Armchair GM 2018-2019

[Phileas Fogg]

But I mean it's not like we're talking about a stay at home defenceman here. I'd argue that Karlsson would have an even bigger impact on the teams "scoring talent" and their ability to "overmatch offence" as Nylander would.

Completely agree with that. Especially now that you can stack a scoring/offense threat across a position with less competing minutes.

 

[Bullfrog]

I see championships being won consistently on Scoring Talent + forward depth (overmatching offense) + team defense + good goalie. So I don't see the pressing need to spend super heavily on a defenseman. Open to being convinced otherwise though.

But I mean it's not like we're talking about a stay at home defenceman here. I'd argue that Karlsson would have an even bigger impact on the teams "scoring talent" and their ability to "overmatch offence" as Nylander would.

<internet hug>

I mean, seriously, we're talking about Erik freakin' Karlsson here. I love Nylander (he's my favourite of the big three), but I'd send him packing with a 1st rounder in his pocket in an instant if Karlsson on a long-term contract was coming the other way.

 

[Coco-puffs]

Note that the Penguins couldn't repeat their Cup winning ways with Crosby-Malkin until there was additional elite scoring threat from the wings (Kessel), i.e. 3-line depth.

Sure, but Kessel was kind of replacing Neal though.

And if we're using the Penguins big-3 as a template to copy, then Tavares - Matthews - Marner would be my preference over Tavares - Matthews - Nylander.

If it's Dubas' intent to keep all 4 of them, then indeed a $11m Karlsson is not in the cards.  If we look at the Capitals roster, other than 68 points out of Carlson, the defense doesn't really wow you...just like the 2016 and 2017 Penguins D corps.

I'm sort of thinking that the Leafs have sort of doubled down on a Letang or a Carlson, in Rielly and Gardiner combined.

I think you are seriously under-rating Orlov-Niskanen.  Their point totals don't wow you, but watch them play, especially Orlov, and you'd be ECSTATIC to have them.  They do all the heavy lifting so that Carlson doesn't have to face the other teams top guys.

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

Is someone making the claim that having him on the team will hurt the Leafs' chances in the next few years?

Unless I'm misreading an argument yeah I think there are claims that Nylander would help the team win a Cup more than Karlsson would, even in the near-future.

Karlsson would help us win, no doubt; Karlsson is a player I want on our team, but not if it costs Nylander. I believe keeping Nylander would help us win more Cups.

For me it's not just a Nylander vs. Karlsson comparison, as it's more a Nylander + something with that cap space vs Karlsson - additional acquisition cost, as well as my personal build philosophy and playstyle preference. Elements of what Karlsson brings to the table I'd argue we already have in Rielly + Gardiner + Dermott, just not on the right side yet.

I see championships being won consistently on Scoring Talent + forward depth (overmatching offense) + team defense + good goalie. So I don't see the pressing need to spend super heavily on a defenseman. Open to being convinced otherwise though.

 

[bustaheims]

Not that it matters, but...

https://twitter.com/kathryntappen/status/1032699230178095104?s=21

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I figured you'd be the one to point that out.

I am known far and wide for thinking arguments should be made in good faith. 

You think Nylander COULD be one of the best forwards in the game?

I suppose anyone COULD be one of the best forwards in the game. But he has shown no signs to even being one of the BEST young players in the game.

I didn't make the case but I think that if you look at his numbers in proper context, especially as a function of ice time and 5v5, I wouldn't agree that he hasn't shown signs of being one of the better young players in the game, especially given that "one of" is a pretty loose term without a set limit.

It certainly wouldn't surprise me to see Nylander become a PPG type player who can play any forward position responsibly. The material difference between that and what Zee said seems pretty slight to me.

Well if we're going to have these discussions in good faith and all, the original point was one of the BEST, not one of the BETTER. But carry on.

 

[Zee]

I'm taking names, and when Nylander scores the Cup winning goal next spring I'm coming after some of the people in this thread.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I'm taking names, and when Nylander scores the Cup winning goal next spring I'm coming after some of the people in this thread.

Heh. One can only hope.




