2024 Offseason Thread: Changes

[dappleganger]

Paying guys off the charts to the detriment of everything else is a terrible plan.

Who was really paid off the charts? Not Matthews or Willy. Marner maybe a million too much? Too much, sure but not PLD, Huberdeau bad.

And who gave Huberdeau that contract? Not that I?m disagreeing with your overall point.

Please let it be anyone other than the current GM of the Leafs... 

 

[Redleaf]

There are 4 S's to hockey scouting: Skills, Skating, Smarts, Speed

I want to add a 5th: Showtime, or Spotlight
It's a skill to be able to harness the emotions of a situation or circumstance and direct it in a constructive, fruitful manner.

I think Wes Clark has targeted this in the players he's identified recently, on top of their high motor/high floor foundations. Minten/Lisowsky, Cowan, Knies, all stepped up in their respective playoff runs. The Leafs nabbed Jacob Quillan who snuffed out Knies' championship hopes last season with the OT dagger. It's a factor that can cripple any other standout skill, smarts, skating, speed quality if you don't have it.

Interesting. I?ve also noticed over the years that some players play better in the fishbowl that is Toronto and some wilt under the heat of the bright lights and media pressure. Spotlight and showtime qualities are a thing for sure .

 

[dappleganger]

Marner. Doing god-like things:

https://twitter.com/TicTacTOmar/status/1784407969108459994

When that happened I thought to myself it would have been nice to see him get clobbered pulling that nonsense off. What a useless playoff and he'll be remembered for this? Go build your Instagram page somewhere else.

Tough crowd.

Did you want the Leafs to win?

 

[cabber24]

Marner. Doing god-like things:

https://twitter.com/TicTacTOmar/status/1784407969108459994

When that happened I thought to myself it would have been nice to see him get clobbered pulling that nonsense off. What a useless playoff and he'll be remembered for this? Go build your Instagram page somewhere else.

Tough crowd.

Did you want the Leafs to win?

Just tired of his meaningless contributions.

 

[mr grieves]

Interesting stuff from Mirtle and Jonas on the Leafs Report... worth a listen, but here's the spicy Marner stuff, courtesy of Apple's auto-transcript generator:

?I mean, Shanahan, who knows? Anyway, I think the point is, James, the writing was on the wall, especially with Mitch Marner. I know he's taking a lot of heat right now, but it was very clear at the end of last season that something had..."

"It felt like it was time, and you could kind of see it on his face."

"I think he thought he was going to get traded last year."

"That's true."

"I think that he was probably looking and waiting up until the no move kicked in and thinking, am I getting traded? Also, I don't know for sure because his camp is selective in who they talk to, but my understanding is that it didn't seem like he was 100% against it either."

"That is my understanding, yes. I mean, it's not for him. We've seen that more and more as time has gone on."

"This isn't working for him. The whole year, I'm there every day, I see it more. It just didn't look like he was enjoying himself anymore. He didn't look like he was as invested as he had been. I think he's just, to me, it just looks like someone who's beaten down by everything that's happened. It's hard, James.?

?I think we underrate some of this stuff. It's hard to play at home, number one. It's hard to play at home when you're a star player, and it's hard to play at home when you're not great at handling criticism and handling the spotlight.?

?And as all that stuff built up over playoffs and his inability to come up big in some of those moments, and the scrutiny increased, and obviously the contract was a big part of that.?

?He pays attention to everything. He and his camp pay attention to everything to such a degree. Marner's camp has been mad at me and blackballed me going back five or six years, and I have no idea why.?

?Then no one ever said to me, like, oh, I didn't like this thing you wrote. I think that our coverage of Marner has been largely positive, going way back to when he was drafted and when he first came in. I mean, his rookie season, he was phenomenal.?

?But there's such a sensitivity there. So there's all these feuds going on. And you hear about, he's got private security people that harass media people.?

?And there's really weird stuff that's going on. It's really strange things that go on with Marner. And sometimes I feel bad for him that he's in this...?

If you want to know who's saying what... the pod:

From The Leaf Report: A show about the Toronto Maple Leafs: Another lost year for the Maple Leafs, May 7, 2024
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-leaf-report-a-show-about-the-toronto-maple-leafs/id974288930?i=1000654843133

 

[Zee]

Interesting stuff from Mirtle and Jonas on the Leafs Report... worth a listen, but here's the spicy Marner stuff, courtesy of Apple's auto-transcript generator:

?I mean, Shanahan, who knows? Anyway, I think the point is, James, the writing was on the wall, especially with Mitch Marner. I know he's taking a lot of heat right now, but it was very clear at the end of last season that something had..."

