2022-23 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion

[Joe S.]

I?m willing to bet every player in the nhl does not play at 100% every freaking game.

I?m willing to bet none of us give 100% 100% of the time in any aspect of our lives.

 

[Bender]

I mean, the nature of sports can be really reactive. If you're reading a play and you make a bad read does that mean you weren't giving it 100%? I don't think so. You can give it your all and still not be perfect.

 

[lamajama]

I hate the Nylander argument because it's just not the right argument.

Nylander is a gifted hockey player who is able to affect the outcome of a game all by himself.  He has been the Leafs most consistent performer in the playoffs over their last three playoffs.  So this idea that he is soft and doesn't show up in big games is completely made up in my mind.

Now does Nylander take some nights off in December, January, and February, and is it more noticeable when Nylander takes a night off?  I would say that they answer to those questions is yes.  But I am willing to live with that because until the Leafs start missing the playoffs, Nylander isn't the problem.

I agree...and I believe the media is quick to jump on Willy and Sheldon is also quick to point out when he has a "night off"....more so than any other <cough cough> Leaf...

 

[bustaheims]

I?m willing to bet every player in the nhl does not play at 100% every freaking game.

I?m willing to bet none of us give 100% 100% of the time in any aspect of our lives.

It's basically impossible to give 100% all the time. Everyone has off days, low energy days, etc. Putting in an honest effort most of the time - which I think just about every full time NHL player does - that's all that can reasonably be expected.

 

[herman]

Sheldon is also quick to point out when he has a "night off"....more so than any other <cough cough> Leaf...

Yes, the media jumps on him; Keefe does it by design though. Nylander has said he responds to that sort of stick-based motivation (I suspect Engvall does as well), vs the carrot stuff that Marner seems to respond better to. Media's only able to latch onto what's said out loud, so... *shrug*

Willy has kickstarted comebacks and single handedly won games for the Leafs thus far. People will only remember what conforms to their pre-existing beliefs anyway.

 

[hobarth]

Back in the day there was a rumor that TO offered Stamkos 13 plus mil. per year , he eventually settled for $8.5 mil. with TB, that's around a 5 mil. $ difference, that didn't entice Stamkos who is a Markham boy. TO also promised him added revenue for advertising $s with Cdn Tire and others, again rumored, that $20 mil. per year was the ultimate figure. 

Gaudreau was offered more money by Calgary than Columbus, Calgary is/was a very good team, Columbus not so good, yet Gaudreau wanted out.  Now Tkachuk wants out and I think we can bet he doesn't want to stay in Canada, I'd bet he wants to return to St.L. or maybe even Arizona, he'd willingly take a hair cut to do so.

So what, most players of any quality have contracts early in their careers with modified NMC and generally there is a 10 team list that they submit that names the teams they don't want to go to, usually/normally the 7 Canadian teams are on those lists, Kadri had Calgary on his and he was playing for a Cdn. team.

It seems that generally both Canadians and Americans aren't happy playing for a Canadian team, what might this mean for TO, Matthews, Marner, Nylander get a bit of a thrashing from the Cdn. media and fan bases, in 1 to 2 years they will be able to go/do whatever they want, where ever they want. At the very least I'd expect Matthews to sign below the border.

How should a GM react in Canada, knowing this, keep the players until their contracts expire, like Calgary did with Gaudreau, or trade those players away while they can for asset(s), even tho their competitive edge would also be traded away.

It's tough being a Canadian GM and even tougher being a fan of a Canadian NHL team. It'll be 30 years since the last Canadian team won a Cup, I wonder how many more before the next Canadian champion?

 

[bustaheims]

Back in the day there was a rumor that TO offered Stamkos 13 plus mil. per year , he eventually settled for $8.5 mil. with TB, that's around a 5 mil. $ difference, that didn't entice Stamkos who is a Markham boy. TO also promised him added revenue for advertising $s with Cdn Tire and others, again rumored, that $20 mil. per year was the ultimate figure. 

Whoever started that rumour is completely out of touch with the actual payout for sponsorships in Canada. No one in the league earns $6.5M a year. Not even McDavid or Crosby. Absolutely unrealistic.

As for the rest of your post, you just can't compare Toronto to markets like Calgary/Edmonton/etc. The reason players don't want to go out west has nothing to do with it being in Canada. It's the cities themselves. Lots of players have teams in smaller cities on both sides of the border on their no trade lists. Players mostly had Toronto on their lists when the Leafs were bad and poorly managed. You don't hear about many who have Toronto specifically on their lists now. Let's not make the Tkachuk/Gaudreau thing into an issue that includes the Leafs, because there's no good evidence that it's true.

 

[rjd]

I?m willing to bet every player in the nhl does not play at 100% every freaking game.

I?m willing to bet none of us give 100% 100% of the time in any aspect of our lives.

I will fully admit that I have mailed it in on some of my posts.

 

[Joe S.]

I?m willing to bet every player in the nhl does not play at 100% every freaking game.

I?m willing to bet none of us give 100% 100% of the time in any aspect of our lives.

I will fully admit that I have mailed it in on some of my posts.

