2022-23 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
- Thread starter herman
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Kin
New member
I'm generally speaking more pro-Dubas than I am anti-Dubas but I think maybe this is something where I think a slightly broader view is needed. I don't think not extending him would necessarily amount to "blaming" him for the playoff exits so much as it is a recognition that where his judgement has typically faltered a bit, in my eyes, has been with looking at the team mid-season and trying to judge how best to position the team to make a deep playoff run. That's been the source of some of his worst moves. Likewise, while it's fair to say that most of these playoff series could have gone the other way with a bit of luck, that's both a positive and negative as they haven't turned in any real stinkers but they also haven't come out and just whooped teams despite having a few series' where they were probably the better team.
But maybe even more than that I think Shanahan will need to look at what the job ahead is going to be and what Dubas' plan to address that. Because while I think there's some merit to the idea that Dubas has done a good job in putting the team in a solid position year after year and, given the randomness of the playoffs, there's not much more to be done I also think that there's probably a point at which repeated first round exits weighs on players and makes the next big challenge, re-signing Mathews et al, more difficult. The next phase of Dubas' job, win in the playoffs or not, will represent a different challenge than what he's faced so far and one where his track record is, I think it's safe to say, pretty middle-ground.
Ultimately though I'm not super-convinced it would be a catastrophe either way. I think Dubas is a smart guy and does a relatively good job but if he were replaced I'm not overly worried that Shanahan would go out and get Brian Burke 2.0 either.
But maybe even more than that I think Shanahan will need to look at what the job ahead is going to be and what Dubas' plan to address that. Because while I think there's some merit to the idea that Dubas has done a good job in putting the team in a solid position year after year and, given the randomness of the playoffs, there's not much more to be done I also think that there's probably a point at which repeated first round exits weighs on players and makes the next big challenge, re-signing Mathews et al, more difficult. The next phase of Dubas' job, win in the playoffs or not, will represent a different challenge than what he's faced so far and one where his track record is, I think it's safe to say, pretty middle-ground.
Ultimately though I'm not super-convinced it would be a catastrophe either way. I think Dubas is a smart guy and does a relatively good job but if he were replaced I'm not overly worried that Shanahan would go out and get Brian Burke 2.0 either.
ZBBM
Active member
All of your comments are good and Arn and Nik, thanks for taking the time to go in depth.
I just think at the end of the day this team is way too good to keep losing in the first round, especially when they have had the chance to close out teams on home ice. Is that Dubas's fault? Not entirely, of course. Could somebody else have done better? Who knows, but one glaring fault that hasn't been corrected is that the team's glaring faults haven't been corrected in the playoffs (PP failures, sticking with line combos too long). That's on the coaches more than anyone, but it's a management issue and Dubas is responsible.
Sooner or later, somebody needs to held accountable for what, I hope you'll all agree, is a woeful record in the playoffs (regardless of their effort or "luck"). Sooner or later, to be considered successful you have to go deep. My line remains the same: R1W or bust for Dubas (which would, of course, apply to the coaching staff too, in all likelihood).
I just think at the end of the day this team is way too good to keep losing in the first round, especially when they have had the chance to close out teams on home ice. Is that Dubas's fault? Not entirely, of course. Could somebody else have done better? Who knows, but one glaring fault that hasn't been corrected is that the team's glaring faults haven't been corrected in the playoffs (PP failures, sticking with line combos too long). That's on the coaches more than anyone, but it's a management issue and Dubas is responsible.
Sooner or later, somebody needs to held accountable for what, I hope you'll all agree, is a woeful record in the playoffs (regardless of their effort or "luck"). Sooner or later, to be considered successful you have to go deep. My line remains the same: R1W or bust for Dubas (which would, of course, apply to the coaching staff too, in all likelihood).
Arn
Active member
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
This is an interesting point that I hadn?t really considered. Dubas came in and had Babcock who wasn?t ?his? coach. Eventually, and probably about the right time, he moved Babcock out and got his own coach in Keefe.
I?d agree that a lot of the issues have been around usage of players - being too reliant on Marner/Matthews last year then not having them had reps with mothers so unable to change.
Keefe, of course, is learning on the job and is probably a couple of years behind Dubas in terms of experience and evolution. Perhaps Dubas needs to be a little more hands on in directing him. Is that possibly a ?failing?. I dunno.
