Auston Matthews

[Arn]

Siegel debating that Matthews is already the Greatest Leaf of all Time

https://theathletic.com/3376113/2022/06/22/auston-matthews-greatest-maple-leaf/

(Behind paywall, but I know we've subscribers here)

Enjoyed the comments suggesting that because the LEAFS haven't won a playoff round, Matthews isn't a great PLAYER.

 

[Zee]

Siegel debating that Matthews is already the Greatest Leaf of all Time

https://theathletic.com/3376113/2022/06/22/auston-matthews-greatest-maple-leaf/

(Behind paywall, but I know we've subscribers here)

Enjoyed the comments suggesting that because the LEAFS haven't won a playoff round, Matthews isn't a great PLAYER.

I don't think it's much of a debate.  He's already won the Calder, 2 Rockets, the Hart and Lindsay.  Individually he's as good as any Leaf that's ever put on the sweater.  Team success...well...

 

[Kin]

A player's greatness involves two things. How good he is at the peak of his abilities and how he is at maintaining that level over the course of his career. Matthews is either already tops in the first one or very close. The second is the question I hope we'll get to see going forward.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Siegel debating that Matthews is already the Greatest Leaf of all Time

https://theathletic.com/3376113/2022/06/22/auston-matthews-greatest-maple-leaf/

(Behind paywall, but I know we've subscribers here)

Enjoyed the comments suggesting that because the LEAFS haven't won a playoff round, Matthews isn't a great PLAYER.

I don't think it's much of a debate.  He's already won the Calder, 2 Rockets, the Hart and Lindsay.  Individually he's as good as any Leaf that's ever put on the sweater.  Team success...well...

Are we talking the most skilled player or the greatest player? In my world, those two are not equal. Matthews may very well be the most skilled, but I wouldn't put him in the upper echelon overall for "greatness" just yet.

 

[Bullfrog]

Are we talking the most skilled player or the greatest player? In my world, those two are not equal. Matthews may very well be the most skilled, but I wouldn't put him in the upper echelon overall for "greatness" just yet.

I can somewhat understand not committing to calling him the greatest Leaf ever, but to suggest he's not in the upper echelon is absurd.

 

[Arn]

Siegel debating that Matthews is already the Greatest Leaf of all Time

https://theathletic.com/3376113/2022/06/22/auston-matthews-greatest-maple-leaf/

(Behind paywall, but I know we've subscribers here)

Enjoyed the comments suggesting that because the LEAFS haven't won a playoff round, Matthews isn't a great PLAYER.

I don't think it's much of a debate.  He's already won the Calder, 2 Rockets, the Hart and Lindsay.  Individually he's as good as any Leaf that's ever put on the sweater.  Team success...well...

I tend to agree. He?s the best player I?ve seen in a leafs sweater since I started watching in the late 1990s. The only other one in that era is include would be Sundin but I think Matthews has already surpassed him.

I take Niks point on longevity and I too hope to see ~10 more years of him in that leafs sweater doing more if this. But his 6 years so far are just insane when you look at the numbers. Only one goal behind Bossy in that time frame, for example.

That 51 goals in 50 games was just staggering to be able to experience as a fan.

 

[ZBBM]

Siegel debating that Matthews is already the Greatest Leaf of all Time

https://theathletic.com/3376113/2022/06/22/auston-matthews-greatest-maple-leaf/

(Behind paywall, but I know we've subscribers here)

Enjoyed the comments suggesting that because the LEAFS haven't won a playoff round, Matthews isn't a great PLAYER.

I don't think it's much of a debate.  He's already won the Calder, 2 Rockets, the Hart and Lindsay.  Individually he's as good as any Leaf that's ever put on the sweater.  Team success...well...

I tend to agree. He?s the best player I?ve seen in a leafs sweater since I started watching in the late 1990s. The only other one in that era is include would be Sundin but I think Matthews has already surpassed him.

I take Niks point on longevity and I too hope to see ~10 more years of him in that leafs sweater doing more if this. But his 6 years so far are just insane when you look at the numbers. Only one goal behind Bossy in that time frame, for example.

That 51 goals in 50 games was just staggering to be able to experience as a fan.

I don't want to get into a comparison of what Sundin might have accomplished with better (much better) linemates, not playing in the Clutch and Grab Era (where every game was "playoff hockey"), etc.