That he scores a Stanley Cup winning goal(not that you come after us).

And it won't be him. It'll be Hainsey or someone of that ilk

 

[herman]

I'm taking names, and when Nylander scores the Cup winning goal next spring I'm coming after some of the people in this thread.

Heh. One can only hope.




That he scores a Stanley Cup winning goal(not that you come after us).

And it won't be him. It'll be Hainsey or someone of that ilk

Hyman.

 

[Kin]

Well if we're going to have these discussions in good faith and all, the original point was one of the BEST, not one of the BETTER.

Synonyms are a tricky business.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

Synonyms are a tricky business.

Devious.

 

[hockeyfan1]

I'm taking names, and when Nylander scores the Cup winning goal next spring I'm coming after some of the people in this thread.

:'(

 

[Bullfrog]

I'm taking names, and when Nylander scores the Cup winning goal next spring I'm coming after some of the people in this thread.

Nothing would make me happier than to see that happen. As I stated before, he's my favorite of the big-3.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Nothing would make me happier than to see that happen. As I stated before, he's my favorite of the big-3.

Yeah, I own a Nylander jersey. It's the first jersey I bought since back when Darcy Tucker was good.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Well if we're going to have these discussions in good faith and all, the original point was one of the BEST, not one of the BETTER.

Synonyms are a tricky business.

Not sure I'd consider them synonyms but carry on being "that guy"

 

[Frank E]

Note that the Penguins couldn't repeat their Cup winning ways with Crosby-Malkin until there was additional elite scoring threat from the wings (Kessel), i.e. 3-line depth.

Sure, but Kessel was kind of replacing Neal though.

And if we're using the Penguins big-3 as a template to copy, then Tavares - Matthews - Marner would be my preference over Tavares - Matthews - Nylander.

If it's Dubas' intent to keep all 4 of them, then indeed a $11m Karlsson is not in the cards.  If we look at the Capitals roster, other than 68 points out of Carlson, the defense doesn't really wow you...just like the 2016 and 2017 Penguins D corps.

I'm sort of thinking that the Leafs have sort of doubled down on a Letang or a Carlson, in Rielly and Gardiner combined.

I think you are seriously under-rating Orlov-Niskanen.  Their point totals don't wow you, but watch them play, especially Orlov, and you'd be ECSTATIC to have them.  They do all the heavy lifting so that Carlson doesn't have to face the other teams top guys.

Look, I hardly watched the Cup finals, so I really don't know.  I was just going by their statistical data, which I understand doesn't paint the whole picture.

I think my point was that the teams that have won the Presidents Trophy lately have had a stud back there.  The Leafs have a couple of very good defensemen, but they do not have an elite one. 

I don't think Karlsson is in the cards for the Leafs, but trading away somebody like Nylander + for an elite defender makes a fair bit of sense to me.  I, like you, watched a lot of Leaf hockey last season.  Now that they've signed Tavares, I think there's a pretty good argument to be made that their forward group might be the highest octane bunch in the league, at least on paper...I'm still convinced that they would benefit by trading a component out of that bunch, from a position of strength, to benefit from an addition to a current area of relative weakness, the defense group.

 

[Coco-puffs]

Look, I hardly watched the Cup finals, so I really don't know.  I was just going by their statistical data, which I understand doesn't paint the whole picture.

I think my point was that the teams that have won the Presidents Trophy lately have had a stud back there.  The Leafs have a couple of very good defensemen, but they do not have an elite one. 

I don't think Karlsson is in the cards for the Leafs, but trading away somebody like Nylander + for an elite defender makes a fair bit of sense to me.  I, like you, watched a lot of Leaf hockey last season.  Now that they've signed Tavares, I think there's a pretty good argument to be made that their forward group might be the highest octane bunch in the league, at least on paper...I'm still convinced that they would benefit by trading a component out of that bunch, from a position of strength, to benefit from an addition to a current area of relative weakness, the defense group.

Oh, I'm not opposed to trading either of Nylander or Marner for an elite RHD.  I think most people are sick of the trade Nylander thing because often people are just saying for a top 4 D. 

