Contracts for the Big-3

[Bill_Berg]

Seriously what the hell is going on?  I don't think anyone envisioned the stalemate to go on this long. I can't believe Nylander is willing to sacrifice an entire season of NHL hockey over this.  I can see how Dubas will stick to his guns, he's not going to suddenly cave to a higher salary, or trade Nylander for the sake of getting "something" back.

A bridge deal just makes sense here.  Sign a 2 year bridge, if Nylander performs at a point a game pace over those 2 seasons I'm sure he would leapfrog Marner on this next contract since the cap will have increased over those 2 seasons.  I don't see what the holdup is?

I think it's pretty clear that one side or both sides think they can get a better deal by waiting it out. We have no idea which side might think that or if they're right.

I wonder if there is a steady offer from some team that is higher than what the Leafs are offering. And Nylander figures the Leafs either match, or trade him to that team.

That's not how it would work. If some better offer is out there from another team they have to offer up enough compensation to the Leafs for the Leafs to consider it. They won't just trade him for the sake of doing it.

I'm not saying an offer sheet. Teams are allowed to talk to RFAs. They could give him the sheey, he doesn't sign it, but sees the dollars and knows he's got that in his back pocket. So he waits for the Leafs to match without signing the actual offer sheet.

The team would have to be willing to pay Nylander a large number AND give up good assets for him. That's a huge ask of any other team. Given that there hasn't been a sniff of an offer sheet I say that list of teams is slim to none.

If they think he's worth the money, then that's separate from what he would cost in a trade.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

The team would have to be willing to pay Nylander a large number AND give up good assets for him. That's a huge ask of any other team. Given that there hasn't been a sniff of an offer sheet I say that list of teams is slim to none.

Again, the lack of an offer sheet means nothing. By all reports the Canes are practically begging the Leafs to consider trading him, so you have to believe that there's at least one team willing to pay Nylander what he wants. Especially since they've reportedly talked to his agent. Maybe it's not $8mil, but they're probably more willing to go into the 7's than the Leafs are.

 

[Zee]

The team would have to be willing to pay Nylander a large number AND give up good assets for him. That's a huge ask of any other team. Given that there hasn't been a sniff of an offer sheet I say that list of teams is slim to none.

Again, the lack of an offer sheet means nothing. By all reports the Canes are practically begging the Leafs to consider trading him, so you have to believe that there's at least one team willing to pay Nylander what he wants. Especially since they've reportedly talked to his agent. Maybe it's not $8mil, but they're probably more willing to go into the 7's than the Leafs are.

Dubas would only trade him if he gets equal or better value back and Fish-man ain't it. Money is one thing but the Canes (or any or team) have to be willing to give in order to get. This isn't Peter Chiarelli you're trading with

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Dubas would only trade him if he gets equal or better value back and Fish-man ain't it. Money is one thing but the Canes (or any or team) have to be willing to give in order to get. This isn't Peter Chiarelli you're trading with

Dubas wouldn't trade him for peanuts, no. But if we're sitting at November 28th and Nylander and Dubas still can't find common ground despite the fact that Nylander maybe found it with Carolina, then I'd imagine there'd be a heck of a lot of pressure for Dubas to get the best he can before losing Nylander's services for the season. At some point, it also wouldn't really surprise me if a trade request was made.

And really if the Canes are as serious as they appear to be about Nylander then they're probably willing to pay a fair price to acquire him. I'm not really sure what you're referring to with "fish-man".

 

[Zee]

Dubas would only trade him if he gets equal or better value back and Fish-man ain't it. Money is one thing but the Canes (or any or team) have to be willing to give in order to get. This isn't Peter Chiarelli you're trading with

Dubas wouldn't trade him for peanuts, no. But if we're sitting at November 28th and Nylander and Dubas still can't find common ground despite the fact that Nylander maybe found it with Carolina, then I'd imagine there'd be a heck of a lot of pressure for Dubas to get the best he can before losing Nylander's services for the season. At some point, it also wouldn't really surprise me if a trade request was made.

And really if the Canes are as serious as they appear to be about Nylander then they're probably willing to pay a fair price to acquire him. I'm not really sure what you're referring to with "fish-man".

Pesce is fish in Italian.