But it's hard to argue with all that hardware Auston's won before the age of 25.

 

[Zee]

Looking at all the reporters Hart votes is quite enlightening. Not 1 writer from Montreal had Matthews higher than 3rd.  One didn't even have him top 5.  I get being a homer but c'mon  ;D

Can you guys see this?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y6TrcU4elIn2JSgE8tOybSK_fLjN8C0-/view?usp=sharing

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Are we talking the most skilled player or the greatest player? In my world, those two are not equal. Matthews may very well be the most skilled, but I wouldn't put him in the upper echelon overall for "greatness" just yet.

I can somewhat understand not committing to calling him the greatest Leaf ever, but to suggest he's not in the upper echelon is absurd.

Again, it depends what you think it takes to be gain access to the upper echelon. If you're just looking at pure skill and a couple good seasons, he's in there. But if you're looking at complete careers, there's quite a few that I think have contributed more to the Toronto Maple Leafs than Matthews.

Players like Borje Salming, Darryl Sittler, Dave Keon, Frank Mahovilich, Doug Gilmour, George Armstrong, Johnny Bower, Red Kelly, Ted Kennedy, Syl Apps in my opinion have contributed more to the organization as a whole than Matthews has. Matthews certainly has the potential to do so, and seems to be on the trajectory to be in the top few, but he's not there yet in my opinion.

 

[Guilt Trip]

Looking at all the reporters Hart votes is quite enlightening. Not 1 writer from Montreal had Matthews higher than 3rd.  One didn't even have him top 5.  I get being a homer but c'mon  ;D

Can you guys see this?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y6TrcU4elIn2JSgE8tOybSK_fLjN8C0-/view?usp=sharing

Craig Button had him 5th! I'm sorry but if anyone had him lower then 3rd shouldn't be allowed to vote in the future.

 

[Bill_Berg]

Looking at all the reporters Hart votes is quite enlightening. Not 1 writer from Montreal had Matthews higher than 3rd.  One didn't even have him top 5.  I get being a homer but c'mon  ;D

Can you guys see this?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y6TrcU4elIn2JSgE8tOybSK_fLjN8C0-/view?usp=sharing

I don't think it's just homerism, I think it's a malicious attempt to block the award from Matthews.

 

[Bullfrog]

Are we talking the most skilled player or the greatest player? In my world, those two are not equal. Matthews may very well be the most skilled, but I wouldn't put him in the upper echelon overall for "greatness" just yet.

I can somewhat understand not committing to calling him the greatest Leaf ever, but to suggest he's not in the upper echelon is absurd.

Again, it depends what you think it takes to be gain access to the upper echelon. If you're just looking at pure skill and a couple good seasons, he's in there. But if you're looking at complete careers, there's quite a few that I think have contributed more to the Toronto Maple Leafs than Matthews.

Players like Borje Salming, Darryl Sittler, Dave Keon, Frank Mahovilich, Doug Gilmour, George Armstrong, Johnny Bower, Red Kelly, Ted Kennedy, Syl Apps in my opinion have contributed more to the organization as a whole than Matthews has. Matthews certainly has the potential to do so, and seems to be on the trajectory to be in the top few, but he's not there yet in my opinion.

Gilmour: 392 games as a Leaf (1 Selke)
Matthews: 409 games as a Leaf (2 Richard, 1 Lindsay, 1 Hart)

Matthews led the team to its best season ever. 

Gilmour: LEGEND!. Matthews......potentially in the upper echelon?? ?\_(?)_/?

 

[Bill_Berg]

Are we talking the most skilled player or the greatest player? In my world, those two are not equal. Matthews may very well be the most skilled, but I wouldn't put him in the upper echelon overall for "greatness" just yet.

I can somewhat understand not committing to calling him the greatest Leaf ever, but to suggest he's not in the upper echelon is absurd.

Again, it depends what you think it takes to be gain access to the upper echelon. If you're just looking at pure skill and a couple good seasons, he's in there. But if you're looking at complete careers, there's quite a few that I think have contributed more to the Toronto Maple Leafs than Matthews.