I wonder if this year could be the last chance for Keefe, and then Dubas gets another chance to change coach before the buck ultimately moves on up to Dubas? As you say the team is too good to lose in the first round. Dubas has built that team. Keefe, the coaches and players are responsible for the execution so I think they?re expendable before Dubas.
I fully get where you?re coming from with your opinion and I don?t think it?s a wildly out there position to take in any way, despite not agreeing.
Nik said:
I think the MTL series definitely qualifies as a "stinker", up there for the worst in franchise history. If there was was going to be any senior management housecleaning, I think the result of that series would have been a fair pretext.
But certainly the regular season and Tampa series was redeeming - the leafs were a top team through the season, and barely got beaten by another top team. These things happen. The series was a coin flip, and it'll be a coin flip again this year the way things are shaping up.
I think one thing that gets overlooked is how well Dubas has managed the cap situation since the big 4 got their deals. When they were signed, it was done with the understanding that the cap would go up, and those deals would allow for more roster flexibility. No one could have predicted the flat cap era, and I'm hard pressed to think of any team in the league that was more impacted than toronto - but Dubas made it work, and still continues to this season. I think he deserves a lot of credit in that regard.
I'd be happy if they extended him at any point, but it would appear that it won't happen without some form of playoff success, else it would have happened already, I'm guessing.
Kin
New member
Bill33 said:
Obviously the results there were disappointing but I don't really agree. When I say a stinker I mean going out and getting their butts kicked and losing in 4 or 5 games. A series where they dominated play for most of it and came very close to winning in 5 games doesn't qualify.
Bill33 said:
I don't agree here either. One, it was always risky to sign Tavares without knowing what the cap would do going forward. Predicting non-stop major growth probably wasn't realistic. Moreover the Leafs issues were exacerbated by the reality, and I've defended Dubas as much as anyone on this front, that the best you could credibly say about any of the Nylander-Matthews-Marner deals is that they were roughly fair market rates.
The cap situation may have been well managed but it was still very much a situation of Dubas' making. And I think the charitable thing to say about the Tavares signing is that it's a move that hasn't yet yielded the desired results.
https://twitter.com/LeafsPR/status/1615084266840285184
Robertson done for the season.
https://twitter.com/markhmasters/status/1615061968284684290
The 2 week mark would be this upcoming Saturday.
Robertson done for the season.
https://twitter.com/markhmasters/status/1615061968284684290
The 2 week mark would be this upcoming Saturday.
Champ Kind
New member
Significantly Insignificant said:
There's definitely some bad luck involved, that's for sure. But some of the more astute members on the forum (I'm looking at you, Herman and CTB) clearly noted in the past that Robertson's stature, fearless approach, and skating mechanics (hunched over) expose him to greater risk of injury that other similar players (Caufield, for example).
I really hope he can get this figured out because he's going to be running out of chances real soon. I'm not convinced he's going to be the player we all hope he will be for the Leafs, but these injuries may eventually put his NHL career at risk.
Guilt Trip
Active member
Marner skates the same way. It's more unlucky then anything. Look at Chychrun. Guy has a long list of injuries and he's not a small dude. Timmins isn't small either.A Weekend at Bernier's said:
As for running out of chances soon. Nick will be 22 in September so there's plenty of time. Timmins will be 25 in Sept and he's still getting a chance. If you have the talent they don't give up on you that fast...fans on the other hand...
I still have hope for him.
Zee
Active member
Yeah Robertson being only 21 gives him time to still be an NHL player. We need not look any further than other late bloomers like Verhaeghe, Marchment that were in the Leafs system at one point. That said, those 2 guys are big, Robertson isn't, and I agree he has to somehow alter his style and not go crazy trying to body guys way bigger than himself. Hopefully he can start fresh next season.
Bender said:
He's played a total of 82 professional hockey games in his draft+2,3,4 seasons. Those are arguably the most crucial years of a NHL players development. 31 NHL games over 3 seasons. Next season I feel like regardless of how he looks at camp he needs to go back down to the AHL and play 20 minutes a night for at least half the season before getting a look again. He needs to basically reset how he thinks/feels/plays the game and that isn't going to happen for him at the NHL level right away.
bustaheims
Active member
CarltonTheBear said:
Yeah. At this point, he needs rebuild so many of his core attributes that he might even need to spend some time in the ECHL at first. The talent is NHL level, but the rest needs to be rebuilt in a way I didn't really realize earlier in the season.