Floater!!

 

[rjd]

I?m willing to bet every player in the nhl does not play at 100% every freaking game.

I?m willing to bet none of us give 100% 100% of the time in any aspect of our lives.

I will fully admit that I have mailed it in on some of my posts.

Floater!!

Just so you know, hfboards is on my no trade list.

 

[Nik]

As for the rest of your post, you just can't compare Toronto to markets like Calgary/Edmonton/etc. The reason players don't want to go out west has nothing to do with it being in Canada. It's the cities themselves. Lots of players have teams in smaller cities on both sides of the border on their no trade lists. Players mostly had Toronto on their lists when the Leafs were bad and poorly managed. You don't hear about many who have Toronto specifically on their lists now. Let's not make the Tkachuk/Gaudreau thing into an issue that includes the Leafs, because there's no good evidence that it's true.

With that said I do think there's evidence that a lot of players don't like playing in Canada when they have the option of playing somewhere else for the same money, nicer weather and much, much more anonymity and less stress. It's why I always argued that the cap not allowing for valuing players differently according to market conditions was so flawed.

That said, as you point out, there's really no evidence that the Leafs have trouble attracting free agents or retaining their own. Given their relative lack of success, their record with that is actually very good.

 

[hobarth]

Back in the day there was a rumor that TO offered Stamkos 13 plus mil. per year , he eventually settled for $8.5 mil. with TB, that's around a 5 mil. $ difference, that didn't entice Stamkos who is a Markham boy. TO also promised him added revenue for advertising $s with Cdn Tire and others, again rumored, that $20 mil. per year was the ultimate figure. 

Whoever started that rumour is completely out of touch with the actual payout for sponsorships in Canada. No one in the league earns $6.5M a year. Not even McDavid or Crosby. Absolutely unrealistic.

As for the rest of your post, you just can't compare Toronto to markets like Calgary/Edmonton/etc. The reason players don't want to go out west has nothing to do with it being in Canada. It's the cities themselves. Lots of players have teams in smaller cities on both sides of the border on their no trade lists. Players mostly had Toronto on their lists when the Leafs were bad and poorly managed. You don't hear about many who have Toronto specifically on their lists now. Let's not make the Tkachuk/Gaudreau thing into an issue that includes the Leafs, because there's no good evidence that it's true.

30 years and counting, you must think that Canadian teams have been inept and more than likely will continue to be for some unknown reason.

There is evidence, that I pointed out, I believe there was even an unofficial poll of NHL players with modified NMCs in their contracts and the vast majority of quality players from below the border said they included all Canadian teams in the teams they didn't want to play for.

I'm not sure where you came up with $6.5 mil. theory, how would you know this?

Tavares and Kane are outliers, TO usually attracts the Spezzas/Thorntons/Mogilnys/Giordanos, players at or near the end of their careers. If TO was an American team I wonder how much less AM, MM, JT would've settled for in their last contracts. I understand that the $13.5 I believe Stamkos was offered works out to only a small amount less take home than he's currently making.

That's an incredible disadvantage for Canadian teams, something that should be addressed by the NHL. Personally, I think there should be a Cap for Canadian teams that's separate from American teams.

 

[princedpw]

Back in the day there was a rumor that TO offered Stamkos 13 plus mil. per year , he eventually settled for $8.5 mil. with TB, that's around a 5 mil. $ difference, that didn't entice Stamkos who is a Markham boy. TO also promised him added revenue for advertising $s with Cdn Tire and others, again rumored, that $20 mil. per year was the ultimate figure. 

Whoever started that rumour is completely out of touch with the actual payout for sponsorships in Canada. No one in the league earns $6.5M a year. Not even McDavid or Crosby. Absolutely unrealistic.

As for the rest of your post, you just can't compare Toronto to markets like Calgary/Edmonton/etc. The reason players don't want to go out west has nothing to do with it being in Canada. It's the cities themselves. Lots of players have teams in smaller cities on both sides of the border on their no trade lists. Players mostly had Toronto on their lists when the Leafs were bad and poorly managed. You don't hear about many who have Toronto specifically on their lists now. Let's not make the Tkachuk/Gaudreau thing into an issue that includes the Leafs, because there's no good evidence that it's true.

30 years and counting, you must think that Canadian teams have been inept and more than likely will continue to be for some unknown reason.

There is evidence, that I pointed out, I believe there was even an unofficial poll of NHL players with modified NMCs in their contracts and the vast majority of quality players from below the border said they included all Canadian teams in the teams they didn't want to play for.

I'm not sure where you came up with $6.5 mil. theory, how would you know this?

Tavares and Kane are outliers, TO usually attracts the Spezzas/Thorntons/Mogilnys/Giordanos, players at or near the end of their careers. If TO was an American team I wonder how much less AM, MM, JT would've settled for in their last contracts. I understand that the $13.5 I believe Stamkos was offered works out to only a small amount less take home than he's currently making.

That's an incredible disadvantage for Canadian teams, something that should be addressed by the NHL. Personally, I think there should be a Cap for Canadian teams that's separate from American teams.