Players like Borje Salming, Darryl Sittler, Dave Keon, Frank Mahovilich, Doug Gilmour, George Armstrong, Johnny Bower, Red Kelly, Ted Kennedy, Syl Apps in my opinion have contributed more to the organization as a whole than Matthews has. Matthews certainly has the potential to do so, and seems to be on the trajectory to be in the top few, but he's not there yet in my opinion.

Gilmour: 392 games as a Leaf (1 Selke)
Matthews: 409 games as a Leaf (2 Richard, 1 Lindsay, 1 Hart)

Matthews led the team to its best season ever. 

Gilmour: LEGEND!. Matthews......potentially in the upper echelon?? ?\_(?)_/?

While I don't agree with it, the iconic moments are really what drive many people's thinking. That Gilmour wrap-around goal against St. Louis could be his only goal and he's a legend. Look at Foligno and Borschevsky. We all remember them!

 

[Guilt Trip]

Are we talking the most skilled player or the greatest player? In my world, those two are not equal. Matthews may very well be the most skilled, but I wouldn't put him in the upper echelon overall for "greatness" just yet.

I can somewhat understand not committing to calling him the greatest Leaf ever, but to suggest he's not in the upper echelon is absurd.

Again, it depends what you think it takes to be gain access to the upper echelon. If you're just looking at pure skill and a couple good seasons, he's in there. But if you're looking at complete careers, there's quite a few that I think have contributed more to the Toronto Maple Leafs than Matthews.

Players like Borje Salming, Darryl Sittler, Dave Keon, Frank Mahovilich, Doug Gilmour, George Armstrong, Johnny Bower, Red Kelly, Ted Kennedy, Syl Apps in my opinion have contributed more to the organization as a whole than Matthews has. Matthews certainly has the potential to do so, and seems to be on the trajectory to be in the top few, but he's not there yet in my opinion.

Gilmour: 392 games as a Leaf (1 Selke)
Matthews: 409 games as a Leaf (2 Richard, 1 Lindsay, 1 Hart)

Matthews led the team to its best season ever. 

Gilmour: LEGEND!. Matthews......potentially in the upper echelon?? ?\_(?)_/?

Have to agree with you. What we are witnessing is something we may never see again. Matthews is arguably the best goal scorer in Leafs history. He's already 9th all time. He's #1 in G/Gm, 2nd in Pts/Gm just behind Gilmour. Playoff success has def aided in the legend of Gilmour and I'm not taking away from him. He was awesome. Matthews is awesome as well and is in that category as well.

 

[Joe S.]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1b3LX970_5RrQd6Voj6g8PHouT5mt47sQ/view?usp=drivesdk

Spector had Matthews as 5th on his ballot. Ok there champ.

 

[Joe S.]

Are we talking the most skilled player or the greatest player? In my world, those two are not equal. Matthews may very well be the most skilled, but I wouldn't put him in the upper echelon overall for "greatness" just yet.

I can somewhat understand not committing to calling him the greatest Leaf ever, but to suggest he's not in the upper echelon is absurd.

Again, it depends what you think it takes to be gain access to the upper echelon. If you're just looking at pure skill and a couple good seasons, he's in there. But if you're looking at complete careers, there's quite a few that I think have contributed more to the Toronto Maple Leafs than Matthews.

Players like Borje Salming, Darryl Sittler, Dave Keon, Frank Mahovilich, Doug Gilmour, George Armstrong, Johnny Bower, Red Kelly, Ted Kennedy, Syl Apps in my opinion have contributed more to the organization as a whole than Matthews has. Matthews certainly has the potential to do so, and seems to be on the trajectory to be in the top few, but he's not there yet in my opinion.

While I very strongly disagree with everything you said there, the fact that you don?t include Sundin is hilarious.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Are we talking the most skilled player or the greatest player? In my world, those two are not equal. Matthews may very well be the most skilled, but I wouldn't put him in the upper echelon overall for "greatness" just yet.

I can somewhat understand not committing to calling him the greatest Leaf ever, but to suggest he's not in the upper echelon is absurd.

Again, it depends what you think it takes to be gain access to the upper echelon. If you're just looking at pure skill and a couple good seasons, he's in there. But if you're looking at complete careers, there's quite a few that I think have contributed more to the Toronto Maple Leafs than Matthews.