Seriously, this is my list of D-men I'd trade either of those guys for without blinking an eye:

Erik Karlsson (with an extension)
PK Subban
Seth Jones
Charlie McAvoy

Here's the list of guys I'd strongly consider as well, but would hesitate and really have to think about:

Doughty
Klinberg
Parayko
Hamilton
Ellis (he was close to being put in the group above because his next contract is great)

Considering the likelyhood that any of those guys becomes available, I'd expect Nylander and Marner to be Leafs for a long time.

 

[Frank E]

Look, I hardly watched the Cup finals, so I really don't know.  I was just going by their statistical data, which I understand doesn't paint the whole picture.

I think my point was that the teams that have won the Presidents Trophy lately have had a stud back there.  The Leafs have a couple of very good defensemen, but they do not have an elite one. 

I don't think Karlsson is in the cards for the Leafs, but trading away somebody like Nylander + for an elite defender makes a fair bit of sense to me.  I, like you, watched a lot of Leaf hockey last season.  Now that they've signed Tavares, I think there's a pretty good argument to be made that their forward group might be the highest octane bunch in the league, at least on paper...I'm still convinced that they would benefit by trading a component out of that bunch, from a position of strength, to benefit from an addition to a current area of relative weakness, the defense group.

Oh, I'm not opposed to trading either of Nylander or Marner for an elite RHD.  I think most people are sick of the trade Nylander thing because often people are just saying for a top 4 D. 

Seriously, this is my list of D-men I'd trade either of those guys for without blinking an eye:

Erik Karlsson (with an extension)
PK Subban
Seth Jones
Charlie McAvoy

Here's the list of guys I'd strongly consider as well, but would hesitate and really have to think about:

Doughty
Klinberg
Parayko
Hamilton
Ellis (he was close to being put in the group above because his next contract is great)

Considering the likelyhood that any of those guys becomes available, I'd expect Nylander and Marner to be Leafs for a long time.

Given St. Louis' defense situation, it's super unlikely, but I'd add Pietrangelo to that list, even though he's only got 2 years left on his deal.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

Oh, I'm not opposed to trading either of Nylander or Marner for an elite RHD.  I think most people are sick of the trade Nylander thing because often people are just saying for a top 4 D. 

Seriously, this is my list of D-men I'd trade either of those guys for without blinking an eye:

Erik Karlsson (with an extension)
PK Subban
Seth Jones
Charlie McAvoy

Here's the list of guys I'd strongly consider as well, but would hesitate and really have to think about:

Doughty
Klinberg
Parayko
Hamilton
Ellis (he was close to being put in the group above because his next contract is great)

Considering the likelyhood that any of those guys becomes available, I'd expect Nylander and Marner to be Leafs for a long time.

I'd consider Nylander for a couple options in that second group, but not Marner. I don't think the two are interchangable.

 

[Coco-puffs]

Oh, I'm not opposed to trading either of Nylander or Marner for an elite RHD.  I think most people are sick of the trade Nylander thing because often people are just saying for a top 4 D. 

Seriously, this is my list of D-men I'd trade either of those guys for without blinking an eye:

Erik Karlsson (with an extension)
PK Subban
Seth Jones
Charlie McAvoy

Here's the list of guys I'd strongly consider as well, but would hesitate and really have to think about:

Doughty
Klinberg
Parayko
Hamilton
Ellis (he was close to being put in the group above because his next contract is great)

Considering the likelyhood that any of those guys becomes available, I'd expect Nylander and Marner to be Leafs for a long time.

I'd consider Nylander for a couple options in that second group, but not Marner. I don't think the two are interchangable.

Well, my take on it is up until last years playoffs they were very much interchangeable.  Marner had a fantastic series while Nylander kinda disappeared so I understand that sentiment.  But I'm not sure that kind of recency bias doesn't cloud alot of peoples judgement about the two players.

I'm also HUGE on Marner- to the point his jersey is the one I'd buy today, so I'd rather trade Nylander but I'll fully admit that is fandom speaking and its not objective.  There is little that separates them overall aside from that small sample.  The tables could easily turn next season.