dubas? Are you still not giving him a new contract for not getting past the first round? Are you ready to tear it all down and start again?
Sometimes you don't know what you have til it's gone and sometimes change for the sake of change is the wrong path.