To your point about pressure on Dubas to get the best he can, pressure from who? Shanahan is on board with the strategy, unless owners step in and force them to trade they will wait instead of getting anything they can

 

[CarltonTheBear]

To your point about pressure on Dubas to get the best he can, pressure from who? Shanahan is on board with the strategy, unless owners step in and force them to trade they will wait instead of getting anything they can

Shanny's on board with the strategy sure, but I'm just saying that it's possible the strategy isn't going to work. It's absolutely possible they won't be able to sign Nylander at a price that they think is fair. No blame on either side from me. Maybe the Leafs are being stingy. Maybe Nylander is being greedy. But there was always going to be a plan B here and at some point soon the Leafs might need to explore it. I never would have thought I'd say that even just a month ago, but here we are.

 

[Zee]

To your point about pressure on Dubas to get the best he can, pressure from who? Shanahan is on board with the strategy, unless owners step in and force them to trade they will wait instead of getting anything they can

Shanny's on board with the strategy sure, but I'm just saying that it's possible the strategy isn't going to work. It's absolutely possible they won't be able to sign Nylander at a price that they think is fair. No blame on either side from me. Maybe the Leafs are being stingy. Maybe Nylander is being greedy. But there was always going to be a plan B here and at some point soon the Leafs might need to explore it. I never would have thought I'd say that even just a month ago, but here we are.

Justin Bourne who worked closely with Dubas on the Marlies said just today he could see Dubas being stubborn enough to let Nylander sit all year rather than be forced into a trade.  It would suck not to have him this season, but you can treat it like a player suffering a season ending injury, you hope he's back good as new next year.

 

[Bill_Berg]

To your point about pressure on Dubas to get the best he can, pressure from who? Shanahan is on board with the strategy, unless owners step in and force them to trade they will wait instead of getting anything they can

Shanny's on board with the strategy sure, but I'm just saying that it's possible the strategy isn't going to work. It's absolutely possible they won't be able to sign Nylander at a price that they think is fair. No blame on either side from me. Maybe the Leafs are being stingy. Maybe Nylander is being greedy. But there was always going to be a plan B here and at some point soon the Leafs might need to explore it. I never would have thought I'd say that even just a month ago, but here we are.

Justin Bourne who worked closely with Dubas on the Marlies said just today he could see Dubas being stubborn enough to let Nylander sit all year rather than be forced into a trade.  It would suck not to have him this season, but you can treat it like a player suffering a season ending injury, you hope he's back good as new next year.

I feel like that's the least likely thing to happen.

 

[Zee]

To your point about pressure on Dubas to get the best he can, pressure from who? Shanahan is on board with the strategy, unless owners step in and force them to trade they will wait instead of getting anything they can

Shanny's on board with the strategy sure, but I'm just saying that it's possible the strategy isn't going to work. It's absolutely possible they won't be able to sign Nylander at a price that they think is fair. No blame on either side from me. Maybe the Leafs are being stingy. Maybe Nylander is being greedy. But there was always going to be a plan B here and at some point soon the Leafs might need to explore it. I never would have thought I'd say that even just a month ago, but here we are.

Justin Bourne who worked closely with Dubas on the Marlies said just today he could see Dubas being stubborn enough to let Nylander sit all year rather than be forced into a trade.  It would suck not to have him this season, but you can treat it like a player suffering a season ending injury, you hope he's back good as new next year.

I feel like that's the least likely thing to happen.

I'll ask you again on November 30th

 

[Bill_Berg]

To your point about pressure on Dubas to get the best he can, pressure from who? Shanahan is on board with the strategy, unless owners step in and force them to trade they will wait instead of getting anything they can

Shanny's on board with the strategy sure, but I'm just saying that it's possible the strategy isn't going to work. It's absolutely possible they won't be able to sign Nylander at a price that they think is fair. No blame on either side from me. Maybe the Leafs are being stingy. Maybe Nylander is being greedy. But there was always going to be a plan B here and at some point soon the Leafs might need to explore it. I never would have thought I'd say that even just a month ago, but here we are.

Justin Bourne who worked closely with Dubas on the Marlies said just today he could see Dubas being stubborn enough to let Nylander sit all year rather than be forced into a trade.  It would suck not to have him this season, but you can treat it like a player suffering a season ending injury, you hope he's back good as new next year.