Players like Borje Salming, Darryl Sittler, Dave Keon, Frank Mahovilich, Doug Gilmour, George Armstrong, Johnny Bower, Red Kelly, Ted Kennedy, Syl Apps in my opinion have contributed more to the organization as a whole than Matthews has. Matthews certainly has the potential to do so, and seems to be on the trajectory to be in the top few, but he's not there yet in my opinion.

While I very strongly disagree with everything you said there, the fact that you don?t include Sundin is hilarious.

I mean, should I have listed every player that's ever been good for Toronto? Forgot a few. Forgot Clark too.

Please elaborate on why you strongly disagree? I have no issue seeing the other side of it.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Are we talking the most skilled player or the greatest player? In my world, those two are not equal. Matthews may very well be the most skilled, but I wouldn't put him in the upper echelon overall for "greatness" just yet.

I can somewhat understand not committing to calling him the greatest Leaf ever, but to suggest he's not in the upper echelon is absurd.

Again, it depends what you think it takes to be gain access to the upper echelon. If you're just looking at pure skill and a couple good seasons, he's in there. But if you're looking at complete careers, there's quite a few that I think have contributed more to the Toronto Maple Leafs than Matthews.

Players like Borje Salming, Darryl Sittler, Dave Keon, Frank Mahovilich, Doug Gilmour, George Armstrong, Johnny Bower, Red Kelly, Ted Kennedy, Syl Apps in my opinion have contributed more to the organization as a whole than Matthews has. Matthews certainly has the potential to do so, and seems to be on the trajectory to be in the top few, but he's not there yet in my opinion.

Gilmour: 392 games as a Leaf (1 Selke)
Matthews: 409 games as a Leaf (2 Richard, 1 Lindsay, 1 Hart)

Matthews led the team to its best season ever. 

Gilmour: LEGEND!. Matthews......potentially in the upper echelon?? ?\_(?)_/?

Didn't use the word Legend, but he's treated like one(rightly or wrongly). Perhaps because of where he brought the Leafs when he got there. Someone said above that the Leafs are coming off their best season ever. I'm sorry, their best seasons were the ones they advanced as deep into the playoffs as possible. Gilmour was a huge part of that. In 92/93 he had 35 points in 21 games. In 93/94 he had 28 points in 18 games. Back to back conference finals. Two of very few seasons in the past 55 where the leafs have actually been close to being champions again.

Matthews goes down with a career ending injury tomorrow, is he a "legend" as you put it? Is he a HHOFer? With absolutely no playoff success? Like I said, in my opinion, and it's only my opinion, he'd be remembered as one of the most skilled Leafs ever. Start having team success and I'll happily call him one of the greatest of all time.

 

[berserker]

Less skilled players have shown more
heart.  That is what we need to see.
to make any of this team a legend.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Are we talking the most skilled player or the greatest player? In my world, those two are not equal. Matthews may very well be the most skilled, but I wouldn't put him in the upper echelon overall for "greatness" just yet.

I can somewhat understand not committing to calling him the greatest Leaf ever, but to suggest he's not in the upper echelon is absurd.

Again, it depends what you think it takes to be gain access to the upper echelon. If you're just looking at pure skill and a couple good seasons, he's in there. But if you're looking at complete careers, there's quite a few that I think have contributed more to the Toronto Maple Leafs than Matthews.

Players like Borje Salming, Darryl Sittler, Dave Keon, Frank Mahovilich, Doug Gilmour, George Armstrong, Johnny Bower, Red Kelly, Ted Kennedy, Syl Apps in my opinion have contributed more to the organization as a whole than Matthews has. Matthews certainly has the potential to do so, and seems to be on the trajectory to be in the top few, but he's not there yet in my opinion.

Gilmour: 392 games as a Leaf (1 Selke)
Matthews: 409 games as a Leaf (2 Richard, 1 Lindsay, 1 Hart)

Matthews led the team to its best season ever. 

Gilmour: LEGEND!. Matthews......potentially in the upper echelon?? ?\_(?)_/?

Have to agree with you. What we are witnessing is something we may never see again. Matthews is arguably the best goal scorer in Leafs history. He's already 9th all time. He's #1 in G/Gm, 2nd in Pts/Gm just behind Gilmour. Playoff success has def aided in the legend of Gilmour and I'm not taking away from him. He was awesome. Matthews is awesome as well and is in that category as well.

Your key word there is "witnessing", as it's still being written. I have no doubt that he can get there.