"It felt like it was time, and you could kind of see it on his face."

"I think he thought he was going to get traded last year."

"That's true."

"I think that he was probably looking and waiting up until the no move kicked in and thinking, am I getting traded? Also, I don't know for sure because his camp is selective in who they talk to, but my understanding is that it didn't seem like he was 100% against it either."

"That is my understanding, yes. I mean, it's not for him. We've seen that more and more as time has gone on."

"This isn't working for him. The whole year, I'm there every day, I see it more. It just didn't look like he was enjoying himself anymore. He didn't look like he was as invested as he had been. I think he's just, to me, it just looks like someone who's beaten down by everything that's happened. It's hard, James.?

?I think we underrate some of this stuff. It's hard to play at home, number one. It's hard to play at home when you're a star player, and it's hard to play at home when you're not great at handling criticism and handling the spotlight.?

?And as all that stuff built up over playoffs and his inability to come up big in some of those moments, and the scrutiny increased, and obviously the contract was a big part of that.?

?He pays attention to everything. He and his camp pay attention to everything to such a degree. Marner's camp has been mad at me and blackballed me going back five or six years, and I have no idea why.?

?Then no one ever said to me, like, oh, I didn't like this thing you wrote. I think that our coverage of Marner has been largely positive, going way back to when he was drafted and when he first came in. I mean, his rookie season, he was phenomenal.?

?But there's such a sensitivity there. So there's all these feuds going on. And you hear about, he's got private security people that harass media people.?

?And there's really weird stuff that's going on. It's really strange things that go on with Marner. And sometimes I feel bad for him that he's in this...?

If you want to know who's saying what... the pod:

From The Leaf Report: A show about the Toronto Maple Leafs: Another lost year for the Maple Leafs, May 7, 2024
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-leaf-report-a-show-about-the-toronto-maple-leafs/id974288930?i=1000654843133

I thought that was pretty telling too when I listened. Marner just isn't made for this market if his camp is literally black balling reporters. I mean bad press comes with the job and Mirtle isn't even that harsh on Marner. I suspect it's probably cause Mirtle didn't agree with the 10.9M contract, but who knows. It's nuts really how much Marner let's all this get to him. I know it's not for us to judge because who knows how we would react under that kind of scrutiny, but man, if you're that unhappy this place just isn't for you. Move on.

 

[lamajama]

Paying guys off the charts to the detriment of everything else is a terrible plan.

Who was really paid off the charts? Not Matthews or Willy. Marner maybe a million too much? Too much, sure but not PLD, Huberdeau bad.

Marner (aka "a God") cannot contribute in the playoffs and is overpaid.

Matthews got top dollar and a short-term twice, no one has ever gotten paid so much on a shorter-term contract.

Tavares was #2 paid in the league only behind McDavid when signed.

Nylander got paid on projection, not on production (half a season at a career-high pace), Nylander's previous contract was higher than all his 60-point-peers.

good points but IMO, while a LOT of dough Matthews has earned his contracts and I'm not placing massive playoff blame only on him either.

 

[Joe S.]

I think sometimes people forget at the end of the day he, and every other athlete are human beings with emotions.

 

[cabber24]

Paying guys off the charts to the detriment of everything else is a terrible plan.

Who was really paid off the charts? Not Matthews or Willy. Marner maybe a million too much? Too much, sure but not PLD, Huberdeau bad.

Marner (aka "a God") cannot contribute in the playoffs and is overpaid.

Matthews got top dollar and a short-term twice, no one has ever gotten paid so much on a shorter-term contract.

Tavares was #2 paid in the league only behind McDavid when signed.

Nylander got paid on projection, not on production (half a season at a career-high pace), Nylander's previous contract was higher than all his 60-point-peers.

good points but IMO, while a LOT of dough Matthews has earned his contracts and I'm not placing massive playoff blame only on him either.

Paying guys off the charts to the detriment of everything else is a terrible plan.

Who was really paid off the charts? Not Matthews or Willy. Marner maybe a million too much? Too much, sure but not PLD, Huberdeau bad.

