Ashton up, Holland down

[bustaheims]

Since this thread is sort of relevant to Carlyle's insistence on playing Orr....13 goalies in NHL history have better PPG numbers than Orr.  Three of which in more games played than Orr.  From PPP: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlBZxpXinYkCdDJlWlc4MUI5Wm13cE54dmJrTklva3c&usp=drive_web#gid=0

That's just...

There are 23 goalies who have more points than him this season, and one who has more goals.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I would love to buy into the idea that this move was Nonis sending a message to Carlyle, but I just can't. It doesn't make any sense. You're not going to play a good enough enough, well fine now you can't play him at all! As Potvin brought up, the guy got less ice-time than FML and Orr and barely played when the team was trailing and needed a goal. To me it's clear Carlyle just didn't feel like he was a fit on the team and told Nonis that he needed a player better suited for the 4th line. And Nonis obliged.

 

[ZBBM]

All those tweets from Brady and the supposed message-sending from Nonis to RC strike me as ridiculous. This isn't freaking N Korea where you have to walk on eggshells to avoid offending Supreme Leader Carlyle.

Here's s radical idea: if Nonis wants to send a message, why doesn't he just walk into the coach's office and say you're going to start playing Holland or else.

"Management is going to start taking back the team"?  Good God.

Word is they already did that in early December about Rielly and Holland. It worked for a while, but, obviously, with Holland, it's not working anymore. I'm confident in believing that this move is Nonis saying to Carlyle that this is his last chance to turn things around doing it his way.

I understand that the GM's role is not to micromanagement game-to-game lineup decisions, nor to decide icetime, but honestly I've always had the feeling that Carlyle has Nonis under his thumb rather than the other way round.  When I read comments like the management needs to take back the team, my jaw drops open like a Neanderguy.

Your explanation makes some sense but it's pathetic if true.

 

[bustaheims]

Your explanation makes some sense but it's pathetic if true.

Oh, I'm not debating that. Nonis definitely needs to grow a spine or some other appendages.

 

[ZBBM]

Your explanation makes some sense but it's pathetic if true.

Oh, I'm not debating that. Nonis definitely needs to grow a spine or some other appendages.

I haven't read TO media on the Leafs all year, but I would expect that Cox would be all over this angle in his most indignant and acerbic Coxian fashion.

 

[L K]

All those tweets from Brady and the supposed message-sending from Nonis to RC strike me as ridiculous. This isn't freaking N Korea where you have to walk on eggshells to avoid offending Supreme Leader Carlyle.

Here's s radical idea: if Nonis wants to send a message, why doesn't he just walk into the coach's office and say you're going to start playing Holland or else.

"Management is going to start taking back the team"?  Good God.

Word is they already did that in early December about Rielly and Holland. It worked for a while, but, obviously, with Holland, it's not working anymore. I'm confident in believing that this move is Nonis saying to Carlyle that this is his last chance to turn things around doing it his way.

I understand that the GM's role is not to micromanagement game-to-game lineup decisions, nor to decide icetime, but honestly I've always had the feeling that Carlyle has Nonis under his thumb rather than the other way round.  When I read comments like the management needs to take back the team, my jaw drops open like a Neanderguy.

Your explanation makes some sense but it's pathetic if true.

I don't know...I think that should be how the team is run.  The GM consults with the coach in the offseason to bring in players, who to draft, which prospects deserve a roster spot etc.  But once the season starts, the roster should be up to the discretion of the coach unless you are clearly in a rebuild situation where prospect development is the clear priority.
I don't like the idea of a GM meddling with lineup decisions.  If they want to do that, step down on to the bench so you can be held accountable for screwups rather than using the coach as a scapegoat.  (And with that said, Fire Carlyle please).

 

[OldTimeHockey]

All those tweets from Brady and the supposed message-sending from Nonis to RC strike me as ridiculous. This isn't freaking N Korea where you have to walk on eggshells to avoid offending Supreme Leader Carlyle.

Here's s radical idea: if Nonis wants to send a message, why doesn't he just walk into the coach's office and say you're going to start playing Holland or else.

"Management is going to start taking back the team"?  Good God.

Word is they already did that in early December about Rielly and Holland. It worked for a while, but, obviously, with Holland, it's not working anymore. I'm confident in believing that this move is Nonis saying to Carlyle that this is his last chance to turn things around doing it his way.

I understand that the GM's role is not to micromanagement game-to-game lineup decisions, nor to decide icetime, but honestly I've always had the feeling that Carlyle has Nonis under his thumb rather than the other way round.  When I read comments like the management needs to take back the team, my jaw drops open like a Neanderguy.

Your explanation makes some sense but it's pathetic if true.

I don't know...I think that should be how the team is run.  The GM consults with the coach in the offseason to bring in players, who to draft, which prospects deserve a roster spot etc.  But once the season starts, the roster should be up to the discretion of the coach unless you are clearly in a rebuild situation where prospect development is the clear priority.
I don't like the idea of a GM meddling with lineup decisions.  If they want to do that, step down on to the bench so you can be held accountable for screwups rather than using the coach as a scapegoat.  (And with that said, Fire Carlyle please).

That's exactly how I feel L K.

If Carlyle isn't coaching the way you want him to coach, you fire him. Other than that, the management should not be involved in the on ice decisions of the team.

 

[ZBBM]

All those tweets from Brady and the supposed message-sending from Nonis to RC strike me as ridiculous. This isn't freaking N Korea where you have to walk on eggshells to avoid offending Supreme Leader Carlyle.