I feel like that's the least likely thing to happen.

I'll ask you again on November 30th

I'll be in Sweden with a pitchfork! Or Toronto, depends on what the latest 'insider' word is.

 

[sickbeast]

Dubas would only trade him if he gets equal or better value back and Fish-man ain't it. Money is one thing but the Canes (or any or team) have to be willing to give in order to get. This isn't Peter Chiarelli you're trading with

Dubas wouldn't trade him for peanuts, no. But if we're sitting at November 28th and Nylander and Dubas still can't find common ground despite the fact that Nylander maybe found it with Carolina, then I'd imagine there'd be a heck of a lot of pressure for Dubas to get the best he can before losing Nylander's services for the season. At some point, it also wouldn't really surprise me if a trade request was made.

And really if the Canes are as serious as they appear to be about Nylander then they're probably willing to pay a fair price to acquire him. I'm not really sure what you're referring to with "fish-man".

Honestly if it were me and I were in Dubas' situation on November 28th I would probably let Nylander sit for the season before accepting even a remotely bad deal.  It would give the Leafs cap space and they could add a rental to fill Nylander's space for this season if they have to.  Or make another move.  Nylander is far from the be all and end all.  The team has done just fine without him quite honestly.  If he comes back he's got to take someone else's spot.  It's disruptive and in a way you're rewarding someone for acting like a baby.  These other players worked hard, showed up at camp, and are contributing to the team.

It would be interesting to see what Nylander did from there.  Sitting him out for the season might just be the solution at this point.  Unless Carolina offers up a king's ransom.  It's really the eternal why with them though.  Why do that?  It doesn't make sense to me, at all.  If the Leafs aren't willing to pay Nylander $8 while losing no assets, why on earth would Caronlina offer up a king's ransom for that privilege?  It reeks of desperation and stupidity, IMO.  And I doubt they are that desperate or that stupid.

 

[ZBBM]

Dubas would only trade him if he gets equal or better value back and Fish-man ain't it. Money is one thing but the Canes (or any or team) have to be willing to give in order to get. This isn't Peter Chiarelli you're trading with

Dubas wouldn't trade him for peanuts, no. But if we're sitting at November 28th and Nylander and Dubas still can't find common ground despite the fact that Nylander maybe found it with Carolina, then I'd imagine there'd be a heck of a lot of pressure for Dubas to get the best he can before losing Nylander's services for the season. At some point, it also wouldn't really surprise me if a trade request was made.

And really if the Canes are as serious as they appear to be about Nylander then they're probably willing to pay a fair price to acquire him. I'm not really sure what you're referring to with "fish-man".

Honestly if it were me and I were in Dubas' situation on November 28th I would probably let Nylander sit for the season before accepting even a remotely bad deal.  It would give the Leafs cap space and they could add a rental to fill Nylander's space for this season if they have to.  Or make another move.  Nylander is far from the be all and end all.  The team has done just fine without him quite honestly.  If he comes back he's got to take someone else's spot.  It's disruptive and in a way you're rewarding someone for acting like a baby.  These other players worked hard, showed up at camp, and are contributing to the team.

It would be interesting to see what Nylander did from there.  Sitting him out for the season might just be the solution at this point.  Unless Carolina offers up a king's ransom.  It's really the eternal why with them though.  Why do that?  It doesn't make sense to me, at all.  If the Leafs aren't willing to pay Nylander $8 while losing no assets, why on earth would Caronlina offer up a king's ransom for that privilege?  It reeks of desperation and stupidity, IMO.  And I doubt they are that desperate or that stupid.

I actually agree with the substance this, minus the silly 29 bashing.

Nylander is a very, very good player and it's unlikely that any trade for him would bring back equal value for him.  Why do it then?  If I were Dubas, with about a week to go I would quietly let Nylander know -- directly -- that I had no intention of trading him.  I'd tell him we want him to join the team, and hope he'll take this, my final offer for the 2018-9 season, but if he declines I'll wish him well and have a great season in the KHL or wherever.

Maybe after a few days of contemplating the thrills of Magnitigorsk, Russian air travel, and  relative obscurity, he'll see things in a new light.  And if not, try again next year.