Marner (aka "a God") cannot contribute in the playoffs and is overpaid.

Matthews got top dollar and a short-term twice, no one has ever gotten paid so much on a shorter-term contract.

Tavares was #2 paid in the league only behind McDavid when signed.

Nylander got paid on projection, not on production (half a season at a career-high pace), Nylander's previous contract was higher than all his 60-point-peers.

good points but IMO, while a LOT of dough Matthews has earned his contracts and I'm not placing massive playoff blame only on him either.

McDavid and MacKinnon don?t make the $?s Matthews makes and their contracts are longer term. I really don?t know why Matthews gets max money and short term? The Leafs don?t need to ?win? at signing contracts but they sure as hell don?t need to ?overpay? all their stars either.

 

[Bender]

I think sometimes people forget at the end of the day he, and every other athlete are human beings with emotions.

They are but clearly they cause issues for some more than others. Marner absolutely cannot stand criticism well, at least not publicly. I don't doubt for a second that it was mostly because of him Sheldon had to walk back his comments when he called out the stars. It's definitely not an issue for Willy, just ignore the frigging press.

 

[herman]

I think sometimes people forget at the end of the day he, and every other athlete are human beings with emotions.

They are but clearly they cause issues for some more than others. Marner absolutely cannot stand criticism well, at least not publicly. I don't doubt for a second that it was mostly because of him Sheldon had to walk back his comments when he called out the stars. It's definitely not an issue for Willy, just ignore the frigging press.

Nylander got a rougher ride from the fan base and mainstream media than Marner ever did until maybe this year. Like Chris Johnston remembers being the only person at Sportsnet who wasn?t openly and repeatedly bashing Nylander.

 

[Zee]

I think sometimes people forget at the end of the day he, and every other athlete are human beings with emotions.

I mean it's sports.  When things go wrong in sports people talk about it. Most of the criticism goes towards the guys who are the perceived leaders of the team and who make the most money. It sucks but that's how it is. I'm just saying it obviously affects him and he's bothered by it, so this probably isn't the best place for him to play. It would be better for him to move on

 

[herman]

Interesting stuff from Mirtle and Jonas on the Leafs Report... worth a listen, but here's the spicy Marner stuff, courtesy of Apple's auto-transcript generator:

?I mean, Shanahan, who knows? Anyway, I think the point is, James, the writing was on the wall, especially with Mitch Marner. I know he's taking a lot of heat right now, but it was very clear at the end of last season that something had..."

"It felt like it was time, and you could kind of see it on his face."

"I think he thought he was going to get traded last year."

"That's true."

"I think that he was probably looking and waiting up until the no move kicked in and thinking, am I getting traded? Also, I don't know for sure because his camp is selective in who they talk to, but my understanding is that it didn't seem like he was 100% against it either."

"That is my understanding, yes. I mean, it's not for him. We've seen that more and more as time has gone on."

"This isn't working for him. The whole year, I'm there every day, I see it more. It just didn't look like he was enjoying himself anymore. He didn't look like he was as invested as he had been. I think he's just, to me, it just looks like someone who's beaten down by everything that's happened. It's hard, James.?

?I think we underrate some of this stuff. It's hard to play at home, number one. It's hard to play at home when you're a star player, and it's hard to play at home when you're not great at handling criticism and handling the spotlight.?

?And as all that stuff built up over playoffs and his inability to come up big in some of those moments, and the scrutiny increased, and obviously the contract was a big part of that.?

?He pays attention to everything. He and his camp pay attention to everything to such a degree. Marner's camp has been mad at me and blackballed me going back five or six years, and I have no idea why.?

?Then no one ever said to me, like, oh, I didn't like this thing you wrote. I think that our coverage of Marner has been largely positive, going way back to when he was drafted and when he first came in. I mean, his rookie season, he was phenomenal.?

?But there's such a sensitivity there. So there's all these feuds going on. And you hear about, he's got private security people that harass media people.?

?And there's really weird stuff that's going on. It's really strange things that go on with Marner. And sometimes I feel bad for him that he's in this...?

If you want to know who's saying what... the pod:

From The Leaf Report: A show about the Toronto Maple Leafs: Another lost year for the Maple Leafs, May 7, 2024
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-leaf-report-a-show-about-the-toronto-maple-leafs/id974288930?i=1000654843133

Like I?m hard on Marner for the on-ice lack of performance in the playoffs, and generally who cares about the media, but there are some amber to red flags here if these are substantiated.