I agree that teams in high-tax areas are at a disadvantage as $10M on the cap from a Florida team gives a player more than $10M from a Canadian team, or, say, the Rangers.  It's a subtle difference, but it seems to have made a significant difference to the team Tampa was able to pay for the last couple of years.  Given that the Leafs, Habs, and Rangers make a huge percentage of the league surplus revenues, it is certainly an annoying penalty.  I wish the cap adjusted for this somehow, but it seems extremely difficult due to the volume and complexity of tax laws.  The simpler solution is to soften up the cap a little (which would soften though not eliminate differences in taxation).  But of course that's never going to happen.

 

[Nik]

I'm not sure where you came up with $6.5 mil. theory, how would you know this?

The Forbes list of highest earning hockey players makes it pretty clear that the idea of a hockey player making 6.5 million off ice was never realistic.  More than that it establishes that a player's star status within the league probably matters a lot more than the market they play in.

Hockey's Highest Earning Players

Tavares and Kane are outliers, TO usually attracts the Spezzas/Thorntons/Mogilnys/Giordanos, players at or near the end of their careers.

Leaving aside the reality that no team has a long track record of signing lots of top of their game young free agents, Mogilny is a weird inclusion there. He was coming off a 43 goal season and was 31 years old which is literally the youngest a player could be under the pre-2004 CBA and be a UFA. 

If TO was an American team I wonder how much less AM, MM, JT would've settled for in their last contracts. I understand that the $13.5 I believe Stamkos was offered works out to only a small amount less take home than he's currently making.

The tax thing has largely been debunked:

https://twitter.com/walsha/status/1307480088800182272

And it was very widely reported at the time that Tavares took considerably less from the Leafs than he was offered by the Sharks.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

https://twitter.com/dalter/status/1549964374818885632

oh no

 

[Nik]

I agree that teams in high-tax areas are at a disadvantage as $10M on the cap from a Florida team gives a player more than $10M from a Canadian team, or, say, the Rangers.  It's a subtle difference, but it seems to have made a significant difference to the team Tampa was able to pay for the last couple of years.  Given that the Leafs, Habs, and Rangers make a huge percentage of the league surplus revenues, it is certainly an annoying penalty.  I wish the cap adjusted for this somehow, but it seems extremely difficult due to the volume and complexity of tax laws.  The simpler solution is to soften up the cap a little (which would soften though not eliminate differences in taxation).  But of course that's never going to happen.

I am by no means an expert but aside from the tweet I reference above about the various tax dodges available to athletes, I think just in general the tax situation for pro athletes is quite a bit more complicated than simply the tax rates of the various states(or countries) they live in thanks to all of the visiting athlete/entertainer laws passed in the states.

And along those lines, it's probably important to note that the advantage Florida has is certainly not shared by all US states and to attribute it to the Lightning's success is probably misguided. Florida does tank low in the US by tax burden(Nashville, though, is the team in the state with the lowest tax burden) but the other really successful US clubs in the cap era have been from states with tax burdens either in the middle of the pack(Penguins) or towards the top(Both the Blackhawks and Kings are in States in the top 10). If it's just about free agent signings, the Rangers have been as good as anyone at signing desirable free agents and when it comes to tax burdens New York is #1 with a bullet.

 

[princedpw]

I did realize the thing about taxes ^^ limited to 20% ... I'm honestly shocked.  That seems totally wrong.... It's not reasonable for multi-million dollar athletes to be taxed at a vastly lower rate than your average Joe....

though of course I shouldn't be shocked.  The powerful run the system to enrich themselves.  They seem to be doing well at it.

 

[clark17]

  Athletes aren?t taxed lower than the average joe. It?s just that all states allow you to write off loan / mortgage interest and then some have little or no state tax.  When you combine those advantages it?s not easy to choose Canada where you?re net income will be 20-25 % lower ?.if it was the other way around Bettman would have a adjusted cap in place to even out the advantages.  He doesn?t care when the US prospers !

 

[bustaheims]

  Athletes aren?t taxed lower than the average joe. It?s just that all states allow you to write off loan / mortgage interest and then some have little or no state tax.  When you combine those advantages it?s not easy to choose Canada where you?re net income will be 20-25 % lower ?.if it was the other way around Bettman would have a adjusted cap in place to even out the advantages.  He doesn?t care when the US prospers !

As Nik's post pointed out, with a good agent, accountant, and tax lawyer, the differences in net income become marginal.

 

[Nik]

All this tax talk seems somewhat beside the point where there's still no actual solid argument that the Leafs have done badly in attracting free agents. Teams like Edmonton, Winnipeg, Ottawa and Calgary absolutely have challenges in that department but they're related to being less wealthy teams in smaller cities that have lousy weather on top of all the other stuff Canadian teams have to deal with.

But to sit around and pretend like Columbus or San Jose or Minnesota have some big leg up on signing free agents compared to Toronto or Montreal...I just don't see that the facts are there. Hell, there aren't really even facts being alleged. Almost all of hobarth's post is unsupported assertions about NTCs, rumours, and things that just aren't true.