Here's s radical idea: if Nonis wants to send a message, why doesn't he just walk into the coach's office and say you're going to start playing Holland or else.

"Management is going to start taking back the team"?  Good God.

Word is they already did that in early December about Rielly and Holland. It worked for a while, but, obviously, with Holland, it's not working anymore. I'm confident in believing that this move is Nonis saying to Carlyle that this is his last chance to turn things around doing it his way.

I understand that the GM's role is not to micromanagement game-to-game lineup decisions, nor to decide icetime, but honestly I've always had the feeling that Carlyle has Nonis under his thumb rather than the other way round.  When I read comments like the management needs to take back the team, my jaw drops open like a Neanderguy.

Your explanation makes some sense but it's pathetic if true.

I don't know...I think that should be how the team is run.  The GM consults with the coach in the offseason to bring in players, who to draft, which prospects deserve a roster spot etc.  But once the season starts, the roster should be up to the discretion of the coach unless you are clearly in a rebuild situation where prospect development is the clear priority.
I don't like the idea of a GM meddling with lineup decisions.  If they want to do that, step down on to the bench so you can be held accountable for screwups rather than using the coach as a scapegoat.  (And with that said, Fire Carlyle please).

That's exactly how I feel L K.

If Carlyle isn't coaching the way you want him to coach, you fire him. Other than that, the management should not be involved in the on ice decisions of the team.

That's fine in theory, but if the GM goes out and trades for a player and then the coach doesn't use him (and 4:30 of icetime is essentially not using him), then I don't see anything wrong in the GM going in and telling him, we got you this asset, use it.  The idea of sending Holland down to take away a team asset so as to send a message of disapproval to the coach is so convoluted and bas-ackwards that it's ludicrous.

 

[bustaheims]

I don't like the idea of a GM meddling with lineup decisions.  If they want to do that, step down on to the bench so you can be held accountable for screwups rather than using the coach as a scapegoat.  (And with that said, Fire Carlyle please).

When things are going this badly, I really don't think it's inappropriate for the GM to step and say "This isn't working. Maybe you should try this." When things are going well, the GM should stay away, but, when things fall off a cliff like this, they have every right to come in and have an influence on how their team is utilized.

 

[Highlander]

This is the lineup I would like to see on our forwards, four lines that can skate and score with more balance on time for all the lines. 

Lupul      Bozak    Kessel
JVR   Holland  Leivo
Raymond Bolland Clarkson
Kulimon  Kadri  Ashton

McClement (Penelty Kill, defensive specialist)

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I don't like the idea of a GM meddling with lineup decisions.  If they want to do that, step down on to the bench so you can be held accountable for screwups rather than using the coach as a scapegoat.  (And with that said, Fire Carlyle please).

When things are going this badly, I really don't think it's inappropriate for the GM to step and say "This isn't working. Maybe you should try this." When things are going well, the GM should stay away, but, when things fall off a cliff like this, they have every right to come in and have an influence on how their team is utilized.

They have every right to come in and fire Carlyle...or to let Carlyle know "Get your sh*t together or you're out the door" but I don't think in any circumstance should management be telling the coach how to coach the team. It becomes a Jerry Jones situation.

Ownership shouldn't screw with the Managers and Managers shouldn't mess with the coaches. They were hired for their specific skills. If you don't like the skills they're bringing to the table, you let them go.

I'm sure they have meetings to discuss what's going on and how problems will be rectified but each of them has a job to do.

 

[louisstamos]

This is the lineup I would like to see on our forwards, four lines that can skate and score with more balance on time for all the lines. 

Lupul      Bozak    Kessel
JVR   Holland  Leivo
Raymond Bolland Clarkson
Kulimon  Kadri  Ashton

McClement (Penelty Kill, defensive specialist)

I'm pretty sure you can't dress 13 forwards.

Also, at this point, if they're both healthy, I prefer D'Amigo to Ashton in the bottom 6.  He's got great wheels and good hustle.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

You can dress 13 forwards but then can only dress 5 dmen or 1 goalie.

 

[Highlander]

D'Amigo yes forgot one of my favourites. I still want to ice the most talented skaters and scorers across the board, we can let Leivo develop for another year.

 

[bustaheims]

You can dress 13 forwards but then can only dress 5 dmen or 1 goalie.

The lineup requirements are 18 skaters and 2 goalies.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

You can dress 13 forwards but then can only dress 5 dmen or 1 goalie.

The lineup requirements are 18 skaters and 2 goalies.

My bad.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

@reporterchris

Carter Ashton will play centre for the #leafs. Randy Carlyle says Peter Holland was demoted because he wasn't fit to be a fourth-liner.

 

[Joe S.]

@reporterchris

Carter Ashton will play centre for the #leafs. Randy Carlyle says Peter Holland was demoted because he wasn't fit to be a fourth-liner.

I hate this season.

 

[bustaheims]

@reporterchris

Carter Ashton will play centre for the #leafs. Randy Carlyle says Peter Holland was demoted because he wasn't fit to be a fourth-liner.

Well, of course that's going to be the "official" reason.

 

[Bullfrog]

@reporterchris

Carter Ashton will play centre for the #leafs. Randy Carlyle says Peter Holland was demoted because he wasn't fit to be a fourth-liner.

So, instead of putting him on the third line and playing McClement on the 4th, the solution is to demote him to the minors?

Or, I don't know, maybe play the forth line more?