 

[Kin]

Carolina might be willing to give up a substantial amount to get Nylander because they may think of him as a 22 year old top line centre or at least as someone with the potential to be one. We know this isn't that radical a view as prior to the Leafs drafting Matthews a lot of people here thought the same thing.

At that point it becomes a pretty simple equation. If the Leafs were currently where they were a few years back, desperate to fill that #1 C spot, then ask yourself how much you'd have given up to fill it with a 22 year old who looked capable of doing the job for 10+ years.

If Dubas has his back to the wall and his options are either take a 1st, 2nd and 3rd for Nylander or match a five year/8 million aav offer then Carolina could get Nylander for a very reasonable price.

 

[Kin]

Nylander is a very, very good player and it's unlikely that any trade for him would bring back equal value for him.  Why do it then?

Because you may be doing it just so you get something better than just RFA compensation.

Let's say you let Nylander sit and his response is along the lines of saying he'll never play for the Leafs again. Does that help his trade value? Does it strengthen the Leafs' position? Or at that point are the Leafs prepared to let a very valuable asset play in the KHL for the years where their current core will be best positioned to compete?

 

[cabber24]

I prefer him to miss the season than to settle for a trade right now.

 

[ZBBM]

Nylander is a very, very good player and it's unlikely that any trade for him would bring back equal value for him.  Why do it then?

Because you may be doing it just so you get something better than just RFA compensation.

Let's say you let Nylander sit and his response is along the lines of saying he'll never play for the Leafs again. Does that help his trade value? Does it strengthen the Leafs' position? Or at that point are the Leafs prepared to let a very valuable asset play in the KHL for the years where their current core will be best positioned to compete?

I think Dubas would be very justified in thinking that Nylander is not going to want to play in the KHL at all, let alone for years.  If he were Russian, different story.  So it's hardly the case that Dubas's back is against the wall any more than Nylander's is.

BTW has there ever been a non-Russian player with NHL experience who turned down the chance to play again in the NHL again to play in the KHL?  I honestly don't know.

 

[princedpw]

Well, I hope that Dubas acts without emotion in this situation, and I have no reason to think he won?t.  Don?t worry about ?getting a win? or ?stubbornly showing who is right?.  Just evaluate the asset and use it in a way that maximizes what the leafs get out of it. I can?t say what the right thing to do is because despite the rumors, I really have no idea what each side is asking for.  I am surprised that Nylander?s not back simply because if I were him, I?d want to be playing hockey with my friends. Even if I didn?t think it was fair, I?d give up 10% (or 20% or whatever) of my expected salary to play this year. I probably wouldn?t want to give up 10% over 6-8 years. So a bridge deal is what I would look for.  But obviously Nylander isn?t me.

 

[princedpw]

I prefer him to miss the season than to settle for a trade right now.

It has got to depend on what you get back in the trade. Dougie Hamilton and a first would be pretty attractive.

 

[Kin]

I think Dubas would be very justified in thinking that Nylander is not going to want to play in the KHL at all, let alone for years.  If he were Russian, different story.  So it's hardly the case that Dubas's back is against the wall any more than Nylander's is.

At this point, I think we're sort of past the point where what usually happens in these situations is all that much help. Do non-Russians usually go play in the KHL? Nope. Do RFAs of any kind usually last unsigned this long? Nope.

Regardless, the KHL here is something of a red herring. What if, as I suggest, Nylander is also willing to sit out for the year but decides never to play for the Leafs again? What options do the Leafs have at that point? Does that make the return on Nylander likely to get any better?

If the Leafs want to trade Nylander then realistically they have three options here. Trade him now, sign him and trade him or let him sit and then trade him. The reason you might trade him now is because he's probably more valuable now than he would be after missing a full year.

 

[Kin]

Especially if this really sours Nylander's relationship with the team. If, for example, Nylander signed an offer sheet tomorrow for 5 years/40 million I think the general idea is the Leafs would probably match, grumble a little at Nylander's paycheck but prefer paying him more than they'd like over getting stuck with a crappy return for him.

If, however, Nylander really doesn't want to come back to Toronto and signs that offer sheet it makes for kind of a different calculation. Do you match and bring in a disgruntled, unhappy player earning 10% of the cap? Or do you let him walk for a 1st, 2nd and 3rd.