Private security makes sense (carjacked last year), but to use them for attacking media he doesn?t like hearing from is pretty next level stuff.

 

[mr grieves]

I think sometimes people forget at the end of the day he, and every other athlete are human beings with emotions.

Agreed. And there's a whole range of human beings -- they run from cool, well-adjusted, mature to high-strung, maladjusted, immature. A lot of professional athletes are on the latter end of the spectrum.

 

[Bill_Berg]

I think sometimes people forget at the end of the day he, and every other athlete are human beings with emotions.

Agreed. And there's a whole range of human beings -- they run from cool, well-adjusted, mature to high-strung, maladjusted, immature. A lot of professional athletes are on the latter end of the spectrum.

Question is which is more inclined to winning.

 

[lamajama]

Paying guys off the charts to the detriment of everything else is a terrible plan.

Who was really paid off the charts? Not Matthews or Willy. Marner maybe a million too much? Too much, sure but not PLD, Huberdeau bad.

Marner (aka "a God") cannot contribute in the playoffs and is overpaid.

Matthews got top dollar and a short-term twice, no one has ever gotten paid so much on a shorter-term contract.

Tavares was #2 paid in the league only behind McDavid when signed.

Nylander got paid on projection, not on production (half a season at a career-high pace), Nylander's previous contract was higher than all his 60-point-peers.

good points but IMO, while a LOT of dough Matthews has earned his contracts and I'm not placing massive playoff blame only on him either.

Paying guys off the charts to the detriment of everything else is a terrible plan.

Who was really paid off the charts? Not Matthews or Willy. Marner maybe a million too much? Too much, sure but not PLD, Huberdeau bad.

Marner (aka "a God") cannot contribute in the playoffs and is overpaid.

Matthews got top dollar and a short-term twice, no one has ever gotten paid so much on a shorter-term contract.

Tavares was #2 paid in the league only behind McDavid when signed.

Nylander got paid on projection, not on production (half a season at a career-high pace), Nylander's previous contract was higher than all his 60-point-peers.

good points but IMO, while a LOT of dough Matthews has earned his contracts and I'm not placing massive playoff blame only on him either.

McDavid and MacKinnon don?t make the $?s Matthews makes and their contracts are longer term. I really don?t know why Matthews gets max money and short term? The Leafs don?t need to ?win? at signing contracts but they sure as hell don?t need to ?overpay? all their stars either.

I think the primary reason is yes, Matthews is smart enough to know Leafs will pay because they have the dough and he's been their best player in DECADES. If we were honest, (and understanding the risk in a career -ending injury), this is a pretty smart way to max his career earnings. His is also the latest mega-star contract with the Cap going up. IIRC his % of the Cap is not THAT far off those other 2. McDavid will ask for more obviously but in hockey no matter how much they deservedly should get, they simply can't get paid like that - as we well know with what the Leafs are going thru.

 

[cw]

Paying guys off the charts to the detriment of everything else is a terrible plan.

Who was really paid off the charts? Not Matthews or Willy. Marner maybe a million too much? Too much, sure but not PLD, Huberdeau bad.

Since he came into the league, Marner is 10th in NHL scoring.
Since signing the current contract, Marner is 7th in NHL scoring and 8th in ppg
The players in that rental district are getting the kind of dough Marner is.
Marner does something not all of them do: plays a responsible 200 foot game and helps on the PK.
If Marner is overpaid, I do not think it is by much - maybe a few hundred grand.

Marner is not a perfect player but he consistently does a lot of very good things at a high level.

In Leafs all-time career stats, Marner is 3rd in Leafs ppg, 5th in assists, 8th in scoring & 16th in goals. He's only 27 years old.

This cherry picking of game 5-7 playoff stats bothered me.
First of all, you don't get to games 5-7 if you aren't scoring in games 1-4.
Since he pulled on a Leafs jersey in 2016-17, the Leafs leading playoff scorer is ... Mitch Marner!!
With Leafs playoff scoring an issue, people want to get rid of their top playoff scorer to solve it? Doesn't make sense to me.

Since 2017, the Leafs scored 28 PP goals in the playoffs. Marner scored or assisted on 17 of them (61%). With a shift in the difference in the playoffs to special teams increasingly deciding the outcome, chucking the best or one of the best special teams guy(s) (he Pk's too) probably shouldn't be at the top of the list.

There's still a bunch to find out about what happened. I read today about how Tavares & Marner were the Pastrnak checking line with two thirds of their starts in the d-zone because Keefe didn't feel he had anyone else up to it (Kampf & Holmberg according to Keefe were not). Add in Matthews & Nylander injuries and the core 4 were neutralized for a hunk of the series.

I think that some of the over-reactions are emotional / irrational.

We have a window - it is half closed. They need to be careful about what they do.
If they could find a reliable, healthy goalie, the playoff roster as otherwise is would be a contender in my opinion. I hope the media rhetoric dies down trying to find a sacrificial Leafs player lamb for their readers/subscribers and cooler, smarter heads prevail.

 

[mr grieves]

I think sometimes people forget at the end of the day he, and every other athlete are human beings with emotions.

Agreed. And there's a whole range of human beings -- they run from cool, well-adjusted, mature to high-strung, maladjusted, immature. A lot of professional athletes are on the latter end of the spectrum.

Question is which is more inclined to winning.

Probably takes all sorts?

I've said I think they should keep Marner, but only retain him on their terms.

 

[cabber24]

Paying guys off the charts to the detriment of everything else is a terrible plan.

Who was really paid off the charts? Not Matthews or Willy. Marner maybe a million too much? Too much, sure but not PLD, Huberdeau bad.

Since he came into the league, Marner is 10th in NHL scoring.
Since signing the current contract, Marner is 7th in NHL scoring and 8th in ppg
The players in that rental district are getting the kind of dough Marner is.
Marner does something not all of them do: plays a responsible 200 foot game and helps on the PK.
If Marner is overpaid, I do not think it is by much - maybe a few hundred grand.

Marner is not a perfect player but he consistently does a lot of very good things at a high level.

In Leafs all-time career stats, Marner is 3rd in Leafs ppg, 5th in assists, 8th in scoring & 16th in goals. He's only 27 years old.

This cherry picking of game 5-7 playoff stats bothered me.
First of all, you don't get to games 5-7 if you aren't scoring in games 1-4.
Since he pulled on a Leafs jersey in 2016-17, the Leafs leading playoff scorer is ... Mitch Marner!!
With Leafs playoff scoring an issue, people want to get rid of their top playoff scorer to solve it? Doesn't make sense to me.

Since 2017, the Leafs scored 28 PP goals in the playoffs. Marner scored or assisted on 17 of them (61%). With a shift in the difference in the playoffs to special teams increasingly deciding the outcome, chucking the best or one of the best special teams guy(s) (he Pk's too) probably shouldn't be at the top of the list.

There's still a bunch to find out about what happened. I read today about how Tavares & Marner were the Pastrnak checking line with two thirds of their starts in the d-zone because Keefe didn't feel he had anyone else up to it (Kampf & Holmberg according to Keefe were not). Add in Matthews & Nylander injuries and the core 4 were neutralized for a hunk of the series.

I think that some of the over-reactions are emotional / irrational.

We have a window - it is half closed. They need to be careful about what they do.
If they could find a reliable, healthy goalie, the playoff roster as otherwise is would be a contender in my opinion. I hope the media rhetoric dies down trying to find a sacrificial Leafs player lamb for their readers/subscribers and cooler, smarter heads prevail.

It would be irrational to give Marner more money. Yes, he?s good regular season player? who cares if he?s awful in the playoffs (including the PK). Don?t care about his regular season stats. I care about $11M roster player disappearing annually when it matters most.

 

[Joe S.]

I think sometimes people forget at the end of the day he, and every other athlete are human beings with emotions.

They are but clearly they cause issues for some more than others. Marner absolutely cannot stand criticism well, at least not publicly. I don't doubt for a second that it was mostly because of him Sheldon had to walk back his comments when he called out the stars. It's definitely not an issue for Willy, just ignore the frigging press.

I?m not disputing any of that, but if he can?t handle any type of criticism, then maybe it is in his best interest to move to a team with less scrutiny and press coverage. He?d likely thrive there.

And like you mentioned, Nylander is at the opposite end of that spectrum and is tailor made for this market. So is Matthews it seems.